Manberg900 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 ***Please do not read if you haven't finished ASOS.****Ok so the end of the book bugged me a lot and I had a ton of questions. In my other thread I talked about Catelyns death and Resurrection and how it was possible at all. Horza posed this question to me, 'who else has had trouble staying dead recently?' So that got me thinking a lot and I started doing some digging, going back into the chapters surrounding Cats death and after.My obvious first thought in response to Horza was that it had to have been Lord Beric. But it actually goes much deeper than that. I had to go back to the Arya Chapter where Beric fights the Hound. Here we learn more about the character Thoros, who worships the Lord of Light and has been the one bringing Dondarrion back so many times.He calls it, the Last Kiss when he tells Arya about it. And Arya ask him if he could bring any dead man back to life and Thoros says (in reference to Beric) that R'hllor is not done with him yet. When initially reading the chapter I figured it was just a reference to how Ned Stark will never be brought back but in hindsight it was clue and possibly a flat out explanation as to to what eventually happens with Catelyn.So let's fast forward to her death. I think she actually does die at the Red Wedding. Her throat is slit by one of the Freys men that much was clear. Then later in the book Tyrion is thinking about telling Sansa the details of Cats death and how the Freys then threw her naked body into the river to mock a Tully funeral. Fast forward to Arya having a wolf-dream that she is Nymeria (an aside: it is actually not confirmed, at least not as of ASOS, that Arya can do as Bran does and skinchange but I am just assuming that that is the case. I'm also assuming that if she can skinchange then she would naturally migrate to Nymeria. I believe this also is the Case with Jon Snow but that's another story). Anyways, so in Arya's wolf dream she sees the body of a naked woman and drags it out of the river. She also sees that the corpse throat is slit and bleeding. I think it's safe to assume that this was Catelyn because when Arya awakes she abandons all notions of going back to save her mother and says to the Hound that she knows she's dead. But let's jump back into the dream for this one last part: As Arya/Nymeria are inspecting the body she sees men coming and runs off.Based on the fact that "Catelyn 2" is with Lord Beric and his other men in the Epilogue, the men Nymeria sees had to have been these same men. And based on what Thoros has done for Lord Beric I believe that Thoros conducted the Last Kiss on Catelyn, thus ressurecting her. And as with Beric, Catelyn maintained the scars that led to her death, a slit throat.So that's my theory on the Catelyn situation. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 You're close. It's elaborated in one of the latter chapters in A Feast For Crows:... Beric gave Catelyn the 'kiss' in which he died, and resurrected Catelyn. Thoros couldn't, or didn't want to, help her anymore because she was way too damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The GRRumbler Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Spoilers from ADWD:And from what we see in Arya's later chapters she actually can skinchange, when she is blind and uses the cat to seet the kindly old man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manberg900 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I can't read the spoilers :( But I'm glad to know I'm close. I just started Feast. It's a little slow moving so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamiesRightHandMan Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I share the same theory as the OP. In the epilogue alone, Catlyn's character went straight to number one on my holy %$#@ whats going to happen next meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Very good, young padawan :DYou've got all the pieces to solve the riddle but one connection eludes you. I'll spoiler box a clue:You've miscounted in your final paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I can't read the spoilers :( But I'm glad to know I'm close. I just started Feast. It's a little slow moving so far.Yeah, the book has a slow pace and will keep that 'till the final 10/15 chapters. Nevertheless, I love the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manberg900 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yeah, the book has a slow pace and will keep that 'till the final 10/15 chapters. Nevertheless, I love the book.Thanks Horza!It's a little disappointing to hear that it's mostly slow however I have found the chapters after the first 2 very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Thanks Horza!It's a little disappointing to hear that it's mostly slow however I have found the chapters after the first 2 very interesting.Slow yeah, but that doesn't mean the book is uninteresting and boring. It might aswell be my favorite book, but there's less action and more talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainMan Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I can't read the spoilers :( But I'm glad to know I'm close. I just started Feast. It's a little slow moving so far.A Feast gets really good IMO. I think, and I'm really not sure because I have only read the series once, that Feast was my second favorite after Storm. All the political stuff with Cersci in KL and all the Jaime stuff in te riverlands is awesome! Just wait. It gets better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrette Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Manberg, I just finished ASoS, I have no idea what's going to happen in the following two books (spoiler virgin so far! :D) and I would agree to everything ou said. It's just as I understood it.To confirm your notion that Arya in her wolf dream has indeed found Catelyn and not some other dead woman is the fact that the transition starts with Arya missing her mother's smell and then she switches to wolf-sight and it says "...and then she does smell her". I also assume it is Nymeria and Nymeria knows Catelyn's smell and possibly even better than Arya does.So I conclude that Nymeria found her, dragged her to shore and that's where the Beric/Thoros gang found her and uhm... put her to new use.Apart from the major creep factor of that scene I wonder why Rh'llor (or whoever is really in charge of those decisions) chose to revive Catelyn, but not Eddard. I can't imagine it's all just about vengeance for the Red Wedding and what else can Catelyn do what Ned couldn't. All very mysterious and I'm glad I have AFFC right here to dive right in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 It would be tough to revive someone who's beheaded, I'd think. :cool4: In fact, Arya asked Thoros exactly this (“Could you bring back a man without a head?”) earlier in ASOS and he gave an evasive answer which she took to mean "No". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leto Atreides Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 What's with the spoilers from A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons? Obviously this is a discussion for those who have just finished reading A Storm Of Swords. Can't people speculate about something without someone coming in to say "I know everything: here".Anyway, I wonder if there is a link between the Others and R'hollor. Isn't Thoros a necromancer if he can revive the deads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fylimar Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Leto: I was asking myself the same question - about the connection between The Others and R'hyllor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Roaring Bear Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 What's with the spoilers from A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons? Obviously this is a discussion for those who have just finished reading A Storm Of Swords. Can't people speculate about something without someone coming in to say "I know everything: here".Anyway, I wonder if there is a link between the Others and R'hollor. Isn't Thoros a necromancer if he can revive the deads?At least the spoilers are in spoiler boxes and it is announced that they are from other books so we can choose to open them or not. Much better then when all you see posed is: *Spoiler* and then in the first couple words is a spoiler from ADWD or something and now you can not unread it.Your idea on R'hollor and the others is a good one, I hadn't thought of that. Some time back I had made a thread about what represents Ice and what represents fire. A great list was made and it was generally thought that all the things mentioned were representative of it yadda yadda yadda.. but one of those things was "The battle betwenn R'hollor and the Others". This felt wrong to me. Thinking of R'hollor and the others as similar though makes a bit more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrette Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 As far as I am concerned I believe that the Others are the opposite force of Rh'llor. Also because dragonstone (obsidian, dragons = fire) kills Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fylimar Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Yes, there is this enemy of Rh'ollor - the one, that Melisandre wouldn't call out by his name (could he be identical with the Stranger?). I thought, that maybe she thinks of the Others as his servant or his avatars - something like that. There must be a reason that Stannis showed up on the Wall - since he didn't do anything without consulting the red priestress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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