Heresy 7

[Eyron]

Ha ha, that has been up for debate actually...

Something about the souls of skinchangers that can't be diluted into nature like they are supposed to, or they are strong enough to resist that happening...

Say old Starks escaping their tombs mayhaps.

Old Nan says the white morning mist are spirits of the dead returning to their graves, and well, the night is the time the dead rule. Like the Night's King. He was only a man by day, but he ruled the night. Also like the wolves.

Some Starks have stronger wolfblood than others she also tells Bran, and she was concerned about that...

ETA: and thanks for pointing me to the source of milky white water, I had only seen pictures of it looking turqoise before.

[jon rr stark]

This is interesting.

What does the word 'song' imply to you? When you talk about sides, it sounds as though you are reading the word song as though it means the same as battle or conflict. I can imagine why you do this, because I think all readers do this, first time round, into that prologue, the royce boy killed by the white walker - it sets up the idea of conflict. But the title of the series is not 'the conflict between ice and fire' it is 'a song of ice and fire'.

To me that means we've got to put the conflict and the battle to one side and think about singing, at least for a little bit. No conclusions here, just some ideas.

OK characters. First off an easy one, an aria is a song (=Arya). Sansa is told by Sandor that life is not a song (OK so there's a conflict between reality=not a song and what we know as readers that the whole series is, at some level, a song).

A song can be balanced = harmonious. In a harmonious song all voices would be heard equally, there would be concord, so peace between different voices which can then sing together. Well that doesn't describe what we are seeing, instead there is discord and conflict and degeneration at every level.

I didn't mean the song to be a war or conflict, but just like a harmonious or discordant song aka the music in the simarillion in the making or Arda. Ice and are fire are elements perhaps the key elements in the song in that woven together they make the correct balance in the world. There is an elemental struggle going on behind the story. The characters are just reflections of these elements. But just like no character is just good or evil. The Trag side represent fire and the Starks ice (or winter, is there a distinction im not sure) jon having large elements of both can affect both sides and rebalance the harmonies (ice magic and fire magic)

From reading the heretic threads there is some umbridge at what is seen as an oversimplification with the ice 'white walkers' bad fire 'dany with saviour dragon' good. The song implys to me not two sides but two elements which need to be interwoven, the power of ice and fire have become seperate.

However there will be a conflict and one side will be mostly fire and the other mostly ice.

I have some sympathy for the idea that the CotF somehow were responsible for the 'others' in their war against the first men but lost control of them so had to join with first men (saving the last hero - who I bet was called Brandon) but my feeling is that 'The great other' entity or chord is reflected in them and their actual orgin is beyond the story. The CotF are older hence closer to the harmionies if you like or the song than the later men who have forgotten all of it. Again this idea is influnced by the simarillion and the high elves.

Arya as in aria is soo obvious that I'd forgotten it. Her role will therefore be very significant but still a small part of the whole song she the aria to jon's opera.

So back to oversimplification

Fire Trag's and the red lot. Ice white walkers/others. Somewhere in between Jon and the Starks (they hold the north the boundary between ice beyond the wall and fire in the Trag south) and the whole GoT's is a side show.

Bit of a ramble I know

[Lummel]

The idea that the trees must be protected at all costs makes me rethink the godswoods in all the northern castles and keeps. Was the castle built with a godswood at its heart to protect the tree? Also, in concert with Eira's idea, the Wall as a giant ice cocoon (ice armor) for important weirwoods - maybe THE weirwood, if there is such a thing - is making more sense to me. Could the Others, with their threat to break the Wall, be threatening the sanctuary of this tree (or trees)? On the other hand, Mel does seem to be more anti-ice/anti-weirwood than the Others at this point, so maybe she's the real threat?

Protecting the tree - that's a thought. It would make sense if the first men worshiped the trees for their chiefs and heres to have their homesteads and keeps nearby. I can easily imagine that you might then dig a ditch and put a paalisade round the whole lot to protect it from your enemies.

We known the weirwood door/mouth at the Nights Fort is still alive so it doesn't seem totally crazy to assume it is still linked to a root network, and from that we might assume that the weirwoods are an important part of the magical part of the wall. We know that weirwoods can be memory and vision conductors (see for example Theon weirwood bed dream or Jaime's weirwood stump dream) maybe they have further related powers too? In which case chopping down weirwoods near teh wall seems like a really bad idea.

Agree on Coldhands.

[Eyron]

We known the weirwood door/mouth at the Nights Fort is still alive so it doesn't seem totally crazy to assume it is still linked to a root network, and from that we might assume that the weirwoods are an important part of the magical part of the wall. We know that weirwoods can be memory and vision conductors (see for example Theon weirwood bed dream or Jaime's weirwood stump dream) maybe they have further related powers too? In which case chopping down weirwoods near teh wall seems like a really bad idea.

Thank you, you are so sweet! ;)

Just the average crazy... You win 5 internets for finest compliment this year :drunk:

[Lummel]

So back to oversimplification

Fire Trag's and the red lot. Ice white walkers/others. Somewhere in between Jon and the Starks (they hold the north the boundary between ice beyond the wall and fire in the Trag south) and the whole GoT's is a side show.

I suspect that the game of thrones part will also be a part of that song, not sure how though. I'm inclined to think at the moment that the resolution is going to be about the restoration of harmony in someway. Maybe a marriage (possibly a symbolic one like the sealord of Braavos), maybe a self sacrifice, maybe a new pact. I don't personally think it will be a big battle thing, partly because battles don't achieve much in westeros if you look below the surface. The young Wolf won all his battles but lost the war on his uncle's wedding day. King Bob won his crown on the battlefield but his reign turned sour in the bedroom. Was Stannis defeated on the Blackwater or at Bitterbridge when Littlefinger bought the support of the Tyrells.

The crucial things in westerosi history seem to be details of inter personal relations and then we know that GRRM wants a bittersweet ending and is aiming for the conflict of the human heart divided against itself. In which case maybe the final battle will be a showdown between bran and jon, one represents summer the other the force of winter.

[Lummel]

Just the average crazy...

average crazy is the new normal, or so they tell me. :)

[jon rr stark]

I suspect that the game of thrones part will also be a part of that song, not sure how though. I'm inclined to think at the moment that the resolution is going to be about the restoration of harmony in someway. Maybe a marriage (possibly a symbolic one like the sealord of Braavos), maybe a self sacrifice, maybe a new pact. I don't personally think it will be a big battle thing, partly because battles don't achieve much in westeros if you look below the surface. The young Wolf won all his battles but lost the war on his uncle's wedding day. King Bob won his crown on the battlefield but his reign turned sour in the bedroom. Was Stannis defeated on the Blackwater or at Bitterbridge when Littlefinger bought the support of the Tyrells.

The crucial things in westerosi history seem to be details of inter personal relations and then we know that GRRM wants a bittersweet ending and is aiming for the conflict of the human heart divided against itself. In which case maybe the final battle will be a showdown between bran and jon, one represents summer the other the force of winter.

I tend to agree the battles will set the stage for the final resolution but not be the resolution, oh and there will be battles. Can you imagine the outcry if the Freys dont get their comeuppance.

As to Stark rivalary I dont see it. I do see Jon not making the end He just wouldnt sit right on the throne, however arya would be perfect.

Who vote for Arya on the throne.

[ptyx]

Hello,

I'm new to this thread, but I have a theory that I think wouldn't fit anywhere else.

So you guys say that Jon possesses the "powers" both of ice and fire.

What do you get when you merge ice and fire?

Water. Fire melts the ice and then the water extinguishes the fire.

Now many people claim Jon will be reborn as Azor Ahai, revived by Melissandre, the proof being the smoke and salt at his death scene.

But there is also the ritual of drowning for the believers of the Drowned God:

Priest:"Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel."

Response:"What is dead may never die."

Priest:"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"

As you may have guests already, my theory is that Jon Snow will be revived (sort of at least) by the power of the Drowned God. Salt - tears, steel - daggers, stone - not sure yet, maybe he just fell on stones :) He would become a living dead, but rather Coldhands-like, not Beric-like.

Of course, a weak point is that Jon didn't actually drown, but... his fleet had actually all sunk just before it, so maybe it counts?

Who could revive him? The only candidate is Patchface. He already has some proved prophetic skills and could there any other point in keeping him in the story than to reveal his hidden magical powers? He is the only one who apparently has experienced some sort of contact with the Drowned God before (at least what we know is that he drowned, but survived)

Also, the Drowned God is the only Westeros deity so far that has not yet shown any sign of its power. I think it's high time, assuming that the great battle against the Others is drawing near...

Well, actually I made it all up, because I needed a hero for my other theory - that all religions must unite under the command of a group of heroes (I couldn't find a better name) - one for each religion - so that the men could defeat the Others. By religions, I mean: The Old Gods (Bran), The Drowned God (Jon), The Seven (unknown, Sandor maybe?) and Rhllor (unknown, I would say Jaime, but it's another story...). So, no dragons, no Dany, she wouldn't make it in time and she's actually irreligious.

OK, you may start laughing now :)

[Eyron]

...He just wouldnt sit right on the throne, however arya would be perfect.

Who vote for Arya on the throne.

If Arya would sit on the iron throne - she would never actually sit on the iron throne. I can see her running around in the court room though, but she would never fit down in Kings Landing, except if she holds court in Flee Bottom perhaps.

If she becomes ruler in the end, court would move camp to Winterfell.

It's canon... :cool4:

[Eyron]

Hello,

Hi :)

As you may have guests already, my theory is that Jon Snow will be revived (sort of at least) by the power of the Drowned God. Salt - tears, steel - daggers, stone - not sure yet, maybe he just fell on stones :) He would become a living dead, but rather Coldhands-like, not Beric-like.

Of course, a weak point is that Jon didn't actually drown, but... his fleet had actually all sunk just before it, so maybe it counts?

Also, didn't he fall down face first? :eek:

Also, the Drowned God is the only Westeros deity so far that has not yet shown any sign of its power. I think it's high time, assuming that the great battle against the Others is drawing near...

Agreed, bring out Cthulhu already.

Well, actually I made it all up, because I needed a hero for my other theory - that all religions must unite under the command of a group of heroes (I couldn't find a better name) - one for each religion - so that the men could defeat the Others. By religions, I mean: The Old Gods (Bran), The Drowned God (Jon), The Seven (unknown, Sandor maybe?) and Rhllor (unknown, I would say Jaime, but it's another story...). So, no dragons, no Dany, she wouldn't make it in time and she's actually irreligious.

OK, you may start laughing now :)

Nice heresy! The ending was nice somehow, so the good guys would be like a boyband of Westeros, someone for everyone? :D

I agree that there is something to it, I wrote at some point about the new generation in Westeros and that they may have to join forces to survive. I think there is a small hope for that, if old grudges can be set aside, at least temporarily. Asha seems willing to do that, Sansa perhaps too, Myrcella, Tommen, Arianne, Trystane, Lancel, Alys Karstark and the Mormont girls, and Bran hopefully. With some luck the new rulers of the Kingdoms will be more good-natured and willing to compromise. And of course Sam will guide them all :drunk:

[Lummel]

Nice heresy! The ending was nice somehow, so the good guys would be like a boyband of Westeros, someone for everyone? :D

So the song of fire and ice will be sung by the battle of the band winners. No doubt they will be promoted by Peter "The Colonel" Baelish. **shakes head**

[lokisnow]

Also, the Drowned God is the only Westeros deity so far that has not yet shown any sign of its power. I think it's high time, assuming that the great battle against the Others is drawing near...

Isn't it interesting how the undead are part of the religious dogma of some of the religions? The followers of the Drowned God become symbolically undead in their drowning ritual, for example. And there's indications that R'hllor's religion is led by undead priests and priestesses.

Where else do we see the undead?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I have a thought on 'The song of Ice and Fire' and conflict and duality. Us Heretics start with the assumption that the series isn't building up too Dany and Her Amazing Dragons joining forces with Team Starks Forever and defeating/destroying the Great Other. We assume that the R'hollr/Great Other duality is Red Priest Propaganda and there are more than two forces at work here.

Call me a Heretic among the Heretics, but what if the duality between Ice and Fire does exists, they are in conflict, and we've just been lied to about who the aggressor is. Ice, traditionally, is an element of stasis. Fire on the other hand, is an element of change and destruction. The Others, as far as we have seen, are only aggressors in very specifically framed context. What about the Red Priests? Well Mel brought an army to the Wall, stole the horn of winter, and is constantly seeking to raise a dragon.

We've all assumed that PTWP and AAR are part of a cycle involving another War for Dawn, but what if the Song of Ice and Fire is about returning to a previous balance instead?

[Eyron]

I have a thought on 'The song of Ice and Fire' and conflict and duality. Us Heretics start with the assumption that the series isn't building up too Dany and Her Amazing Dragons joining forces with Team Starks Forever and defeating/destroying the Great Other. We assume that the R'hollr/Great Other duality is Red Priest Propaganda and there are more than two forces at work here.

Call me a Heretic among the Heretics, but what if the duality between Ice and Fire does exists, they are in conflict, and we've just been lied to about who the aggressor is. Ice, traditionally, is an element of stasis. Fire on the other hand, is an element of change and destruction. The Others, as far as we have seen, are only aggressors in very specifically framed context. What about the Red Priests? Well Mel brought an army to the Wall, stole the horn of winter, and is constantly seeking to raise a dragon.

We've all assumed that PTWP and AAR are part of a cycle involving another War for Dawn, but what if the Song of Ice and Fire is about returning to a previous balance instead?

I can't speak for BC or the others here, but this thought is what triggered my interest in this topic, BC and myself had an exchange on precisely this in another thread. We were on the topic of the Reeds oath to Bran and the balance between the elements and got to thinking that Ice had been weakened and the balance been disturbed long ago. The Fire element on the other hand is very dominant and it's cult spreading over the world.

Since reading a lot of other ideas since I came here, I am not sure at all, but I think the balance is not going to be about defeating the Others and returning to the state Westeros were in pre-AGoT. Some things will have to change, and I'm sure I wont like all of it. The balance is going to be reached somehow, since it seems there were balance long ago, before the First Men came to Westeros... Or as long ago as before the Children came.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Boy, this thread has been moving even faster than usual, but it has been a GREAT read! Great ideas as is the norm, also very interesting from the new ones to this thread! Ok, so something stuck out to me with reading it all together and I'm not sure how much stock to put in it. I only wanted to throw it in the mix to see if part of it can go somewhere, or not. My idea is from reading all of the thoughts on the weirwoods and the Wall. I also have a question; what was the exact quote? ( Old Nan maybe) The Wall will stand as long as the Night's Watch remains true; or something similar. So going off of that...

What if part of the pact with the COTF, and part of the NW remaining true has to do with the weirwoods along the Wall? What if the weirwoods aids the magic within the Wall that in turns protects the passge of white walkers? We know the WW have been active for much longer than first perception, so could that tie in with the weirwoods along the Wall being cut down or whatever happened with them? ( we have discussed that it's strange they do not have weirwoods at the castle's along the Wall before ) We suspect that the weirwoods offer some type of protection, like when Jon and other members find wildings and a giant waiting in the weirwood grove. Could not having weirwoogs weaken the magic spells in the Wall, but maybe take a little time to happen? Could the Night's Watch being true mean being true to the Old Gods, the old way, the children and the pact? We know the First Men cut down, or burned, weirwoods before the truce where the FM even changed faith to the Old Gods, so that has to be a part of the pact, to protect the weirwoods. Maybe it was a part of the start of the NW also, and has been lost in time like other things.

This has also made me consider why it seems the WW were herding the wildings to the Wall and also why the the WW have not seemed as agressive as one might think they would be. If the magic is weakening so they maybe could pass, wouldn't it be easier to get all of the wildings south of the Wall first? Why would they turn them all into their wights and slaves, then have to try to get them all through the tunnels at the Wall, for their battle south of the Wall? It seems much easier to herd them south then when the WW are ready to move south themselves they have an army ready to be wightified to battle the seven kingdoms. This can also be considered with Dany's dream (?) about battling an ice army (?) at the Trident. All though I think her dream could be connected to Rhaegar somehow and may not mean she will actually have a battle near the Trident.

So that's my latest crazy crackpot. :) Ignore, pick apart, or use pieces as you prefer, I have not had time to really consider any of it, or time to develope it, and I'm not even sure if I subscribe to it. It is just some randon thoughts I had after reading the thread.

[hotweaselsoup]

Isn't it interesting how the undead are part of the religious dogma of some of the religions? The followers of the Drowned God become symbolically undead in their drowning ritual, for example. And there's indications that R'hllor's religion is led by undead priests and priestesses.

Where else do we see the undead?

This may be heresy, but I don't really dig Bloodraven's unnatural life hooked up to the tree - I consider him "undead", in a way. Likewise, the other hooked-up singers in the cave strike me as being outside the natural cycle of life and death. The Undying of Qarth are also parasitically linked to some sort of outside energy source (shade of the evening sap?). And of course Coldhands is your more traditional zombie, although I think he's tapped into some ice energy. All of these creatures seem to have swapped out their natural life force - blood, if you want - for an elemental substitute of some kind. They've bypassed their internal batteries and are plugged directly into the wall socket. Or something like that :drunk:

[Eyron]

Hotweaselsoup,

You may not believe me, but I agree, in part... I like Bloodraven, if nobody noticed, but I think his time is long past. I don't know if it is the norm necessarily though, to be hooked up like that until every drop of blood is extracted from your body.

By my definition of human he is bordering being non-human at this point... But he is still mortal, and he will die soon, I expect :(

I think the old singers Bran found are dead or dying too, I think by their standards they have probably lived longer just like BR, but that they are mortal.

I did get a strange feeling when reading about Bran's encounter with the singers on the weirthrones in the cave... One of them looked at him and opened his mouth, as if he was trying to speak.

I fear he was, and what he would have said was: Fly, you fools! :uhoh:

So as with everything I am not sure what to believe, hardly news to you.

[Kuragin]

On he Mel and her role thing... When you look at he evidence Mel has never acted for the greater good - or out of anything other than her self serving needs. All the good done at the wall was done by Jon, most of the tension brought by Ml and her dicsiples. Hell Mel would ot have brought Stannis to the wall if it were not for Davos. I think it is more than reasonable to assume Mel (weather it is her actual intention or no) is anything but a force for good, or even the vaguely conservative - the woman is bad news.

[yestoitall]

At last!

I've been reading this thread since finishing ADWD at the end of November, enjoying the contributions from everybody involved, hats off to the lot of you!

What started off as some scribblings on a piece of paper, probably from early in December, intended as a thought-out and hopefully coherent expression of some ideas regarding ASOIAF, has evolved into a hopelessly complicated notebook, which defies all attempts to transform it into a post, and is still in the works…

Which makes this my 1st post. Feels good.

It seems that the various significant contributors are all willing to entertain the slightly new direction the thread's taken over the last couple of pages, so now (at last!) I can dive in and get to Bloodraven.

Let's start with the Greenseers. I think everybody seems to agree that their abilities allow them to view events through the weirnet, encompassing anything that took place within the sight of one of the faces carved into a weirwood tree (and possibly other locations as well…), from present day to thousands of years ago. What I don't think has been discussed on the thread is the unique position this puts the Greenseers in.

Unlike the entire population of the planet, the Greenseers know what events really took place, and don't have their information filtered through some distorted lens with an agenda - The Citadel and the Maesters, for example, or the Faceless Men, or any major House in Westeros, or the followers of Rhillor, or any one of a number of different influential organizations (for want of a better term), that control the flow of information. This leaves them as the only people who actually know what's happened, other than the Gods, perhaps, without any loss of information due to the passing of time.

This is not to say that the influential organizations in ASOIAF necessarily know less than the Greenseers, but from what we've seen, the passing of time has presented many (if not all) of these organizations with huge problems in maintaining their original purposes. The Starks are the 'organization' we're probably most familiar with, and they are struggling more than most to understand what their true role is at the end of ADWD, but Winter is Coming, and I digress…

Some of these organizations remain a mystery, like the Faceless Men, and it is possible that they may have access to a similar source of undistorted information to the Greenseers. But if that is the case, we are unaware of it. We are also unaware of many aspects of the Greenseers, including what their goal, if they have one, might be. But we do know, through Bran's POV, something about their capabilities, and especially their ability to use the weirnet, after Bran's last POV in ADWD.

It is this ability that leads to me to believe that the Greenseers are the one group seeking to redress the imbalances in ASOIAF. Whilst it is still entirely possible that Bloodraven, and to a lesser extent Bran, have their own personal agendas, the relationship between the Greenseers and TCOF appears to be functioning to the satisfaction of the Greenseers, as represented by Bloodraven, as well as TCOF, as represented by Leaf. As such, the two groups appear to have achieved their short term objective of putting Bran in place to succeed Bloodraven. The long term objective is a little harder to decipher, but Given that Leaf has been preparing to meet Bran for a very long time, it would appear to be in hand as well.

In many ways, the Greenseers and TCOF seem to be the guardians of the world in which they live. If there are agendas attached to either them we are not privy to them. Yet their actions are just the latest in a long, and apparently uninterrupted, sequence of events in which the Greenseers seem to be the dominant force. To bring things back to their use of the weirnet, they also seem to be the only group completely in touch with the true history of the world in which they live. With Bloodraven, there is every suggestion that this has transcended his loyalties to the Targaryens (as a Targ bastard), to the Iron Throne (as a former Hand of the King and true Westerosi), to the Night's Watch (as a former Lord Commander), and several other loyalties as well.

I'm going to leave things there for now, but I just have to say I'm loving the way this thread is evolving...

[Elaena Targaryen]

@yestoitall, great first post! You have brought up some important points and I agree! I also wanted to mention that I believe that it's very possible that the greenseers can use any tree, not just weirwoods, and that tree probably dosen't even need a face. I think they use the weirwoods for starters and the faces as well for training and later they aren't needed. It has to be extremely complicated to learn how to do it and the faces help along with the weirwoods considering they are probably "magical".