Heresy 7

[Francis Buck]

I've thought about this before but never posted it since it didn't seem too substantial, but after thinking about it for awhile I think there are several important factors we can glean from considering what GRRM's original plan for the structure of the series was. As we know, it was initially planned as a trilogy: A Game of Thrones, which covered everything up to ASoS, then A Dance with Dragons, which would of course cover the whole Feast/Dance arc, and then The Winds of Winter, which would presumably have covered what will ultimately be the last two books in the series. We also know that GRRM more or less knew the broad strokes of the story before writing it. What's interesting is that, had this structure been kept, I think certain aspects of the story would be viewed differently, and some future parts (including many of the "Heresy" concepts) would be a little more obvious.

For starters, I think it's likely that in GRRM's original plan, each book in the trilogy would have had a prologue and an epilogue. My reasoning is that, so far, the only two books to have epilogues are Storm and Dance, both of which would have been the end of their respective story arcs in the trilogy. So, in the case of the "original" Game of Thrones, this would almost certainly have been the prologue we have now, introducing the Others and the Wall, and then Storm's epilogue where we see Cat has been resurrected into a rather sinister being. I think that, if all of this had been contained in one book, the idea of resurrection in general would have felt stronger, and the implications of it happening at both the beginning (with the Others) and the end (with a Stark) would have been more obvious.

Secondly, the structure of the series as a whole (and where it was heading) would have seemed more obvious if it was a trilogy. The first book would have basically covered the downfall of the Starks, and the rise of Dany and Jon. The second book, I think, was basically meant to be the "training period" for the young Stark children, as well as Dany and Jon's first attempt (and failure) at being rulers. In fact, I think the entire point of the five-year gap was to allow a reasonable amount of time for the Stark children and Jon and Dany to "learn their skills". Arya's becoming an assassin, Sansa a politician, Bran a super-warg, while Rickon I Imagine would have originally come back as a warrior of some sort (he would have been a teenager or, at the youngest, a pre-teen if the gap had been kept). And, like I said, Jon and Dany would have had five years for their first experience as rulers (it also would have given a more reasonable amount of time for the dragons to grow). GRRM has even said that the five-year gap didn't work because "the adults had nothing to do", which implies that it was largely intended for the younger characters in the first place.

In addition, we also know that GRRM's original plan was to have the POVs only from the first book (aside from Ned obviously) be the ones for the entire series. This also makes sense if we assume that Dany's going to eventually fill the role of the saga's "psuedo-antagonist", especially if we stick Tyrion in there as well (come on, it's pretty obvious he's going to be her Queen's Hand...at least I think so), since they're the only non-Stark characters that would have originally gotten POVs.

I know had more, but I'll have to think about it and post some later.

[LittleDragon]

Fantastic topic, great ideas! I have just finished reading it through. The idea that GRRM had no dragons in his mind originally had caught me. If we look back to AGOT, there was no magic, only complots and intiques among noble houses for the throne. I think the incorporation real dragons into the story increased the importance of magic and overnatural event, and GRRM had recognized the possibilities hidden in this tool. Most certainly he had a strong original plot idea but the appearance of the magical element widened the possibilities. Maybe this is why the overall atory increased from three books to seven!

I like the idea of the trulyness of the NW. And I agree, it means to make the vow befor weirwoods. The greensears could see their faces through the tree faces and remember them, and protect them. Maybe those members of the watch who make their vows in the sept loose this protection. Maybe this is why so many of them died during ranging, the greensears could not identify them. Maybe Benjen is still alive, because according to LC Mormont he has made his vows before a weirwood, so he might have had a better protection than his compagnions.

[Uncat]

Finaly I found myself a little time to post. The thread is still racing... First some thoughts

In short the threat from the Others has so far proved illusory. Whether it will manifest itself after all as winter comes remains to be seen but there’s absolutely no doubt that the threat from Dany and the Red Lot is all too real, which is why in the end Westeros will be saved by Jon the Ice Dragon.

This is, what I had in mind, when talking about the game of thrones being pivotal and not some sideshow. And when you add, what Francis Buck says about what he assumes to be the original structure of the books, it makes perfect sense.

For starters, I think it's likely that in GRRM's original plan, each book in the trilogy would have had a prologue and an epilogue. My reasoning is that, so far, the only two books to have epilogues are Storm and Dance, both of which would have been the end of their respective story arcs in the trilogy. So, in the case of the "original" Game of Thrones, this would almost certainly have been the prologue we have now, introducing the Others and the Wall, and then Storm's epilogue where we see Cat has been resurrected into a rather sinister being. I think that, if all of this had been contained in one book, the idea of resurrection in general would have felt stronger, and the implications of it happening at both the beginning (with the Others) and the end (with a Stark) would have been more obvious.

You get a great song about the downfall of house Stark, on how the surviving mebers reconnect to the roots of their house and finally rise again as the kings of Winter. They have to prevail in the civil wars of Westeros in order to fullfil the role, they once had. And a hugh part of this will be fighting back the red lot (and now that they are in the story, the dragons of course).

And looking at this this way, the "thanks for the dragons" quote makes sense, too :)). If you subtract the dragons - but not the magic, the magic is crucial - from Francis Bucks assumed original structur, the conflict becomes clearer. westeros is cought between ice - the WW and the cold dead wights - and fire, which would be r'hollor and his own bunch of undead fighters sustainend by their inner fires (Uncats burning desire for revenge as much as Mel burning desire to fight the ice). It would have worked quite nicely (though the dragons are what turns it really epic).

[jon rr stark]

Eira, thank your thoughts, and again for the warm welcome. I love the athmosphere you guys created in ths threats. I really got to reread those chapters (and find them first ;)). Looks like my memory of the events is not very accurate. Darn weekend. No kindergarden, everybody home, no time to read and discuss creazy ideas on creazy forums. :0)

But last night while while rereading ASOS pt 1 with the whole BR debate in mind I noticed something in Jon II where he meets Mance on the fist between the ruins of the camp. There are a lot of ravens mentioned. When the approach the fist, there is one raven who could even be taken for a lookout. We are slipped an explanation (those ravens might be the ones, Sam brought along) but the way it it slipped to the reader and what I know now about BR (thanks to you guys!) made think

Was BR even involved in the attact? If the whatch isn't thru any more, does this mean, that BC can be loyal to the watch but consider the current brothers to be oathbreakers like those Coldhands killed ealier. I suppose they were part of the gang which rebelled against Mormont and killed him. But maybe there is a deeper meaning to this?

Just rambling. Sorry but those bits about the ravens in that Jon chapter connected so nicely with the ideas about the whole watch not being thru anymore. Just had to put it down.

When I read this the first time I was sure one of the ravens was a lookout. I think it is obvious that its is one of the thousand eyes of BR remembering his background and family links to ravens in that weirwoog tree where he was brought up.

From what this raven saw BR had enough info to send Coldhands to find Sam who was the only one available to get Bran beyond the wall, what with Jon off on his mission.

Finaly I found myself a little time to post. The thread is still racing... First some thoughts

This is, what I had in mind, when talking about the game of thrones being pivotal and not some sideshow. And when you add, what Francis Buck says about what he assumes to be the original structure of the books, it makes perfect sense.

You get a great song about the downfall of house Stark, on how the surviving mebers reconnect to the roots of their house and finally rise again as the kings of Winter. They have to prevail in the civil wars of Westeros in order to fullfil the role, they once had. And a hugh part of this will be fighting back the red lot (and now that they are in the story, the dragons of course).

And looking at this this way, the "thanks for the dragons" quote makes sense, too :)). If you subtract the dragons - but not the magic, the magic is crucial - from Francis Bucks assumed original structur, the conflict becomes clearer. westeros is cought between ice - the WW and the cold dead wights - and fire, which would be r'hollor and his own bunch of undead fighters sustainend by their inner fires (Uncats burning desire for revenge as much as Mel burning desire to fight the ice). It would have worked quite nicely (though the dragons are what turns it really epic).

I agree the Starks finding their roots is important. I think Both Jon and Bran have dreams which never quite finish because something deep or dark is just there out of reach. Also the feeling that there is something in the winterfell crypts the constant reference to the Stark past when they were kings. Also There are hints that there is something sinister beneath or in the Wall and there must be a link between Bran the builder and the Starks. Possibly he was the first Stark? But he built winterfell and most generations of Starks have a Brandon including I think the Nights King.

As to dragons they are not essential to the story but were put in after. In the end they are only a weapon (even if they are the nuclear option). And for reasons of balance if there is to be fire dragons there should be an ice dragon

[Black Crow]

When I read this the first time I was sure one of the ravens was a lookout. I think it is obvious that its is one of the thousand eyes of BR remembering his background and family links to ravens in that weirwoog tree where he was brought up.

From what this raven saw BR had enough info to send Coldhands to find Sam who was the only one available to get Bran beyond the wall, what with Jon off on his mission.

Or, perhaps more likely he was overseeing the attack to to ensure that Mance's trek would get through and that ultimately the Wildlings would start opening more eyes south of the Wall.

[Lummel]

The problem (well not really a problem but a complicating factor) in a rise, fall and rise of the Starks or a Starks find their roots story is that those roots are not all sweetness and light and all things nice. It's increasingly clear that there is also something sinister at the heart of Starkness. However things develop it is not going to be good guys versus bad guys (I think this is a safe bet!).

Ice and Fire are dualities, opposing forces. But human life is impossible in either, we need a balance between the cold and the heat. Leaping back to the oath that the Reeds swear these are powerful things that have to be negoatiated and dealt with to be able to survive.

[Black Crow]

The problem (well not really a problem but a complicating factor) in a rise, fall and rise of the Starks or a Starks find their roots story is that those roots are not all sweetness and light and all things nice. It's increasingly clear that there is also something sinister at the heart of Starkness. However things develop it is not going to be good guys versus bad guys (I think this is a safe bet!).

It's interesting to see that all of a sudden this thread and these views are starting to become "respectable" if not universally acknowledged

[Lummel]

I think we are making slow progress out of the ghetto!

Partly that's because we have this thread and we are bring to it one off ideas that we are finding elsewhere and nurturing them (as well as growing our own), partly because the sinister side isn't just hinted at in ADWD, it's more of a slap in the face.

Also of course by keeping this thread going and discussing these possibilities seriously and in a friendly manner we are giving these ideas breathing space. A certain amount of repetition and building up the same thoughts repeatedly counts for a lot on the internet.

[Uncat]

I think we are making slow progress out of the ghetto!

Partly that's because we have this thread and we are bring to it one off ideas that we are finding elsewhere and nurturing them (as well as growing our own), partly because the sinister side isn't just hinted at in ADWD, it's more of a slap in the face.

Also of course by keeping this thread going and discussing these possibilities seriously and in a friendly manner we are giving these ideas breathing space. A certain amount of repetition and building up the same thoughts repeatedly counts for a lot on the internet.

And as a newbe on this threat I would mention a another quality: What I really apreciated from the start is this way of sticking to the text and proofs instead of going "Yes, he is", "no, he isn't", "ohh but yes he is", "no he isn't" forth and back for forty or so posts.

Black Crow: When you say, the ravens oversaw the attac you mean, that BR was collecting intel for who ever was coordinating it? It reed the chapter last night and it really is a fullgrown operation. This would put BR firmly in the wights camp. Not nescessarily in that of the WW, too. Though when reading the chapter, the impression prevails, that the WW really are closly conected to whatever force raises and commands the wights. Plott thickens for Bran.

[Lummel]

we know that Bloodraven collects intelligence. It's a fair assumption that he does this to further his own ends or in pursuit of his own ends. We can imagine that he needs to know what happens on the fist of the men but is he the guiding intelligence of the white walkers :dunno: .

I think he would help them if it helped him achieve his aims, but since we can only feel the edges of what his aims are (it's got to be big, it's got to be bigger than loyalty to his mother's family, the targaryens, the watch and the realm) it is still a stretch to say that he controls or gives information to the white walkers, on the other hand we can't say definitely so far that he isn't doing this.

Uncat said

And as a newbe on this threat I would mention a another quality: What I really apreciated from the start is this way of sticking to the text and proofs instead of going "Yes, he is", "no, he isn't", "ohh but yes he is", "no he isn't" forth and back for forty or so posts.

meh, that would be boring. Plus we're heretics, so we try harder!

[Black Crow]

And as a newbe on this threat I would mention a another quality: What I really apreciated from the start is this way of sticking to the text and proofs instead of going "Yes, he is", "no, he isn't", "ohh but yes he is", "no he isn't" forth and back for forty or so posts.

Black Crow: When you say, the ravens oversaw the attac you mean, that BR was collecting intel for who ever was coordinating it? It reed the chapter last night and it really is a fullgrown operation. This would put BR firmly in the wights camp. Not nescessarily in that of the WW, too. Though when reading the chapter, the impression prevails, that the WW really are closly conected to whatever force raises and commands the wights. Plott thickens for Bran.

Well we do try to interpret the story as written and reconcile some real puzzles and contradictions rather than skating through at a superficial level. As Lummel says that's why we take pride in being heretics, because you can't preach heresy without knowing scripture.

As to Bloodraven. We're obviously going to have to wait and see. It has been suggested before that the Children are the Others - and that the Others are not just the White Walkers/Rangers but all of the Old Races, which obviously involves Bloodraven. In the past however that's tended to draw outraged objection that the Children are lovely tree-hugging bunnies and that Bloodraven is first and foremost a Targaryen, just as the Starks are the good guys who are going to get all sorts of useful info from the Children to help them defeat the Others. Now given the evidence we've been uncovering of a darker side to the Starks, that Bloodraven is also a Blackwood, that he and the Children dwell in the darkness, that Bran and the others may have been hustled into the caves, there's nothing inherently unlikely about Bloodraven manipulating that attack on the Fist to clear the way for the Trek - somebody was running that show and given the presence of the ravens he has to be the prime suspect.

edited for spelling

[Eyron]

This thread, it's a bit like a small greenhouse for ideas that don't make it out in the cold of the rest of the forums ;)

Having said that, we know BR has his ravens (and probably had them before he went north of the Wall too) and it is safe to assume they are his eyes in the world, besides seeing through the trees. I'm not so sure he must be sending information to someone else, or using them to command the wights, there is nothing that points to this specifically, no more than that the birds are communicating with anyone else. His birds should be everywhere important either way, since he wants to know what's going on.

It's very possible he was orchestrating the attack of the fist, but the wights would have found them anyway, thanks to the fires that could be seen through out a big part of the north. The wights follow the fires to find humans, that may be true or not since it came from Coldhands but that is at least stated in the text and seems to work since Bran and co never lit fires on their journey north, and they were not attacked until they came to the cave, where the Children had fires lit inside.

[Uncat]

That was my first herethic thought, when I first read the series. The children can't be that good. After all they gave the first man a really hard time or else there wouldn't have been a pact. Sounds like firce fighters to me. No, wait, actually it was my second. The first was "if those Starks don't get some shade of gray soon, I will start to hate them ;0)

[Eyron]

Don't worry then, one of those things WILL happen :) (It's canon!)

[Stark@heart]

I had the feeling the the Wrights that attack Bran and Co. at the entrance to the cave have been there a long time. I don't see them as under the control of BR or the COTF, they seem to me to be there to keep anyone from entering or leaving the cave. Coldhands is the one following BR/COTF/Old Gods commands by bring Bran safely from the Wall to the Cave, just as Jorjen and Meera brought Bran safely from Winterfell to the Wall at the direction of the 3EC. Yes, things are taking a darker turn and the whole cave thing is creepy enough without worrying what's really in the weirpaste. Definately seeds and sap but maybe something more?

Things have gotten darker through out the Seven Kingdoms and across the Narrow Sea as well. Dany and her dragons have fermented a slave revolt that is being encouraged by the Red Priests in the Free Cities that will take place without her and her dragons. Most of the known world is bleeding or will be. Winter will have taken hold of the Westeros by the time Dany makes it to Kings Landing and things in the North and at the Wall will be dire.

I agree that the Others are not "the great evil". They are intelligent beings (ghosts?) with motives of their own. I don't think the Old Gods/COTF are all sunshine and light either. It is known that blood sacrifices take place in front of Weirtrees but we don't know if it was required. It could be a human invention. But anyway. I think that the Old Gods and their associates as well as the Others are only another side in the power struggles that are sweeping across the lands.

GRRM likes history and is giving us a front row seat to the plotting and schemeing that goes on behind the scenes. How it's the small things that can cause a chain of events that leads to an all out war or maybe not so small in the case of Cersei and her three treasons.

The people are more important to the story that the magic. In the end, it will come down to some hard choices. Some will choose wisely and others,( I mean Mel, Ha ^_^ ) may not.

The magic and the dragons will cancel each other out and it will be the will of the individuals that matters most.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don’t want to start off a big argument over Dany and her motives, which can be played out on other threads. She’s coming to Westeros with the very best of intentions, but she’s also bringing death and destruction on an unimaginable scale.

In short the threat from the Others has so far proved illusory. Whether it will manifest itself after all as winter comes remains to be seen but there’s absolutely no doubt that the threat from Dany and the Red Lot is all too real, which is why in the end Westeros will be saved by Jon the Ice Dragon.

Thank you for the inspiration, BC. Now I can see how Jon might indeed become king of Westeros. The dragons and other players in the games of thrones will have Westeros in flames, literally and figuratively, and then Jon and his ice army will sweep down from the north, engage in another battle of the Trident, with dragons, in which, if we're lucky, the Freys get toasted in their towers. After winning a stunning victory, Jon continues to move south and retakes the entire continent for the First Men and the Old Gods. If he doesn't die first. I can't shake the feeling that he's doomed, even though he's one of my favorite characters.

Damn, I so have to reread Jon's POVs.

I always thought that the faces carved into trees south of the Wall was a political statement by the Wildings that said, not too subtly, "screw the king, his god and his priestess." And good for them. But I like the idea that the faces could be an extension of the powers of the far north as well as a political statement -- in fact, moving the Wilding's south makes the north more northern, as it were.

[jon rr stark]

Or, perhaps more likely he was overseeing the attack to to ensure that Mance's trek would get through and that ultimately the Wildlings would start opening more eyes south of the Wall.

Is that because the wildlings would break through the wall thus allowing the WW to follow. Or are you saying the wildings can open the weirwood eyes?

[Lummel]

I had the feeling the the Wrights that attack Bran and Co. at the entrance to the cave have been there a long time. I don't see them as under the control of BR or the COTF, they seem to me to be there to keep anyone from entering or leaving the cave.

OK. So lets imagine how long have they been there? Do Wights decompose or once they become wights are they preserved insome kind of magical stasis (in which case the wights could have been there as a minefield (nod to Blackcrow) for a long time. The lets ask ourselves who buried the wights there? You can't bury yourself in the ground so who did it? Actually if the wights are able to find a location and dig holes for themselves to lie in wait that would be a new height (or better said a depth) of achievement for them. So far they have seemed to be rather simple creatures.

Do we imagine this was done to trap the children in their cave or was it done by the children to protect themselves from intruders?

[jon rr stark]

Bloodraven fits in with the song of ice and fire in that he has family roots to the first men and the old gods through the blackwoods. Loosely I take ice to be the old ways first men and hence the Stark camp. Also he has the insights of fire from the targaryan side. He would know the old ways and all about the chrildren etc but also what the targs reason for believing they are destined to produce AA in their bloodline. He was a powerful sorcerer with a badass rep. But in the Dunk and Egg stories he comes across as quite amiable and has the ability to glamour. So I think he has know for a long time where things were heading. He was a such a strong targ loylist because he knew AA has to come from the Targ line but he also knows he has to look to the Starks to find a greenseerer. He watched Ned before Bran. My take on BR he is moving the pieces to prepare for the final conflict.

[Eyron]

OK. So lets imagine how long have they been there? Do Wights decompose or once they become wights are they preserved insome kind of magical stasis (in which case the wights could have been there as a minefield (nod to Blackcrow) for a long time. The lets ask ourselves who buried the wights there? You can't bury yourself in the ground so who did it? Actually if the wights are able to find a location and dig holes for themselves to lie in wait that would be a new height (or better said a depth) of achievement for them. So far they have seemed to be rather simple creatures.

Do we imagine this was done to trap the children in their cave or was it done by the children to protect themselves from intruders?

I don't remember them buried in the ground, as far as I know they were hiding in the deep snow...

I assumed it was the fires in the cave that drew them there, or the smell of life but I think the fires are the thing that attracts them. And I figured that since they can't get in they just stayed there, snow falling and burying them where they stood or fell. Or that they were sent there by white walkers or whatever controls them, to keep the children from coming out.