The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[bradd]

JezDynamite - That's what I was originally working with (the names need to be sung not spoken) but I couldn't get it to fit. The bit that doesn't work is the Mauthen masacre - Kvothe specifically asks Denna which songs she sang at the wedding and they're all common songs. Why would the Chandrian kill everyone at the farm and not Denna if it was her singing that they didn't like? The exact quote is

As we walked, I tried to think of what reason the Chandrian could have had for killing these people. Was there any similarity between this wedding party and my troupe?

Someone's parents have been singing entirely the wrong sort of songs...

"What did you sing last night?" I asked. "For the wedding."

"The usual," Denna said, kicking through a pile of leaves. "Bright stuff. 'Pennywhistle', 'Come Wash in the River', 'Copper Bottom Pot'." She chuckled. "'Aunt Emme's Tub'..."

If there's a link there to the Chandrian, then I can't see it - best I can think of is 'copper' but that's pretty weak? By the same token, if it was something Denna sang, why would they send her there in the first place?

jumbles - I interpreted it that the Maer was collecting tax money for the King. The way I imagined it, the local lord of each area (like the Maer or the Lacklesses) would collect a certain amount of tax from their area. A percentage of this would be theirs, but some part of it would also go to the King. So the Maers tax collectors could take the money from the Lackless tax collectors and pass it down the line. From the text

"Do you know how much it costs to replace a dozen guardsmen? Armour, weapons, horses?" He sighed. "On top of it all, only part of the stolen taxes are mine, the rest belong to the king."

sciborg - Completely agree that it's an almost impossible task. I think that's why it has taken them several millennia and they're still not there. Thanks another reason I don't like the "remove all traces of the Chandrian" idea, because if that was their aim, why not lay low for a couple thousand years til the stories die out? Terribly boring, but it'd get the job done :)

I'll clarify a bit too - what I meant by "goal" was that it's something they need to achieve. Whether it's the end goal or not, I can't say. So maybe in D3 Kvothe throws out that the Chandrian's goal is to keep the doors of stone closed. Maybe then he states the door of stone is the Lackless door, and that door can only be opened when the conditions of the poem are met (ie with one who brings the blood). This is what I meant by goal - even though they're trying to keep the door closed, they're killing the Loeclos family to prevent that from happening.

Side note on the Sithe - not really related to this, but I find it hard to believe that the Sithe are enemies of both the Chandrian and the Cthaeh. I like the idea that the SIthe are actually working for the Cthaeh. That explains why they let Kvothe through to see him (because that's what he wanted). If Selitos is omniscient, then it would be easy for him to pick the appropriate people to have the Sithe kill so that everyone thinks they are guarding him.

stumpzapper - When you say Kvothe thinks the Chandrian killed his family based on that song, is that from information in the frame story or narrative? It makes sense in the narrative for him to keep mentioning that he thought the Chandrian killed his family for the song, because that's what he thought at that point in his life. That's different for the frame story though - if he made a comment there that he thought that's why the Chandrian killed his family then it would be his current belief.

Absolutely they could use the wedding as a chance to kill everyone who had seen the vase, but why wait that long? The "peg" guy (can't remember his name but it was German-peasant-esque) tells Kvothe and Denna that only five people saw the vase - Mauthen, his brother, their two kids and maybe his wife. In the six months after the vase was found, there should have been plenty of chances for the Chandrian to catch the five of them alone. Why not kill them then, steal the vase (or whatever) and not worry about sending Denna in?

I missed replying to that bit to jumbles but on sending someone into the forrest... I think Aculeus knows exactly what's going on, and that's a good motive for him to pull Kvothe across from the University. If Aculeus knows this, I think it's fair to say that Lacklesses in the past know about this as well (and this could have something to do with the family fight/split). So if Aculeus knows about this, what's the best way to prevent the Chandrian from killing the family line, but without letting anyone else find out? Hire them on as help, one by one, and keep them safe on your lands. Or, talk to your good friend the Maer and have him hire them for you to try and win your daughters hand :) In the same way that he got Kvothe over to Severen, he could have gotten other Loecloses across as well.

So why would they go out? Because they don't know any better. Aculeus and Meluan may be at Alveron's place when all this goes down. Whoever is looking after the lands keeps having his guards killed. So he sends out one of his good fighters, maybe the chief of his guard. Who happens to be an orphan that Aculeus picked up from Yll with a Lackey for a mother. Far from a smoking gun, but entirely plausible - and I think until D3 comes out that will be as close to "evidence" on this idea as we'll be able to get :) Remember, the Chandrian have been trying to kill these people for 5000 years - it might not be the best plan in the world, but it would have some non-zero chance of success, and they literally have all the time in the world.

I agree the motive needs work - I think the best one out of those at the moment is to wipe out the son who brings the blood and keep the Lackless door closed. Randomly, I had a dream the other day that I read D3 and Kvothe opened the Lackless door. He stepped through, and found himself in the archives with the four plate door open behind him. :bang:

On Haliax's reaction - I deliberately didn't mention whether or not I thought that wiping out the Loeclos line was a good or a bad thing. In fact, I think it makes the most sense to the story if it's a good thing (it would explain why Kvothe is resigned to die, because once he knows about it, he realises it's something that needs to be done, so doesn't fight it). So Haliax might not be running around and eagerly killing every one he finds. When I read that passage, I think he sounds more resigned, like "Dammit, I have to kill another kid.... Stop messing around Cinder and just do it painlessly." There's no rush because he knows he has all the time in the world. Unfortunately though someone praying behind him calls in the angels before it can happy - hence why the Cthaeh tells Kvothe he was lucky, and they were sloppy.

two_by_two - On someone piecing it together... we don't have any real clue on how it sounded when Arliden sung the song. Looking at the words, it's not immediately obvious that it sounds like "Netalia Lackless". But I imagine if you heard someone singing the song, it would be a lot more obvious. I have a hard time believing someone in their troupe sold them out, but I think it's entirely possible that he either sung this song (or maybe another one that was similar) in a town where someone made the connection. Sure, it's different sides of the country, but I'd imagine that the story of a noble lady running away with the Ruh would be popular among the common folk.

How the Chandrian would pick up on gossip - how would they pick up about the vase? :) Again, someone tells someone else in an inn their suspicions and the story starts to spread a little. If the Chandrian are killing Loecloses, then there's probably a good chance they knew about Netalia running away. In the same way that Cinder is setting up camp in the forest near the Lacklesses, one of the other Chandrian could be wandering around the Commonwealth looking for Netalia. That could also explain why they heard about the vase :)

The knowledge of the song - same deal. Farmer Joe hears Arliden sing the song to Laurian and makes the connection. Next night at the inn, he tells all his friends about how they were trying to cover it up by hiding her name in a song. But he's smarter than that, and he saw right through them. Mr Chandrian in the corner smiles and slips away :) Here's another idea completely off the cuff that I haven't thought through. When the Chandrian are named, they can heard everything around the people talking. So Arliden and Laurian may be singing about them, but at the same time Arliden is making jokes about his Tally. Probably needs a bit more work as an idea but maybe?

Ah - just read your next para, same idea :) It would pretty much mean whoever told the story would need to have Chandrian nearby. Maybe it's possible as well that the Chandrian have people working for them as well - like Denna. So someone else's "Denna" hears the story firsthand. That would be unlucky, but not impossible, especially if they were actively looking for them. They could have even traced the story back to its roots - so if they heard "Netalia is here" without the song, they follow it back to the original speaker to confirm it's authenticity.

Whoa - all those who follow you... nice catch! I like that idea... Selitos cursed Lanre after the betrayal of MT though... so maybe the original betrayal was because Selitos indirectly started the creation war leading to the death of Lyra. But after that, Lanre's family was cursed so he had no choice but to keep fighting. I like it :)

williamjm - Exactly! Absolutely anyone could be descended from the original pair. Given that they're being hacked away at over time, the number is likely a lot smaller now, but the idea is the same. I think it's also possible that groups of people might have their roots in the Loeclos family, like say the Ruh, the Ruarch, the Yllians, etc.

thistle - When you said word of God I started looking for quotes by Skarpi. Guess you meant PR :)

[JezDynamite]

Hi Bradd.

Why do you feel that the Chandrian only respond/react to people singing their names instead of people just saying their names?

I have the opinion that just saying someone's real name in the 4C's is powerful enough, and Selitos' curse on the Chandrian sounds like it doesn't have anything to do with singing.

And concerning the vase and what drew the Chandrian's attention to it: I don't know. I'm guessing that in the time between the discovery of the vase and the wedding, one of the Chandrian, or more likely one of their agents, heard rumors about the vase, which led them to take action.

Perhaps tinkers have something to do with passing information to the Chandrian? A bit of a wild guess. It could be anyone really. I can imagine the Chandrian have a network of contacts all over the 4Cs, without the agents knowing they work for the Chandrian themselves.

[JezDynamite]

Sorry for the Double post: previously, in the earlier post, I meant to say that I think saying their names was enough. I dont think the singing component is necessary. Sorry for the confusion. It must have been a late evening.

[jumbles]

All those that follow you. His offspring. The line of Lanre itself is cursed. Selitos screwed up the wording and accidentally caught Lanre's children in the blast. Or something like that. Maybe it was deliberate.

Nice idea.

"What did you sing last night?" I asked. "For the wedding."

"The usual," Denna said, kicking through a pile of leaves. "Bright stuff. 'Pennywhistle', 'Come Wash in the River', 'Copper Bottom Pot'." She chuckled. "'Aunt Emme's Tub'..."

If there's a link there to the Chandrian, then I can't see it - best I can think of is 'copper' but that's pretty weak? By the same token, if it was something Denna sang, why would they send her there in the first place?

I don't think it's necessary that a song be linked to the Chandrian. But despite that I came up with a possibility anyway. Aunt Emme's Tub sounds sort of like Alenta. Also, one of the pictures on the vase was a naked woman. That could be Alenta, which would make sense with Kvothe's reaction (thinking it inappropriate) to Denna singing Aunt Emme's Tub at a wedding if it's about a naked woman.

[two_by_two]

Off-topic post: I'm taking an English class currently, and this sort of hyper-analyzing and speculation has been incredibly useful in class. My teacher recommended that we look up the etymology of important words and look for parallels and basically exactly what we've been doing here. So thank you.

[stumpzapper]

Off-topic post: I'm taking an English class currently, and this sort of hyper-analyzing and speculation has been incredibly useful in class. My teacher recommended that we look up the etymology of important words and look for parallels and basically exactly what we've been doing here. So thank you.

This sort of discussion is useful in most fields. I'm in science and we do the same thing: come up with an idea, show some data to support it, then throw it out there for others to use as a pinata. Really sharpens your senses and your arguments after a giant in your field casually blasts gaping holes in your argument.

[bradd]

JezDynamite - The singing of the names thing was a path I followed before, but I don't think it's correct. Two things led me to it - firstly, it would explain why guys like Cob can name the Chandrian without repercussions. Secondly, when Haliax is talking to Cinder, he mentions the Sithe, the singers and the Amyr. Note that "singers" isn't capitalised. To me that suggests it's not a specific group of people (otherwise it would be the Singers). I thought maybe "singers" referred to people who put the Chandrian's name in songs. Like I said though - I don't think that's correct because it doesn't explain the Mauthen massacre.

As for the network of people working the Chandrian, sure sounds good. But that same argument can be used for knowing there would be a Loeclos present at the wedding :)

jumbles - Sure, but then why didn't they kill Denna? :)

two_by_two - Nice, your English is better than mine :) Out of interest, have you read the book in any other languages?

stumpzapper - Completely agree :) I don't think we'll be able to answer any of the big picture questions from NotW/WMF by saying this bit of the text means this must have happened, which means this must have happened, etc. I think the only way we'll get it is with a lucky guess that stands up to everyone trying to disprove it. I think that's pretty much what happened with the Aculeus conversation and I'm convinced on that now :) So shoot away :)

A little off topic, but I'm finding there's buckets of useful info in some of the earlier threads, but it's a bit hard to get at easily... not sure what the rules are for this site, but what's the odds of the mods putting aside a section of the forum for KKC speculation? That way you could have different threads on each of the important things?

[unJon]

A little off topic, but I'm finding there's buckets of useful info in some of the earlier threads, but it's a bit hard to get at easily... not sure what the rules are for this site, but what's the odds of the mods putting aside a section of the forum for KKC speculation?

Slim to none, and Slim's leaving.

[two_by_two]

two_by_two - Nice, your English is better than mine :) Out of interest, have you read the book in any other languages?

I'd like to try it in German, but I haven't yet. My German also probably is not good enough to derive anything particularly useful. I'll give it a try, though.

[JezDynamite]

firstly, it would explain why guys like Cob can name the Chandrian without repercussions.

I'm not too sure there were no repercussions. Didn't a sort-of skin-dancer appear the day after Cob told the tale at the Waystone Inn? For all we know, that creature could have been sent to the inn by the Chandrian (Cyphus). I wonder if the Chandrian personally act on each case when their names can be tracked or if they send minions (which could explain the skin-dancers confusion as it may have only been given a location to visit rather than a specific person). Could also explain he skin-dancer's sword being rusted, though that would imply the skin dancer was in the presence of a different Chadrian to Cyphus (blue flame vs rust).

But, to be pedantic, even though the Taborlin tale that Cob didn't finish was a familiar tale, Cob doesn't actually say Scyphus' name. Who knows if the familiar incomplete tale that Cob tells (trapped in a tower cell, no mention of Scyphus) is the same as Maarten's tale (trapped underground, plenty of mentions of Scyphus).

On the other hand, if your thoughts are right about Newarre being in Lackless lands, the appearance of the Scrael and the skin-dancer in Newarre could also tie in with the Chandrian tracking down the Lackless bloodline.

Secondly, when Haliax is talking to Cinder, he mentions the Sithe, the singers and the Amyr. Note that "singers" isn't capitalised. To me that suggests it's not a specific group of people (otherwise it would be the Singers). I thought maybe "singers" referred to people who put the Chandrian's name in songs. Like I said though - I don't think that's correct because it doesn't explain the Mauthen massacre.

Later, in book 2, "Singers" is capitalized (Ch. 35: Secrets). Disregarding my finicky point, I feel that saying their true name is enough to draw their attention. For all we know, there may have been one or more Chandrian names on the vase (there was foreign writing that Nina said was on the vase; you may be able to read foreign writing without understanding what you are reading, as long as you recognize the alphabet used). There is just too much that is not known. We only know that Nina thinks she accurately reproduced a third of the vase. And she couldn't reproduce any of the foreign writing on the vase (NW Ch. 82: Ash and Elm...).

As for the network of people working the Chandrian, sure sounds good. But that same argument can be used for knowing there would be a Loeclos present at the wedding :)

You are right. It can be used either way.

I like your ideas. I'm just not convinced. I still like the theory that just saying the Chandrian's names is enough to draw their attention (without singing).

[JezDynamite]

A bit more: maybe when only one of the Chandrian's names are said, the Chandrian who's name is mentioned may act without the help of the others.

But when many names are mentioned (e.g. Arliden suspected he'd collected a couple dozen names), perhaps the Chandrian see this as a bigger threat, so a whole bunch of them investigate personally.

[thistlepong]

I was really trying to see if I could effectively format Arliden and Laurian songs side by side. Then I started meandering. And then I watched GoT and went to sleep. In the spirit of productive piñata batting...

For one, the words that Arliden sings for Kvothe's birthday are fundamentally no different from the words that Denna sings later on.

I've always thought so...

Sit and listen all, for I will sing

..............................

Gather round and listen well,

A story, wrought and forgotten in a time

..............

For I’ve a tale of tragedy to tell.

Old and gone. A story of a man

...........................

I sing of subtle shadow spread

Proud Lanre, strong as the spring

.......................

Across a land, and of the man

Steel of the sword he had at ready hand.

............

Who turned his hand toward a purpose few could bear.

Hear how he fought, fell, and rose again,

............

Fair Lanre: stripped of wife, of life, of pride

To fall again. Under shadow falling then.

.............

Still never from his purpose swayed.

Love felled him, love for native land,

....................

Who fought the tide, and fell, and was betrayed.

And love of his wife Lyra, at whose calling

Some say he rose, through doors of death

To speak her name as his first reborn breath.

Arliden claims that he knew the purpose of the Chandrian. If that's the case, and it relates to killing people for singing/knowing about them, then why would he write a song about them that's likely to get them killed?

He wouldn't. But he doesn't believe they're real. So, annoyingly, we can't assume that would deter him. Just something to keep in mind.

two_by_two's reminded me twice now that we're looking at a story where the difference between slim and slender can make a difference. With that in mind, Haliax refers to their purpose, not their goal. We might consider being wary of looking for something that can be measured or quantitatively evaluated.

So two things out of that. First, Aleph (who spun the world out of a nameless void) is asking Selitos, Tehlu and the rest to do something for him. I think this task is protecting the Loeclos family from Lanre and the Chandrian. If they do this for him he will give them angel powers.

But importantly, there are rules. If they take this power, they can only strike at the Chandrian after they have seen them commit a crime. They can't act based on evidence or heresy. That's pretty good incentive for the Chandrian to strike secretly, rather than risking an all out war.

Skarpi2 is a fragment. Like a lot of other things in the story it has a cipher quality that attracts speculation. I end to resist guesses about what's being offered and why. Tehlu & Pals definitely get a power up after Aleph touches them; one that bears some resemblance to Kvothe when he fights Felurian. The staging is either bad or intentionally obscure. If you were directing it as a play as written, Tehlu would basically come up and kneel beside Selitos and the other eight would line up behind them. So you'd probably have Selitos stand and move away. And yet... I dunno. I think Kvothe missed something important and ruined our chances of sussing that out.

Still, it's a novel theory. Here's some bats at it.

• The Aturan Empire rose as Loeclos power declined. This is a Tehlin/Amyr organization. Seems like, rather than breaking the power of the family and eventually absorbing its lands, leaving it on top would have been a good plan.
  
• Or better yet, why not a Vintic or even Loeclos Empire?
  

If there's a link there to the Chandrian, then I can't see it - best I can think of is 'copper' but that's pretty weak? By the same token, if it was something Denna sang, why would they send her there in the first place?

This just means they weren't there for the song. Then the story moves on to the urn, which is a huge part of both books. You're asking us to ignore an awful lot of information in service of your theory. Still, if you could show evidence of Chandrian activity following Kvothe singing "Dark Laurian," it might strengthen your argument.

thistle - When you said word of God I started looking for quotes by Skarpi. Guess you meant PR :)

Word of God

[jumbles]

A few things here:

1. From WMFc2 we have the rhyme about Kvothe's rings.

On his first hand he wore rings of stone,

Iron, amber, wood, and bone.

There were rings unseen on his second hand.

One was blood in a flowing band.

One of air all whisper thin,

And the ring of ice had a flaw within.

Full faintly shone the ring of flame,

And the final ring was without name.

From NotWc28 we have Aleph creating the angels.

... and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow. Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood.

Seems like every set of wings can be matched with one of Kvothe's rings. Fire, iron, stone, and blood are explicitly mentioned. Ice with a flaw within could be a glass ring that was mistaken for ice (glass may be even more important now that we think obsidian may be important). And the ring without name could match up with the wings of shadow; there are multiple references to the nameless void, I could see shadow and void being linked.

2. In WMFc73, Kvothe compares a name to a key. Perhaps instead of his thrice-locked chest containing his name, his name is the third key he needs to open it.

3. The Siaru idiom "Tuan volgen oketh ama" means "don't let it make you crazy" but literally translates as "don't put a spoon in your eye over it" (NotWc41). I can't help but think of Selitos putting his own eye out. Maybe when Lanre lost the ability to go mad, Selitos did go mad. Though maybe the spoon itself is relevant. From NotWc46, "Elodin made it clear that anyone stupid enough to jump off a roof was too reckless to be allowed to hold a spoon in his presence." And in WMFc4 it is mentioned that Auri has one spoon.

4. From NotWc11 we have

Seven things has Lady Lackless

Keeps them underneath her black dress

Perhaps "black dress" is actually improperly translated from "Blac of Drossen Tor" and the things are supposed to be under the battlefield. That is an important place for her since that is where she resurrected Lanre.

5. Chronicler mentions a rumor that there is a new Chandrian with red hair. We know from WMFc128 that "Grey Dalcenti never speaks" (or from other languages, "Dalcenti, the one with the grayish silence, never speaks"). Well, silence is always said to be around Kote in the frame story (especially in the prologues and epilogues).

6. Perhaps Kvothe is Tehlu's son (or even Tehlu reborn, but I think that less likely). Kvothe does not really resemble is father, his parents even joke about his mother bedding down with a wandering god (NotWc12). Kvothe grew up fast, people always coment that he doesn't sound as young as he looks, and emotionally and mentally he seems very advanced for his age. Menda, Tehlu reborn in Trapis' story, also grew up fast (though Menda grew to manhood in less than two months). Also, Kvothe seems to have a real gift for sympathy and naming. For the sympathy he manages to blister and burn Master Hemme with a wax and hair simulacra which he shouldn't have been able to do according to Kilvin (NotWc40). For naming he somehow names Felurian almost as soon as he encounters her. And also, when Kvothe named Felurian, his "power rode like a white star" on his brow, which sounds very familiar to Tehlu and the others when Aleph gave them more power. In NotWc6, Chronicler says he thought Kvothe would be older, and Kvothe replies that he is (though he may just say that because of his time spent in the Fae).

[bradd]

unJon - Thanks... do you know if it's a case of being too far OT for the domain name or is it a money/sponsor thing? :)

two_by_two - If you do get a chance, please let us know. I'd be interested to see what letters are capitalised in the letter that Denna sends Kvothe from Yll... :)

JezDynamite - Interesting, I didn't notice the second time it's capitalised. I wonder if that's an error in NotW or WMF? Because they both mean different things... Only other option I can think is that Kvothe originally thought it was "singers" but then changed that to "Singers" after he heard about a group of people?

thistle - Nice comparison on the songs there... I had a crackpot theory while I was reading it too :) What if the doors of stone referred to in D3 are the doors to death? So someone is killed (Denna is an obvious candidate) and Kvothe brings her back to life a la Lyra/Lanre? Lyra died (so we're led to believe) but it would explain Kvothe being resigned to die as well.

Agree Arliden doesn't believe in them - my bad, I meant to address this in the first post. I kinda got the impression that Ben talked a bit of sense into him after the conversation that Kvothe overheard and I'd like to think they were a bit more careful after that. But yeah, that's definitely not rock solid - if it's a name thing, by that stage it may have been too late.

Purpose vs goal - again, agree whole heartedly. That's why I like "keeping the Lackless door closed" as motive. That's more of a purpose than a goal... although maybe saying "protecting the world from the Lackless door being opened" makes more sense.

The Aturan Empire thing is interesting. It's a whack at the theory for Yll as well (if there is some connection between Lackless and Yll, why would the Arturan empire hit Yll?). Coincidently though, the rise of the Aturan Empire occurred around when the Loeclos family split (by Caudicus). Maybe someone in the Loeclos line figured out what the Chandrian were doing, and agreed with them (that the door should remain closed). They split the family down the middle of people for and against the Chandrian. Half end up in Atur and half end up in Yll/Vintas. I guess the real kicker is why Tehlu would side with those that agreed with Chandrian. I don't like this idea, buuuutttt.... technically there's nothing in the story that Tehlu agrees with the purpose of the Tehlins. Sure, they've got their stories of all these things he supposedly did, but the founders of the church could either be heretics who completely misunderstand the purpose or just not in on it. The only bit of supporting "evidence" I have for that is the Tehlin Amyr. What they do, they do for the "greater good", which is direct contravention to what Tehlu agreed to with Aleph. I don't know - I don't really like that idea, but it's all I can think of at the moment :)

Do you mean after Kvothe sings it to Sim and Wil? I don't think the song would have the same impact then - if they killed Laurian for being a Lackless then they know she's already dead. I guess they'd be after Kvothe though (should be after him really, any way it goes). I'll keep my eye out :)

jumbles - Nice work :)

1. Good catch - "That they might go where they wish". Maybe mastery over those elements allows you to teleport? Bit far fetched, but I still haven't heard a decent explanation for why the Chandrian can just disappear.

2. Nice idea - for the life of me I cannot come up what's in the thrice-locked chest. If it's just a name, why so big? It's kind of like the Loeclos box pre-obsidian stone idea... scrael didn't sit too well, but it was the best answer out there. Ditto for Kvothe's name here.

3. Nice catch - maybe the Loeclos box contains the obsidian spoon? :P

4. I like the idea (credit to thistle) that the "black dress" is a cloak of shadow. Blac of Drossen Tor is a nice connection, but the name Lackless has only been around a thousand or so years. I can't get "Loeclos" and "black dress" to rhyme... so if the song is older than "Lackless" (which I think it is) then I don't think it would always have been "black dress".

5. Couple of points - in one of the translations of WMF, Dalcenti was written to be "genderless". All others (bar Alenta) were males. Nina mentions two females on the Mauthen vase. Not definitive evidence for Dalcenti being female, but fits the theme. Second point - I'm assuming you've seen then cover of NotW with someone standing there in a black cloak next to a tree, all wrapped in shadow. The current Australian version of the book has a very similar picture, but there's red hair peaking out from under the hood. He looks very "Chandrian" to me :)

6. Kvothe as a descendant to Tehlu - nice idea. I think Kvothe is definitely the descendant of someone powerful (I like Lyra/Lanre from the Lady Lackless poem). On Tehlu - what do think Trapis' connection to Tehlu is? I find Trapis interesting because he isn't really mentioned in WMF but has a kind of random part in NotW. He also names Kvothe when he shouldn't be able to recognise him, which seems to be a telltale sign of a namer. I think Trapis=Tehlu is far fetched, but I think we'll find some sort of relationship there in D3....

[jumbles]

5. Couple of points - in one of the translations of WMF, Dalcenti was written to be "genderless". All others (bar Alenta) were males. Nina mentions two females on the Mauthen vase. Not definitive evidence for Dalcenti being female, but fits the theme.

6. Kvothe as a descendant to Tehlu - nice idea. I think Kvothe is definitely the descendant of someone powerful (I like Lyra/Lanre from the Lady Lackless poem). On Tehlu - what do think Trapis' connection to Tehlu is? I find Trapis interesting because he isn't really mentioned in WMF but has a kind of random part in NotW. He also names Kvothe when he shouldn't be able to recognise him, which seems to be a telltale sign of a namer. I think Trapis=Tehlu is far fetched, but I think we'll find some sort of relationship there in D3....

5. I wasn't suggesting that Kvothe was Dalcenti. I'd be more inclined to believe that Kvothe replaced Dalcenti. That would be strange though since IIRC the Cthaeh told him he'd only meet Cinder a total of three times. I guess Dalcenti and Cinder could both die and Kvothe takes Dalcenti's place while maybe Denna takes Cinder's. I'm not saying this is what I believe though.

6. I'm inclined to believe that Trapis is basically what he appears to be. Surely not every character in this series is a superhero in disguise. Also, as additional evidence for Kvothe = Tehlu's son, angels may have tendency to show up when Kvothe is in danger. They possibly show up both times Kvothe has a run-in with one or more Chandrian (though the second time Marten was praying to Tehlu). Also, one may have shown up when Kvothe almost froze to death in Tarbean.

[two_by_two]

The Aturan Empire thing is interesting. It's a whack at the theory for Yll as well (if there is some connection between Lackless and Yll, why would the Arturan empire hit Yll?). Coincidently though, the rise of the Aturan Empire occurred around when the Loeclos family split (by Caudicus).

Slightly far-fetched theory coming up:

Suppose that the human Amyr are not in fact on the side of the nonhuman Amyr. There are a few possible explanations for how this could come to pass. Firstly, our supposed "rogue Amyr" founded them. Secondly, and more reasonably, the Chandrian aided in their founding to discredit the nonhuman Amyr.

Now, we know that the Aturan Empire is associated with the human Amyr. Then suddenly the enemies of the Loeclos family are in a position of power. They have the might of the church and the state behind them. There are enough intermediaries that the angels cannot trace any acts of the state back to the Chandrian, who are as a result safe to do as they will, namely, destroying the Loeclos family.

How do the family members escape? Simple. Each heads in a different direction. Some change their names (hence the name Kaepcaen, which seems a bit of an outlier). The branch that remains in Atur, the Lack-key family, falls on hard times due to the covert oppression. Other branches, out of reach of the institutionalized power of the Chandrian, do better.

[Nisheeth]

What if The Lackless are descended from Selitos? Then, Lanre has much more of a personal reason for trying to kill That family.

He also names Kvothe when he shouldn't be able to recognise him

Are you referring to the time in WMF, when he went to see Trapis, he recognized him?

[thistlepong]

B-but, the Singers were pretty much allied with the Aturan Empire. We know Tehlu, Andan, and Ordal all feature prominently in the Book of the Path. We can probably assume the other six are as well. That makes it a little hard to swallow that the Seven set up the church, the empire, and the Amyr. I suppose I'd be all for it, except it really looks like they actually respond when Marten calls on them at the bandit camp.

[two_by_two]

B-but, the Singers were pretty much allied with the Aturan Empire. We know Tehlu, Andan, and Ordal all feature prominently in the Book of the Path. We can probably assume the other six are as well. That makes it a little hard to swallow that the Seven set up the church, the empire, and the Amyr. I suppose I'd be all for it, except it really looks like they actually respond when Marten calls on them at the bandit camp.

I said it was far-fetched. It's been quite a while since I've actually read the books. My argument was that just because they feature in the Book of the Path doesn't mean they had a hand in its writing. And if the Chandrian do play the long game and strive for a beautiful one as well... well, what is more beautiful than seeing people commit atrocities in your opponents' names?

[bradd]

jumbles - Kvothe only met Cinder three times? I must have missed that... I thought he'd only met him twice up to the point he visits the Cthaeh?

two_by_two - I don't think that's a crackpot theory at all... I'm definitely thinking something like that must be the case. I think there's just too many inconsistencies between the way the human Amyr act and what is implied of Tehlu. Tehlu deliberately refused to join Selitos's Amyr, but then he founds his own Amyr that can do whatever it likes for the greater good? I don't buy it.

Nisheeth - Lackless from Selitos makes sense, but it seems odd that they never talk about his wife... with Lanre, we specifically have Lyra, so a "mum and dad" of the family. On Trapis - yup, when Kvothe walks in looking completely different, he is surprised that Trapis can name him. I agree it's likely a red herring, but in a book that's all about people who can name other people (like what Skarpi does) then I think we need to at least take notice of it. Kvothe also makes a statement about how Trapis always knew who it was, no matter how they looked (something like that - I don't have the book here).

thistle/two_by_two - Agree with both :) I think the real angels (Tehlu, etc) are responding to the prayers and are saving Kvothe. But that just strikes me as the complete opposite of what the human Amyr seem to be about? The angels don't do "greater good" but that's what the Amyr are founded on. It could also explain why Felurian scoffs at Kvothe when he asks about human Amyr... because they're not really supported by the angels/real Amyr. Heck, they could even be the Chandrian in disguise :)