Heresy 7

[Black Crow]

I like the Trail of Tears analogy and think it very apt.

As to the why now? presumably its something triggered by the comet, signalling the beginning of the final conflict between Ice and Fire; which is why Mel is up on the Wall proclaiming Stannis as Azor Ahai reborn and the red priests are proclaiming a crusade headed by Dany's Amazing Dragons, while north of the Wall the sleepers are wakening and the white rangers are preparing the way.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Referring to the presence of ravens at the Fist of the First Men: people have speculated that the ravens were sent there by Bloodraven to observe the action, or perhaps part of a larger plan by the WW or others (not Others) to keep the NW from preventing the movement of the Wildings toward the wall. I have a simpler explanation.

Ravens eat carrion. They gather at battlefields, and are said to follow armies (it's known that turkey vultures followed troops during the Civil War). If a lot of undead are gathering in a certain place, so will ravens. A gathering of ravens should be a sign to the NW that wights are near, rather than the opposite.

Bloodraven already has Lord Mormont's raven keeping an eye on the NW's progress, and the information he gathers through LM's raven makes the presence of the cloak-wrapped obsidian weapons no surpise. One of my theories is that BR had Coldhands plant the weapons cache there for Jon. My other theory is that Benjen left the cloak and weapons there, to be retrieved on his way back to the wall, and Ghost was able to find the cache because of Benjen's scent. And yet a third possibility is that Coldhands used the dead Benjen's cloak when planting the weapons, once again so that Ghost could find it by scent.

FWIW I have a thing for trying to find a natural or quasi-scientific answer to puzzles, which may have absolutely no relevance in a fantasy story.

I agree that the NW represents fire and light, but I still think that Northern experience came first, and that R'hllorism or whatever it's called is a corruption of that.

[Bran Vras]

To return to the R'hllor/Night's Watch connection. I am not sure what to think. I approve so much of Jojen's suggestion on Mance and the Red Silk that I started a thread on exactly this topic a couple of days ago. It's waiting for moderator approval.

I posted something about Qhorin in a thread that was moved to the General forum by a moderator and subsequently forgotten. The main point of interest is that Qhorin got an inspiration by looking at the flames, and there is the foreshadowing of Melisandre with the ruby. Here is the post.

I noticed four instances of foreshadowing in Jon's last chapter in ACoK. I list them here for the record. Two of them seem related to the Children of the Forest and the two others seem related to Melisandre. I wonder whether there is more to it, but there might not be any conspiracy theory here. Here is how the chapter begins.

When Qhorin Halfhand told him to find some brush for a fire, Jon knew their end was near.

It's better to reread the chapter than to read my hastily written summary: Jon and Qhorin sit by the fire as their attempt to escape the wildlings seems doomed. Jon has recollections of the past few days. Qhorin asks Jon to swore again his vows and prepares him to fake a betrayal of the Watch. He orders then to make the fire hotter and brighter (which might make them more detectable by they pursuers). Suddenly, while watching the flames. Qhorin decides to go backwards to find a hidden cave. Jon and Qhorin spend the night in the cave. The next morning they cross the mountain via a passage underground, only to find the wildlings waiting for them on the other side. Jon pretends to betray Qhorin in front of the Wildlings and kills him.

Let's go over the little details that I find interesting.

The weirwood paste

Jon recalls over the fire that a few days before, a garron died accidentally and

Ghost ate well that day, and Qhorin insisted that the rangers mix some of the garron’s blood with their oats, to give them strength. The taste of that foul porridge almost choked Jon, but he forced it down.

Doesn't it seem like the weirwood paste that Bran was fed in the cave?

The Trinity of flames

Half the chapter is spent around the fire. After the fire had burnt for some time, here is the decisive moment,

Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange.

“Enough,” Qhorin said abruptly. “Now we ride.”

I believe that the occurence of all three colours (yellow, orange, and red) is significant in the books, it's mostly related to the Red God. We see those flames mainly in relation to Melisandre's magic.

The cave

It's hidden in a narrow valley, behind a waterfall. Qhorin says:

“When I was no older than you, I heard a brother tell how he followed a shadowcat through these falls.”

The cave reminds me of the lair of Bloodraven and the brother reminds me of Coldhands. After a night in the cave, Jon and Qhorin cross the mountain underground. Qhorin decides to make his last stand at the exit of the passage.

The ruby

Qhorin and Jon fight:

The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon’s slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.

Rubies appear several times in the book: Melisandre's ruby is important for her magic and seems linked to her glamour. I suspect other rubies to be magical.

Are these allusions more than they seem?

The garron paste: I have wondered if Qhorin didn't put human blood or weirwood sap in place of garron's blood? I see no indication of it.

The Trinity of flames: the way the chapter is organized is curious. Jon is surprised that Qhorin asks to make a fire. Qhorin wants the fire to be very hot. When the flames are red, orange and yellow, Qhorin abruptly decides to go back to find the cave. Qhorin certainly had a sudden inspiration while looking at the fire. Did he have a vision? We'll never know. (Note: I can imagine a way for Qhorin to have learnt something about reading in the fire. It's probable that Qhorin knew the woodswitch that sewed Mance's cloak. See a concurrent thread for the notion that this witch might know some sorcery from Asshai.)

The cave: the night in the cave plays no role in the story. Qhorin and Jon don't even talk there. So why this final twist? I could find no hint that children of the forest are present in the cave. But Qhorin might have done something in the cave while Jon was asleep, and there are hints that he did as he took the first watch. While Jon is about to fall asleep he hears:

Over the rush of falling waters, Jon heard a soft sound of steel on leather that could only mean that the Halfhand had drawn his sword.

Why did he draw his sword? Given the interest that Qhorin had manifested just before, has he drawn Jon's sword?

The ruby: no, I don't think there is any glamour when Qhorin dies. His body is subsequently incinerated. But there is the curious notion that Jon's blade has barely touched Qhorin.

Two more things I can't make sense of:

1) Qhorin insists that Jon repeats his vows before the fire. We know from Sam's passage in the Nightfort that the vows have magical properties.

2) Qhorin asks whether Jon's sword is sharp, twice. Jon replies it's Valyrian steel. (I suspect Valyrian steel is linked to blood magic.) When Qhorin finally dies the sword has barely touched him. Why? Jon insists that Qhorin is taciturn and there is no idle talk here.

[Iceborn]

sorry if this ends up a double post but I have server issues.

1 what are white rangers, I missed that one

2 what connection does the red religion have with the old gods? as explained by the post above the fire seems powerful, and the old gods passive however if we listen to Aemon (I think) "fire only consumes" this would indicate that the old gods are the better option, the other part of this quote is "ice preserves" possibly a Jon survival hint with the black ice armor?

[Black Crow]

sorry if this ends up a double post but I have server issues.

1 what are white rangers, I missed that one

2 what connection does the red religion have with the old gods? as explained by the post above the fire seems powerful, and the old gods passive however if we listen to Aemon (I think) "fire only consumes" this would indicate that the old gods are the better option, the other part of this quote is "ice preserves" possibly a Jon survival hint with the black ice armor?

The White Walkers (or at least those we've seen so far) are rangers.

The Red lot are the embodiment of Fire and their only "connection" with the Old Gods is their enmity. Yes it was Maester Aemon who observed that Fire consumes but Ice preserves. I think we may already be seeing this with the undead; Beric Dondarrion, Catelyn - and whatzisface's arm were revived by fire but are being consumed by it. Dondarrion was burned out, Catelyn is mad and murderous and the Viking whose name I forget is watching his arm turn into roast pork and crackling. Coldhands on the other hand, having been preserved by Ice rather than being consumed from within is dead but human and behaving more or less normally.

Jon may be headed the same way, but I suspect that as the Ice Dragon he's going to be powerful

[Cheese Pudding]

I have not read all the thread so I will say what might have been already said

It was said at the books that the Children gave to the Watch Obsidian blades (and different stuff) for some time. And we know that dragonglass is super effective (pokémon like) against The Others. It was said that the Others are tall, the Children are small. The Children are black, the Others are White. I can't see why they would be the same because they are totally the opposite.

Ok, we don't know what The Others really want, but I don't believe in anything nice (like just live their lives).

[Lykos]

Welcome Cheese Pudding,

I think the connection of the Children to the Others (White Walkers, WW, White Rangers) is most recently discussed in the heresy 6 thread. Search function is turned off right now, so it´s a bit hard to find stuff quickly.

And the dragonglass is interesting. Why would the Children give the NW gifts of obsidian, when it´s specifically used to kill WW?

[hotweaselsoup]

Welcome Cheese Pudding,

I think the connection of the Children to the Others (White Walkers, WW, White Rangers) is most recently discussed in the heresy 6 thread. Search function is turned off right now, so it´s a bit hard to find stuff quickly.

And the dragonglass is interesting. Why would the Children give the NW gifts of obsidian, when it´s specifically used to kill WW?

Just speculation of course, but the CotF were said to give the Watch 100 dragonglass daggers every year, and there were also said to be 100 separate First Men kingdoms in the time of the Pact. I've been seeing the daggers as a symbolic gift, maybe as a reminder of some promise that was made? Or, the daggers were given in exchange for a hostage from each FM kingdom. Jon ends up with 100 wildling hostage children, coincidentally.

The earlier quote upthread about the ghost grass "glowing with the spirits of the damned" made me think of the glowing weirwood gate in the Nightfort. More and more - and partly because of the tear it sheds as Bran & Co. pass through - I think the presence in the weirwood has been trapped in there, like a damned soul. Something about the 79 sentinels story also made me think of eternal damnation: Bran recollects that because the oathbreakers had deserted their posts in life, they were then to stand watch eternally in death (to paraphrase). Coldhands seems damned, as well, which is why I'm wondering if he was a deserter in life.

[Lykos]

This pact, I think is really important, but I have to read more, to make up my mind what was agreed to.

I just got the D & E stories in english, so far I only read the Hedge Knight in german, so I´ll spend a lot of time reading the next 2 or 3 days.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Good day all... I've been reading threads here for quite some time, but never got around to making an actual account, until I had a thought a few moments ago whilst reading early Samwell chapters again in Storm of Swords & Feast For Crows...

The Others arrive in snow storms, melt away when skies clear; it is very cold when they arrive, or they arrive when it is very cold. When Sam stabbed the Other with the obsidian dagger, it melted away to nothing in short order.

That said, what if the Others are 'Winter Personified', if you will.... they're as much a part of a particularly harsh winter as heavy blizzards, an embodiment of the elements.

((Though, if so, it is curious that Brandon the Builder (or someone) chose to prevent their advance with a wall of ice. ))

[Black Crow]

Welcome Sword. Its massive contradictions like these which have given rise to the Heresy thread, shortly to go into chapter 8 - since the beginning of November.

[Bran Vras]

One more thing about the presence of the Red God beyond the Wall. There is a wildling leader call The Weeper, because his eyes are always red and irritated. He seems to be a smart fellow, since he stayed away from the battle at the Wall. There is an explanation for his affliction in the Melisandre chapter.

After gazing into the flames so long, it took her a few moments to adjust to the dimness. Her eyes were dry and tired, but if she rubbed them, it would only make them worse.

[Black Crow]

Given that Mel already knows of the Wall as a "hinge" in the world, between two realms, I suppose the most straightforward explanation is that the wrecked ship wasn't a trader but was carrying agents from the Red Temple. Presumably there were some survivors and they or their descendents are still out there but I really don't see them playing an active role unless Mance is playing a double game.

[Uncat]

Building the Wall from ice is simply impractical. In the first place sufficient ice needs to be located. It then needs to be quarried, whether from the sea or a lake or wherever, then transported to the building site and after the first few courses raised up to what eventually become incredible heights and fixed into position. All using a material which is cold enough to burn exposed flesh, and which will slip, slide and splinter at the slightest excuse. In engineering terms its an impossibility and there's no good saying, ah but perhaps they...

Yet the Wall - 700 feet high - exists. Men may have tinkered with it; laid down gravel to prevent themselves sliding off the top; erected parapets to protect themselves from the wind; build their castles next to it and tunnelled gates through it; but the Wall can only have been created by powerful natural magic, not by men or even giants.

Yepp, I was just reading the Jon where he crosses the Wall with the raiders. GRRM realy takes his time to detail the climb and how the Wall seems to shake them off. Ygritte even feels this way. No way in hell this was done and by human builders. And though Jon talks about the huge blocks he belieces to discerne in the Wall, this can't be true. Which ever way it was build, after thousends of years even a Wall of block would have fused together into one single mass of ice

Had some thoughts while reading those chapters. Hope to be able to write a coherent post later today

[Uncat]

Given that Mel already knows of the Wall as a "hinge" in the world, between two realms, I suppose the most straightforward explanation is that the wrecked ship wasn't a trader but was carrying agents from the Red Temple. Presumably there were some survivors and they or their descendents are still out there but I really don't see them playing an active role unless Mance is playing a double game.

Think so, too. Also noticed, that Mels gowns are not just described as red but as scarlett just as the silk in Mances cloack. This meaning, that mances silk is of the exact color the red/scarlett preasts use to wear

[Stark@heart]

Think so, too. Also noticed, that Mels gowns are not just described as red but as scarlett just as the silk in Mances cloack. This meaning, that mances silk is of the exact color the red/scarlett preasts use to wear

When I read about the red/scarlet being sewn into his cloak, it made me think he could be a Targ. Red & Black being the colors of House Targaren. Maybe the wood's witch sensed something in him that even he is not aware of but after donning the cloak it became very important for him to keep it. So much so that he abandoned the Watch and therefore forfeited his life if ever caught.

Way Crackpot but could he be the son/bastard of BR?

[Black Crow]

Not necessarily crackpot at all. As I observed above the fact that the non-family friendly Watch brought him up rather than cutting his throat suggests there was something significant about him. He may not be Bloodraven's son but he's not an ordinary wildling.

[unBloodraven]

I glanced back through the older iterations of this thread to see if this had already come up (I don't think it has) but if it has sorry for repetition.

The Others and whomever they serve seem to be locked in an unending war with R'hllor and the Red Priests, each side wanting control of the world not just Westeros. It seems like there needs to be a balance between the two though, the Lands of Always Winter in the North contrasted with the Deserts (Dothraki Sea, Old Valaryia) and Westeros seems to be the buffer. The narrow sea blocks R'hllor's expansion and the Wall blocks the Others. With either controling all (winning the war) the world it would seem would either become a land of Volcanos, Fire and Desert (R'hllor winning) or Pertepual Tundra expanding (Others Winning).

There must be a balance and occasionally one side or the other tries to expand, but the shattering of the world stopped R'hllor if it's to be believed that the Children shattered the Arm of Dorne, and the Children again tried to keep the balance by helping men in the war against the others and building the Wall. (Gives me a LOTR feeling)

This time it seems that both sides are moving to strike but if either side wins the world will either be preserved in ice or consumed in fire (As Maester Aemon said to Sam on the journey to Braavos, "Fire Consumes, but Ice Preserves")

[Black Crow]

Both are certainly on the move, but if the Azor Ahai legend and the Watch's victory over the Night's King in the Night that Ended battle are anything to go by, the forces of Light and Fire won last time. Now they're readying themselves to finish off the Ice and Darkness, which is why they must in turn be defeated in order to restore the balance.

[Bran Vras]

Interesting unBloodraven. It seems to me that the Red Religion is a rather disorganized cult. There is a "First servant of R'hllor" in Volantis, but it's unclear what authority he has. For instance, it's curious that Melisandre never sought help for Stannis from the Red Temples in the Free Cities. The Narrow Sea is not certainly not an impassable barrier: there are red priests in Dorne, for instance.

Concerning Mance Rayder, I expect to see you in the thread that will appear soon (several things said above duplicate parts of the OP).