Heresy 6

[Lummel]

The importance of the moon ... our moon creates balance, our earth could not be lived upon if we lost the influence of the moon. The moon influences ebb and flood and it can influence great floods, hammer of waters.

Yes but even those exceptionally high or low tides would be regular like spring and neap tides unless the moon itself was swooping down out of it's orbit and back again...so we should still see hammer of the water extreme tides if that was the case. A passing comet to cause the same would have to be very big and flying very low....so I think a meteor strike or, **waves hands**, a wizard did it might make better sense.

[Lummel]

We've started to wonder whether the White Walkers and the Wights might not be connected after all. What if it was something that Mance's lot did that started the raising of the dead rather than the White lot?

Dunno. Samwell 1 ASOS thinks "The dead have no mercy in them, and the Others...no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk" which suggests to me that both were involved in the attack on the fist of the first men, though the wights seem to have been used as the expendables. The white walker at the end of the chapter is riding a wight horse (OK that's a weak association).

I noticed in the prologue that Sam says that the three horn call hasn't been used for hundreds and thousands of years which is an interesting contrast to Mormont's mention of white walkers having been seen on the shore in AGOT. But that could just be the difference in perspective from a southerner and a newcomer to the Wall versus an old hand who has been up on the Wall for a long time.

Still if the White walkers and the wights have been around for a long time then up till now they can't have been very interested in attacking men seeing how deadly they seem to be so clearly something has changed.

[Black Crow]

White Walkers/Rangers riding dead horses was certainly mentioned in Old Nan's stories, but it might just have been opportunistic. Its just an odd incident all round. First Mormont and his rangers are preparing to start harrying and destroying Mance's trek as it comes down out of the Milkwater and just hours before they're due to saddle up and get stuck in, the Wights attack and overrun the Fist, clearing the way for Mance. In the chaos that follows a single White Ranger appears out of the murk, dismounts but instead of behaving all savage and bloodthirsty ends up killing Small Paul in defence before Sam accidentally offs him in the confusion.

It just seems odd that the White Walkers/Rangers should be around for so long with nary a Wight in sight until Mance starts grave-robbing and according to Ygritte releases shadows

[Eyron]

While I know that I was one to propose early in one of the first threads that the white walkers seem to be herding the free folk and clearing the way for Mance's people, I have never been quite sure what to believe about it.

Mormont had put up torches around the ringwall that could be seen from afar, with the intention to be visible for Benjen if he was still out there. That was the purpose he told Jon. But we know from Coldhands that one should not light fires up there because it draws the attention of the wights (maybe he meant the white walkers too, I'm not sure) so Mormonts choice of strategy was effectively telling everyone and their (m)other where to go to kill off the Night's Watch... So they would probably have come regardless of Mance's approach I think.

To me it has always seemed like there is a close connection between the white walkers and the wights but it's not perfectly clear yet. I recently wrote this in another thread but, in the episode of the Fist the WWs seemed to wait in the woods and just let the wights do the job of attacking, themselves waiting until the brothers fled, then picking off the ones lagging behind. It really seems like they are predators hunting to me, coming back to the idea of herds, picking off the weak and vulnerable, never attacking the big mass. They hunt like wolves I think. When Royce fought the white walkers it was very similar to when Summer meets his wolfpack, then led by Varamyr. A stranger challenging the pack, fights the leader, the others waiting to see were the victory falls.

And they stay under the trees, so far.

I wonder what will happen if they decide to attack the Wall, will they only send wights or will they come out of the woods? What if the eventual battle drags on for days, where will they go during the daytime? I'm back to the words describing the Night's King being only a man by day and a King during the night, maybe they turn to men (or a heap of bones/water) during the day? hmm... Will they wait until night lasts all day? What do they do for leisure?

I guess I just bring a lot of questions old and new :)

[hotweaselsoup]

It just seems odd that the White Walkers/Rangers should be around for so long with nary a Wight in sight until Mance starts grave-robbing and according to Ygritte releases shadows

Hmm. I got the impression that Mance was organizing the wildlings in response to increased attacks by White Walkers and/or wights - and the unification of the wildlings began long before they went in search of the Horn of Winter, I think. Moreover, the fake horn was found in a giant's grave, so if there are any extra shades loose in the world, they should be giants' ghosts, right?

[Lummel]

the white walker is killed by Sam just before day break...if only he had waited we might have found out.

Old Nan's story says that the white walkers led armies of the slain, but as it stands that seems to be the strongest evidence that they are assoicated.

[Eyron]

Hm, so the white walkers following Mormonts retreat were say monitoring the situation and nothing more than bystanders? Or helping them? Shoo shoo, go on little brothers, the wights are at your tail! :) Possible, but I'm not betting on it.

The white cold seems at least connected to the white walkers and it was present on the fist before the attack, the cold came first (the cold smell of death!), and it wouldn't have to just for the sake of the wights, they do well without the cold it seems. Like Othor and Jafer at Castle Black. So to me it seems that the white walkers were there, hiding in the woods and sending the wights first. The wights are like the Umbers of the Ice lot. They want to go first.

I guess the white cold is not necessarily connected to the white walkers but it seems they can't go outside of it, and the white cold follows them around at least.

[Eyron]

Hmm. I got the impression that Mance was organizing the wildlings in response to increased attacks by White Walkers and/or wights - and the unification of the wildlings began long before they went in search of the Horn of Winter, I think. Moreover, the fake horn was found in a giant's grave, so if there are any extra shades loose in the world, they should be giants' ghosts, right?

They went digging for the horn after they had already assembled up in the Frostfangs so I also think the wights and walkers appeared earlier.

I like the idea of giants ghosts! I like the giants over all... The giants were not skinchangers I think so their ghosts probably can't come back, but something may happen to their bones if they were dug up, the bones remember.

[hotweaselsoup]

the white walker is killed by Sam just before day break...if only he had waited we might have found out.

Old Nan's story says that the white walkers led armies of the slain, but as it stands that seems to be the strongest evidence that they are assoicated.

I'm still thinking that the white walkers lead the dead only because they cannot abide in the warmth of living beings. And riffing off the other thread about Coldhands, I'm starting to wonder if Coldhands, and others like him, were created to fight against the Others. Living, warm-blooded men stand no chance against the white cold. But Coldhands-like dead men (what is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger...) might be able to fight the white walkers.

What if that was the help the Children gave the Last Hero? Not some puny magic glass daggers, but the ritual that killed the Last Hero and made him rise again as a Coldhands? And maybe the original Night's Watch, who rode against the others in the Battle for the Dawn, was a cadre of these dead and black-handed warriors? Their blood is black...

And maybe the Night's King was dead from the start, and that's why he could love the white walker queen?

--

Some other thoughts, unrelated: I love all the speculation about the moon, and the idea that there might be a second, hidden moon 'round back of the planet. I also wonder about the mysterious moonsingers who led the escaped Valyrian slaves to safety in Braavos. Who the heck were these folks? We have the CotF who sing the songs of the earth, but now we have these others who perhaps sing the songs of the moon? Do the earth singers somehow control the seasons with their songs? Likewise, do the moonsingers control the moon(s) somehow? Also, interestingly, I think there is one other mention of someone singing to the moon: Nymeria does it. Are the moonsingers connected to the wolves, somehow?

On the weirwoods: I think I remember a passage where all the regular trees are described as bare-branched due to the changing seasons, but I don't remember reading that the weirwoods drop their leaves in the fall. We know that the weirwoods have red, hand-shaped leaves - and if they don't drop them at the turn of the seasons, does that imply that the weirwoods don't depend on sunlight (photosynthesis) at all? Could it be that the weirwoods need blood to live?

Does anybody else think that Nagga's "bones" are maybe not bones at all, but rather a petrified grove of weirwood trunks?

---

ETA: who was Craster's first wife? Is it this first wife that maybe carried the Stark cold gene, and not Craster at all?

[Lummel]

What if that was the help the Children gave the Last Hero? Not some puny magic glass daggers, but the ritual that killed the Last Hero and made him rise again as a Coldhands? And maybe the original Night's Watch, who rode against the others in the Battle for the Dawn, was a cadre of these dead and black-handed warriors? Their blood is black...

And maybe the Night's King was dead from the start, and that's why he could love the white walker queen?

Now that is a thought! Ties back into our sacrifical king idea too.

[Black Crow]

Hm, so the white walkers following Mormonts retreat were say monitoring the situation and nothing more than bystanders? Or helping them? Shoo shoo, go on little brothers, the wights are at your tail! :) Possible, but I'm not betting on it.

The white cold seems at least connected to the white walkers and it was present on the fist before the attack, the cold came first (the cold smell of death!), and it wouldn't have to just for the sake of the wights, they do well without the cold it seems. Like Othor and Jafer at Castle Black. So to me it seems that the white walkers were there, hiding in the woods and sending the wights first. The wights are like the Umbers of the Ice lot. They want to go first.

I guess the white cold is not necessarily connected to the white walkers but it seems they can't go outside of it, and the white cold follows them around at least.

I still reckon its the White Cold that that's the crucial element. There's something about it that raises the dead.

[Black Crow]

What if that was the help the Children gave the Last Hero? Not some puny magic glass daggers, but the ritual that killed the Last Hero and made him rise again as a Coldhands?

I did suggest earlier that what they may have done was chill him down - like Adara - which would help explain where the "Wolf Blood" comes from

[Elaena Targaryen]

1. Why do we think that Mormont took the men north of the Wall to stop wildings when he knew that WW have been sighted and are around? Why didn't he focus on the WW since they are supposed to be the problem?

2. I don't think the wights are a newer occurrence because the wildings burn their dead and that seems like a long tradition.

3. Does the "white cold" only come at night? This could be why the WW only come at night or they can not abide the day and bring the "white cold" with them at night.

4. The disscusion about the NK being a man by day (and are the WW like this also) and the WW hunting like a pack of wolves could connect back to Starks, if there are Starks involved that stayed north of the Wall.

[hotweaselsoup]

I did suggest earlier that what they may have done was chill him down - like Adara - which would help explain where the "Wolf Blood" comes from

Yeah, I think so too. But I don't think the "cold blood" and the "wolf blood" are the same, maybe.

[Black Crow]

Mormont had put up torches around the ringwall that could be seen from afar, with the intention to be visible for Benjen if he was still out there. That was the purpose he told Jon. But we know from Coldhands that one should not light fires up there because it draws the attention of the wights (maybe he meant the white walkers too, I'm not sure) so Mormonts choice of strategy was effectively telling everyone and their (m)other where to go to kill off the Night's Watch... So they would probably have come regardless of Mance's approach I think.

True, but why attack when they did. Why when they'd been sitting there on top of the hill for so long, were they attacked just hours before they were about to move out to attack Mance and his trek?

[Black Crow]

Why do we think that Mormont took the men north of the Wall to stop wildings when he knew that WW have been sighted and are around? Why didn't he focus on the WW since they are supposed to be the problem?

His apparent lack of concern over the White Walkers seen at Eastwatch suggests that he regarded them just as a part of the bigger picture rather than a threat in themselves. Mance and his people on the other hand constituted a definite threat.

[Eyron]

I still reckon its the White Cold that that's the crucial element. There's something about it that raises the dead.

I agree, the white cold is what raises them as wights definitely, but it could come from the white walkers or from the same source that sustain them.

HWS, Many nice ideas in you post! I like the idea of the creation of Coldhands being the Childrens way to help too, it's probably why the Night's Watch men should say their oath in front of the weirwood. It could be what protects them from becoming wights if they die, or something like it.

Elaena, about #1) Mormont's strategy was to take out as many wildlings as possible before they reached the Wall, so they wouldn't breach it. That would have opened the door for everything that wanted to come south. He was just trying to protect the Wall I think.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I think so too. But I don't think the "cold blood" and the "wolf blood" are the same, maybe.

Not directly, no. But if he was chilled down like Adara, that would have facilitated his - or his son/grandson's liaison with the white lady and the Wolf's Blood comes from that liaison

[Eyron]

True, but why attack when they did. Why when they'd been sitting there on top of the hill for so long, were they attacked just hours before they were about to move out to attack Mance and his trek?

I don't know, but why didn't they attack right away? Why wait? Maybe they were some distance away, maybe the cold needed to build up. Or maybe they were waiting to see what they were up to, sitting up on that hill. It's hard to speculate on the motivations on the white walkers, but I don't think the timing of the attack says much about it. As I recall it, a little earlier that night the brothers of the Watch had all stood up and raised their voices to the oath, so maybe that set things in motion? Maybe the white walkers knew that tune.

[hotweaselsoup]

Not directly, no. But if he was chilled down like Adara, that would have facilitated his - or his son/grandson's liaison with the white lady and the Wolf's Blood comes from that liaison

Ah! Last Hero becomes coldified ---> Night's King (fearless, 'cause he's dead) ---> chases foxy white walker lady warg through forest (the beast must have two backs!) ----> Starklings (some of whom have the wolf blood* from Mom, some of whom have the cold blood** from Dad, and some very few of whom - jonsnow - have both). I like it, Black Crow, yes indeedy I do.

*wolf blood = warging, or skinchanging ability

**cold blood = ability to live despite your blood being frozen solid, maybe? Dead, but not dead - cryogenic awakeness?

Interesting that we have a sort of human/animal (wolf)/element (ice) combo working here. Like the human/animal (dragon)/element (fire) combo working on the other side.