Who's to Blame for Joffrey's character?

[Raksha the Demon]

If a child is born to inherit either vast wealth, and/or a commercial empire, a throne, armies, etc., it is very important that the kid not be spoiled rotten as he or she grows up. There have to be some checks and balances on the heir's ego, a value system that convinces the heir that he/she cannot just throw that lovely power around for fun when he/she gets it and roll over the smallfolk just because he/she can...The growing child must be taught that With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility.

The Starks, at least Ned and his children, seemed to understand this, except poor little Rickon, who was too young. Joffrey was obviously not taught it, nor did this idea even remotely occur to him after he became king; far from it...

It's amazing that more kings and queens weren't complete monsters when they came into power. In medieval Europe at least, the power of the church, and the premise that there was a God above who would punish a future king for impiety, might have served as a check to an adult king's arrogance and a lesson to a growing child-prince that there was a religious structure on earth and in heaven that could and would judge him. And of course, much depended on the character not only of the parents of these future kings and queens, but on the characters of the governesses and tutors who taught the children.

[deleted01]

You know, when I was much younger I read a book about maniac's psychology (don't remember the exact name+ plus it wasn't in English), which was basically a research about sadists and necrophiliacs (not very nice read I know, but it was necessary for my education), the main point which was discovered is: their disorders not only started, but was discovered in childhood, because 95% (approx. don't remember the last number) per cent of there people were killing and/or torturing animals, when they were children, some of them had horrible parents, though. So one of the main signs that the child is not "normal" is a desire to or hurting animals. Whether it was incest that made some kind of genetic disorder or its just the combination of the Lannisters' genes, I don't know.

Aw that's a shame. I really enjoy reading about things like that - not in a sick way, but I'm curious to learn about things that are taboo and wrong in our culture. I've just bought a book called When Kids Kill, haven't started it yet but maybe it'll have some information to add to this discussion. It's the whole idea that they begin with things that are weaker than them - as children, only younger children or animals are weaker than them. As king, everyone was weaker than Joffrey.

[Ser Cortnay Penrose]

If you go to Wikipedia and read the list of the classical symptom criteria for psychopathy, you will see that they are a very good match for both Joffrey and Cersei. I think that GRRM has actually studied the traits of psycopathy himself when he created these two characters. So I think both Joffrey and Cersei are classical born psychopaths.

[deleted01]

If you go to Wikipedia and read the list of the classical symptom criteria for psychopathy, you will see that they are a very good match for both Joffrey and Cersei. I think that GRRM has actually studied the traits of psycopathy himself when he created these two characters. So I think both Joffrey and Cersei are classical born psychopaths.

Yeah definitely, but I'm reading this article: http://jennifercopley.suite101.com/causes-of-psychopathy-a62417 and it pretty much supports the idea that neither nature nor nurture are fully responsible for the development of psychopathy. Cersei definitely has some of the personality traits of a psychopath, and so I assume that Joffrey was born with those traits, and Cerseis' "nurture" encouraged those traits to the forefront.

It also says in that article that if one identical twin is psychopathic, the other is likely to be so as well. Is that the case for Cersei and Jaime? I wouldn't call Jaime psychopathic, but he does have some of the listed traits, as does Tywin. Interesting stuff.

[Ser Cortnay Penrose]

It also says in that article that if one identical twin is psychopathic, the other is likely to be so as well. Is that the case for Cersei and Jaime? I wouldn't call Jaime psychopathic, but he does have some of the listed traits, as does Tywin. Interesting stuff.

Well, if you are going by real world biology, Cersei and Jaime can't be identical twins since they are of opposite sex.

I think of Jaime more as a sosiopath in the first book, that he has evolved these traits as a result of the influence by his father and sister. He clearly has the ability to feel sympathy and remorse.

[deleted01]

Well, if you are going by real world biology, Cersei and Jaime can't be identical twins since they are of opposite sex.

I think of Jaime more as a sosiopath in the first book, that he has evolved these traits as a result of the influence by his father and sister. He clearly has the ability to feel sympathy and remorse.

Hmm, I learnt something today. I thought that so long as they were monozygotic, they were identical twins, regardless of their sex. Thanks :D

Yeah I agree, I wouldn't call Jaime a psychopath. I think he's pretty normal, except for the whole having-sex-with-his-sister and pushing-kids-out-of-windows thing, but normal people do horrible things I guess. He definitely can feel remorse, and it hurts him when people (Brienne) call him Kingslayer. He's much more likeable than Cersei and Tywin, which I wasn't expecting.

[Ser Cortnay Penrose]

I thought that so long as they were monozygotic, they were identical twins, regardless of their sex.

Monozygotic = identical twins. Monozygotic twins are always of the same sex.

[birdsong66]

Anyone who has ever seen a person in a very shitty situation succeed, despite *questionable* influences would agree that nature plays a big part in who a person is as well. So far, Jon Snow's a great example. Catelyn has very outwardly shit on him in every one of their interactions. Jon is led to believe that his dad is neglectful and lecherous, (though not nearly as much as Robert.) Yet Jon has conducted himself with quite a bit of honor and though he's made mistakes, he certainly not a Joffopath.

.....of which there was exactly one interaction, and hardly comparable to the Joff/Cerei dynamic. I disagree Jon is lead to believe Ned is either neglectful or lecherous, and I disagree that anyone else believes that. Jon conducts himself with honor because of Ned, and the rules of conducts he instilled in all of his and Catelyn's children.

Comparing Joffrey and Jon is apples to oranges, I'm afraid.

Jon=good nature that is nurtured well, while

Joff=bad nature that is nurtured well.

I really didn't care for Jon until ADwD, but even so, he's no Joff.

[Cap Ou Pas Cap]

Cersei was actively ruining Joffrey. If she just kept her "love" more for herself, he would have turned out average.

The one who had the most power to salvage Joffrey's character, but did nothing, was Robert.

A lot of people could have done something. The Hound could have used his influence to train Joffrey to be good at anything and to show him that skills and power come with a price. Tywin, Pycelle, Varys could have brought some nice boys of his age into court to teach Joffrey that you must earn a friendship/respect or whatever.

[The GreatRon]

Always found it interesting how Joff was such a coward when he might of had to actually get his hands dirty.

He knew how to make himself seem strong when he knew there was no way hed have to actually prove it, like with Robb in the yard.

Arya owns him

How Jamie and Cersei, his parents are both not cowardly at all.

How Jamie HATES archers and calls them cravens ---> Joff becomes obsessed with his crossbow.

[Gala]

You're right, The GreatRon! In fact, I think everyone her is right.

Only i would like to say something: how could Robert teach Joffrey not to take everything for granted, while he himself did so all the time? I think he wasn't that fatherly man at all. I mean he didn't know how to raise a child and actually didn't want to know. Well, truth be told, there are man like that in real world too (that doesn't mean they are bad or something, they just not ready, too selfish, not capable or something else).

[The GreatRon]

You're right, The GreatRon! In fact, I think everyone her is right.

Only i would like to say something: how could Robert teach Joffrey not to take everything for granted, while he himself did so all the time? I think he wasn't that fatherly man at all. I mean he didn't know how to raise a child and actually didn't want to know. Well, truth be told, there are man like that in real world too (that doesn't mean they are bad or something, they just not ready, too selfish, not capable or something else).

Yeh I agree I phrased that wrong with Robert, but I do believe he could have put Joff on a better path if he was more involved. Robert was not a cruel man if it didnt involve Targs.

[deleted01]

I can't blame other people who had no right in bringing up or teaching Joffrey, like the Hound or Ser Barristan, but he definitely could have looked to them for guidance or as role models. He didn't, or Cersei didn't allow him to, and that's not their fault. Pycelle was always a Lannister creature and Varys, well, I'm not sure about Varys haha

I don't think Robert was cruel either. He took the kingdom by force and had to make the realm believe that he would be able to hold it. It's a shame we never get anything from Roberts' POV, I think it would be quite fascinating to see how he dealt with everything. I like the point about Joffrey and the crossbow - did he know Jaime hated archers? It would make sense that he was trying to be the opposite of Jaime if he knew he was his father, but that's not the case. I also find it interesting that Joffrey was nearly everything Jaime hated :lol: That'll teach you for breeding with your sister!

[ghost the direwolf]

Cercei

Rob Baratheon

and finally Joffrey himself

[Queen Cersei I]

Classic nurture vs nature argument. Joffrey should bear responsibility for his actions, but so should Cersei. Robert was a neglectful lecher, but Cersei is a tick away from being a sociopath.

Actually, it was the neglectful lecher whose attention Joff was frequently trying to get through numerous acts of pointless brutality and sadism....

Killing a cat is pretty bad, but its not quite on par with having a 14 year old girl and her unborn child brutally murdered.

But then, King Bob was hesistant to off said girl by himself, so I guess that makes him.... better? I'd go with it making him a lousy role model and parent, every bit as much so as Cersei. And if one wonders where Joffrey got his ideas about smacking around women and those under him, one needs look no further than Robert.

Despite the vast amounts of affection and indulgence shown to him by Ned Stark, GRRM, and many readers in general, the adult Robert Baratheon struck me as a wholly selfish, violent, ruthless man covered by a thin layer of sentimentality (oh, beloved Lyanna!), joviality, and hardy har har.

[FanTasy]

Killing a cat is pretty bad, but its not quite on par with having a 14 year old girl and her unborn child brutally murdered.

But then, King Bob was hesistant to off said girl by himself, so I guess that makes him.... better?

I'm afraid that there is indeed a very big difference in ordering someone killed and in cutting with your own hands into a living being, proceeding while seeing, hearing and feeling the pain, fear and distress of your victim.

[MaryaStone]

I don't have any knowledge about psychiatry or psychology, but I have the impression that they kid wasn't normal, he was born like that and he wasn't really sane. If the cause had been only his parent's influence or the way he was brought up, Tommen and Myrcella wouldn't be normal children and it seems they are. Of course, he didn't have a good model to relate to as a masculine figure , because Robert neglected him, was very irresponsible and had no control on his life, his own excesses or anything else whatsoever. As for Cersei, we all know how vain, dishonest and morally questionable she is, as well as too permissive as regards Joff's bad habits and misbehaviour. If we add the fact that Cersei and Robert had a completely dysfunctional relationship with each other and with their children, it doesn't come as a surprise that their son had a less than adequate behaviour. In fact, it's surprising that Myrcella and Tommen turned out so well.

However, Joff isn't just a spoiled brat with and outrageous behaviour, he's a sociopath (or maybe a psycho?) in the making. Sorry if this is not the right medical term for his condition, I lack medical knowledge. There must have been something intrinsically wrong with him. I'm not saying he didn't know what he was doing was wrong and wasn't responsible for his actions; he probably was aware of that but he simply didn't care, he felt like doing evil actions and he did them because he could and had enough power to do what he wanted.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I'm afraid that there is indeed a very big difference in ordering someone killed and in cutting with your own hands into a living being, proceeding while seeing, hearing and feeling the pain, fear and distress of your victim.

Exactly. Which action is 'worse'? Most, myself including, would prioritize human life over animal life, so killing a 14 year old girl is worse than killing a cat. But as far as a signs of psychopathy go, killing animals at a young age is a huge flashing neon sign, while ordering a politically motivated murder is, unfortunately, quite evil but also sane.

The nature of violence is that it's easier to have someone killed when you don't have to see it. This is unfortunate, but if you keep a killing of a 14 year old at arm's length what you are doing is preventing yourself from having to feel empathy. If you cut a pregnant cat open and pull out its offspring, witnessing the animal's agony the entire time, you are absolutely without basic normal human empathy.

[deleted01]

Actually, it was the neglectful lecher whose attention Joff was frequently trying to get through numerous acts of pointless brutality and sadism....

Killing a cat is pretty bad, but its not quite on par with having a 14 year old girl and her unborn child brutally murdered.

But then, King Bob was hesistant to off said girl by himself, so I guess that makes him.... better? I'd go with it making him a lousy role model and parent, every bit as much so as Cersei. And if one wonders where Joffrey got his ideas about smacking around women and those under him, one needs look no further than Robert.

Despite the vast amounts of affection and indulgence shown to him by Ned Stark, GRRM, and many readers in general, the adult Robert Baratheon struck me as a wholly selfish, violent, ruthless man covered by a thin layer of sentimentality (oh, beloved Lyanna!), joviality, and hardy har har.

I disagree wholly. My interpretation of Robert was nowhere near that - he was a fool, drunken, a fan of squandering money and whoring about. But he did not "smack around women and those under him". He hit Cersei a few times we know of, and that's from her point of view, so we can't wholly trust it imho. And whoever says that nobody deserves a smack every now and again is a liar. Cersei was an utter bitch, are you telling me you wouldn't have smacked her in the mouth at least once? I'm not condoning violence, and Robert was much bigger and stronger than Cersei, but it's not as black-and-white as you seem to like to make it.

Robert was king, he had to get rid of the Targaryens in order to gain the throne. I don't agree with the idea that he ordered the death of two young Targaryens, and later the girl with her unborn child, but if he didn't, and they'd come over and taken the throne, the realm would have dissolved into war again (quite like what happened once he died, but I don't suppose he could have predicted that).

And actually, killing an innocent, harmless creature is worse than killing someone who is a threat to you and all you hold dear, cat or not. My view on that might not be popular but I quite frankly don't give a fuck - a cat won't harm you, it's completely innocent and much weaker than you. The level of depravity it requires to cut open a harmless animal is much worse than ordering the death of someone for the good of your country. The first is sadism and psychopathic, the second the way of war. In my opinion, of course.

[FanTasy]

Ordering the killing of two young children for political reasons is a bit hard to swallow.

My skin crawled when reading how Tywin told Tyrion about the ordering the killing of Rhaegar's children.

He (Tywin) had the nerve to say that the rape of Elia was unnecessary, that Gregor acted on his own because he had no instructions to not rape her. So this was not his (Tywin) blame.

But I wonder, what would Robert have done if the two children were not already 'offered' to him by Tywin Lannister, as a sign of his loyalty towards Robert?