birdsong66

I think, actually, what she said was there was no way Robb would trade two girls for the Kingslayer" which should be interpreted as "there is no way the men in charge are going to trade a known highborn swordsman to for two little girls with little political advantages." By which the idea that "girls aren't worth it" is defined. Which is why LF replied, "I'm not bringing this to Robb. I'm bringing it to you." Jaime being a valuable hostage is an illusion built on the idea that only men can be valuable hostages. Certainly the fact that Tywin did not immediately cease and desist after his capture shatters the idea that he was as valuable as everyone claims. He can't be traded, he can't be killed, he can't be returned. He's an albatross. Even Cercei won't trade for him. The only one willing to entertain the idea is Tyrion and obviously Catelyn, establishing these two characters as more similar than not, more practical and loyal than any of the other players. Tyrion is lauded for it, Catelyn is despised.

I really just want to address on thing about the internet and it's pros and cons as it relates to HBOGoT persons leaving twitter, etc. I own a business, and it just so happens that my business is in a creative field around which a number of well known, well used internet sites have been developed which allow for people to voice their opinions about how we do our thing. Because it is part of the overall world in which my business exists, I have to, from time to time, delve in and read what people write. Most of it is overwhelmingly positive, but there are those, for whatever reason, that spew so much vitriol that I can only wonder how awful it is to live a life in that person's skin. I mention all of this because the positive reviews are what we want, the bad ones are what we have to eat so that we understand the value of the positive ones. We knew this going in, we set ourselves up in the category for the site, and we take what we get. Sometimes we learn something, other times we don't. But never, EVER have we thought to close because someone didn't like what we did. We nutted up, rolled with the punch, got on with it. That is simply the nature of it. Sure it pissed us off, but most of that is a result of making the conscious choice not to engage in the argument and rather chalking it up to "we're not for you, sir" state of mind. It takes awhile to get used to not engaging, but I highly recommend trying it. So, to the HBOGoT people who find it all too overwhelming, really, here's a grain of salt..use it, because at the end of the day, your worst presentation is still 95% better than anything else of TV.

Tyrion had nothing to do with Ned's beheading, and she knows that much. She's not trusting the honor of Jaime in either the book or HBOGoT; She's trusting in Tyrion's honor because, in the book, he swore, in front of the entire court while sitting the Iron Throne, to return the girls unharmed, in time, if Jaime was returned in like manner to KL, and on HBO, returned Ned's bones to Catelyn as a measure/vow to support his intention to do the same. And a hostage who cannot be killed, maimed, released or traded isn't so much a valuable hostage as an albatross.

Oh, thank you, God, er, EvaMitchelle. Marrying someone other than a female member of the Frey clan seems to do the trick. Sending Theon to the Iron Islands is a suitable substitute. Putting cousin Alton in the same cage as The Kingslayer and providing only one guard which just happens to be the son of one of your bannermen who has already suffered the loss of another son will work in a pinch. Leaving camp to negotiate a surrender, but asking an unmarried nurse to accompany you, looks bad, is bad, and might just lead your allies to think you have failed to keep your eye on the ball, so thinking with your balls would also fall under harebrained if you find the previous options less to your liking.

I would say that Catelyn has shown an extrordinary amount of courage while dealing with pain and adversity. Specifically regarding Jon and Tyrion. And before this flames, we can simply agree to disagree on this point. :dunno:

Good point, and one I agree with. Excellent point, and also one I personally agree with. But, unfortunately, that is the rub of the internet age. Anonymity breeds cruelty because there is little consequence for the abuser, but substantial consequence for the victim. It doesn't really say much for human beings that removing one's accountability for actions and words will foster the darker impulses normally kept in check by social boundries and customs. Joseph Conrad, anyone? I feel quite fortunate that I grew up in a time pre-dating the internet, where you had to defend your opinions effectively, and learned quite quickly that temper tantrums did not an argument win, nor did your position stand up to critique. For the record: I like HBOGoT. I prefer the books, and understand why "bookwalkers" have difficulties inasmuch as I understand how and why the "unsullied" embrace every episode as it is completely new for them. If bookwalkers want to complain, it's cool, but I think condescending to them by calling them "purists" is negating the reality that for a number of them, D&D included, there would not be a show were it not for them....those devoted people who over the span of many years waited, and waited, and waited for the next book. That kind of devotion is rare, and worthy of understanding, IMO. I walked into a Barnes & Noble and bought them all in one day, read them in three weeks. So, you know, maybe the "purists" have earned the small right to voice an opinion, as unpopular as that opinion may be. That said, if one is one of those people who consider themselves a member of the "I've waited 10 years between each book" club, then you should consider yourself old enough to behave as an adult and not a child throwing a temper tantrum because it isn't satisfying on a scale of absolutism. P.S. This is not intended to flame, or otherwise insult anyone.

So because "lots of people" don't share your opinion, it reflects some inability to recognize quality writing? For some, myself included, the episode was boring, which does not reflect a lack of attention span on my part, or theirs, but the ability to determine whether I/they find something challenging and/or entertaining as they define it. That definition may differ from yours, but it makes it no less valid than yours. Overall GoT is an excellent show which from time to time suffers from budget constraints and a seriously devoted book fan base, which can be detrimental to the whole. I like the show, I watch every sunday. This past Sunday I turned it off halfway through, and went for ice cream. For this episode, IMO, ice cream was a better choice. Actually, it was frozen yogurt, with white chocolate chips, but that's another thread....

This idea confuses me, and I've seen it a couple times in various threads RE: episode 8. I don't understand using Talisa as a means to relate customs, etc. about the Free Cities when we have Dany in closer proximity, and her arc actually intersects with the Free Cities IIRC. Why wouldn't TPTB temper her "fire and blood" demands with some info exposition about the area she is currently in, and that area she is about to encounter. Objectively, I understand the choice of Talisa/exposition monkey, but I feel that there was a real opportunity to add some much needed meat to the Dany storyline, meat that is more relative to her specific arc, and I don't understand why this didn't happen. A real missed opportunity to balance Dany, and possibly make her storyline this season less demanding brat and more empowering. I could be remembering this entirely wrong, but I'm certain someone here can correct me?

5/10. I'm feeling generous, but my number kinda represents the entire season for me, not simply this particular episode. Call me a "purist," but I don't remember being terribly bored reading ACoK. As always, YMMV. And can we just start calling Robb by his rightful name...Honeybadger? Cause he just don't give a..... :dunno:

well thank the gods that someone was available to clear that up.

Translated: I watched a half an hour of it, thought it boring, turned it off, and my opinion is that it was boring and somewhat disjointed for the half an hour I did watch, which was bad. :shocked:

and yet.... There Karstark was blabbering on about what she had done when mere hours before he himself was set on beheading Jaime, which would have been less an act of treason in what way exactly?

I actually turned it off. Really quite a bad episode, this one.

THIS. When he later muses about being tired of high born ladies kicking shit buckets at him, as a reader, one begins to see that while their interactions were superficially antagonistic, Catelyn and Jaime both got under each other's skin, and for him, was a necessary part of his "redemption" arc. Of the two interactions, I prefer the Karstark/Catelyn/Jaime scene to the "vows" scene. Both actors delivered beyond expectation, and the "She Wolf without any Fish Left in Her" from him made me giggle, while the "GAG HIM" Literally had me burst out laughing. So much awesome! The follow up scene seemed rushed and rather anti-climatic by comparison, IMO. As for cutting off Jaime's hand, much as I would love for Catelyn to do it, I imagine they will stick to the vows extracted at sword point, much like the book. The betrayal that Robb encounters will obviously be Catelyn's release of Jaime, which may or may not coincide with sudden marriage. As no one knows about Bran & Rickon, perhaps Catelyn's betrayal will be the devastating event that preceedes Robb's marriage/sex conundrum, the catalyst that sets the whole series of subsequent events in motion. Not a deviation I would celebrate, but given the changes to Catelyn in both seasons, I've come to expect that she will be.....muted for HBOGoT.

Dany announcing what she and her dragons will do in every episode is becoming very much like Robb's camp announcing that he's KOTN. Really just comical to me. And are we really expected to believe that Robb would not question his mother about Renly's death, or notice the 6'3" woman she's picked up on her way back? :shocked: Really, because that just seriously pushes the envelope of credulity in my estimation. I don't care how infatuated you are with Volantine Medicine Woman, a six foot three woman wearing battle armor following your mother around would still be hard to miss. Or, perhaps I'm just preternaturally perceptive. LOL.