The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[red snow]

Reading this on the kindle and im really enjoying it despite the fact nothing substantial has happened. there seems to be more humour in this one too.

[jumbles]

jumbles - Kvothe only met Cinder three times? I must have missed that... I thought he'd only met him twice up to the point he visits the Cthaeh?

No, I said that I thought the Cthaeh said he would only meet Cinder three times, not that he had already met Cinder three times.

[Sci-2]

Reading this on the kindle and im really enjoying it despite the fact nothing substantial has happened. there seems to be more humour in this one too.

Yeah, this novel surprised me that excepting the juvenile writing of women and centering on Kvothe (admittedly my least favorite character in a series I ironically enjoy) there is a strangely enjoyable quality to the students just hanging out and having Saved by the Bell antics.

[thistlepong]

LA Times Interview

HC: So if you were to make a list, what would be the top five fantasy clichés that people should avoid?

PR: Boy, it’s hard to limit it to just five…

1. Prophecy. I don’t ever want to read another novel about “the chosen one.”

2. The helpless damsel. I’ve known a fair number of damsels in my day. The vast majority of them don’t need saving.

3. Elves with bows who live in trees. Dwarves with axes who live in caves. It was fine when Tolkien did it, but that was 60 years ago. It’s time for us to move on.

4. Brooding vampires. Any sort of vampire should probably be avoided at this point. The genre is kinda overrun.

5. Dragons. As above.

The Lackless poems are not a prophecy practically confirmed.

[jurble]

I was playing a video game a while back. In the game, you fight a dragon. And you know what? It was great. I was running around, getting burned by fire, worried I was going to die. It was exciting, dramatic. Then, a little while later, you fight another dragon. Then another. And another. And eventually, I’m just irritated by them.

He can't just say he was playing Skyrim? There's...uh no other game that fits that description.

[bradd]

Noticed he didn't mention Robert Jordan... :)

[Sci-2]

I was playing a video game a while back. In the game, you fight a dragon. And you know what? It was great. I was running around, getting burned by fire, worried I was going to die. It was exciting, dramatic. Then, a little while later, you fight another dragon. Then another. And another. And eventually, I’m just irritated by them.

This reminds me of a book where the teenager keeps fucking older women who inexplicably want him and there are no other hot nice guys around but him so no one every threatens his status as hottest alpha male.

Eventually, I just got irritated.

ETA: Though I think his list is a good one, and an interesting insight into the Doors of Stone:

1. Prophecy. I don’t ever want to read another novel about “the chosen one.”

2. The helpless damsel. I’ve known a fair number of damsels in my day. The vast majority of them don’t need saving.

3. Elves with bows who live in trees. Dwarves with axes who live in caves. It was fine when Tolkien did it, but that was 60 years ago. It’s time for us to move on.

4. Brooding vampires. Any sort of vampire should probably be avoided at this point. The genre is kinda overrun.

5. Dragons. As above.

The prophecy part makes me wonder about Kvothe's bloodline. It wouldn't exactly be a prophecy if he just happened to have the necessary bloodline to open the Doors of Stone.

The helpless damsel part makes me wonder how Kvothe will fuck up his relationship with Denna. Will his efforts to save her somehow either get her killed or make them part ways?

[williamjm]

The Lackless poems are not a prophecy practically confirmed.

Despite what he says there, I'm not sure I'd rule it out entirely, since it would be hard to claim after a novel where the main character had a lengthy conversation with a prophetic sentient tree that Rothfuss would never have prophecy as a plot device. Given his apparent interest in trying to subvert fantasy tropes, I wonder if we might get a 'false messenger' prophecy where the Lackless poem is a prophecy of sorts but trying to fulfil the prophecy would be a bad idea. After all he does have a dragon that's not really a dragon, so we may get a prophecy that's not really a traditional fantasy prophecy.

[thistlepong]

There's nothing the Cthaeh says that couldn't have been plucked right out of of Kvothe's head. :devil:

Goodness boy, you’re like a clear pool. I can see ten feet through you, and you’re barely three feet deep.

[Nisheeth]

There's nothing the Cthaeh says that couldn't have been plucked right out of of Kvothe's head

Apart from the statement that Kvothe has to go to Haert to know more about the Seven.

But he may already have known that the song about them existed from someone else?

[bradd]

The Cthaeh says stacks of stuff that Kvothe doesn't know - about the Adem, about Denna's patron beating her with a walking stick, about the Maer leading him toward the Amyr (before Kvothe knows the Maer was looking for them)... The Cthaeh not being able to tell the future (or lying) doesn't fit the story. If that's the case, then Felurian and Bast both must be lying as well (they say the Cthaeh tells the truth). And if they're lying about that, they could be lying about other things and all of a sudden everyone in the story is lying and anything's possible. Occam's razor suggests the Cthaeh is telling the truth - and in the context of the story that works, makes sense and there's no real reason for him to be lying.

Ditto on Laurian=Netalia. If Laurian isn't Netalia, that's not a "great twist" in D3, it's a failing because it makes no sense to the story. If all that PR did was highlight the similarities between Laurian and Netalia, and they turned out to be different people then that's fine. But he hasn't - he's given us a song that pretty much states that Laurian=Netalia. And that song makes absolutely no sense to the story if Laurian isn't Netalia - it would purely be a red herring. So why put it in? Looking at the story - Chronicler is sitting there writing word for word what Kvothe says. He's not allowed to question anything but must write as it's spoken. So why put in a red herring when you're going to reveal the real answer the next day? It makes no sense. Chronicler isn't guessing about whether or not Kvothe has told him the truth because he's expecting to get the truth. Completely different story if Denna's patron turns out not to be Cinder. That would be great writing (if he pulled it off convincingly). All the evidence for that can be interpreted multiple ways - but there's no evidence there that doesn't make sense if it's not true. But if Laurian isn't Netalia, then the whole things kinda dumb, and I think PR is better than that.

[thistlepong]

Cthaeh never mentions the Adem. It mentions the Stormwal. Elodin had already mentioned the edge of the map. Kvothe knows Denna's patron is beating her. The walking stick... yah, sure, that's a novel detail. And he was counting on Alveron's resources for aid in his search for the Amyr before he left Severen.

Keep a couple things in mind, though. None of the above, bradd's version or mine, constitutes a prophecy. Just a manipulative jerk trapped in a tree. Nor does that make the things Cthaeh says untrue.

Laurian being Netalia likewise doesn't constitute a prophecy, nor does it have anything to do with the poems save superficially. The poems in and of themselves could be just that: poems. Clever japes about a disgraced noblewoman, a family heirloom, some crazy bs the family gets up to. Heck, the Vintic version could describe things that already, "stand before then entrance to the Lackless door." Lord and lady, that's a clunky phrase.

[two_by_two]

Okay something's weird and it's not letting me quote or reply to things. So I'll just make do.

bradd: If that's the case, then Felurian and Bast both must be lying as well (they say the Cthaeh tells the truth).

Not necessarily. Part of the what makes this story so interesting is that it treads the line between what happened and what people say happened. The Cthaeh being able to see the future/always tell the truth is what people say, not necessarily how it actually is.

That being said, I think if we start dismissing everything the Cthaeh says, the story becomes a lot less interesting, so I'm a fan of believing Bast and Felurian when they describe the Cthaeh.

[Sci-2]

My understanding is that the Cthaeh can see probable futures a persons psychology like reading it from a computer program and thus predict which way things are likely to go.

[Gaston de Foix]

Hey, guys posting on this thread after a long time. I'm slowly re-reading the very extensive discussions here since I've forgotten much. I did re-read NOTW and WMF recently so I'm sharing some (I think) novel insights. Be gentle...

1. NOTW- Kvothe claims he "counseled Kings". Since he doesn't do this is in either NOTW or WMF, I take this as support for my theory that Kvothe will eventually visit Renere and meet Roderic Calanthis as well as Princess Ariel there. And yes, I know that Maer has many powers similar to that of a King and is variously described as älmost as rich as the King of Vint, as rich as the King of Vint and richer than the King of Vint. He is not however a King and Kvothe claims to have counselled Kings.

2. Auri is (probably) not Fae, but she clearly lives in Faerie.

3.

The whole debate about Skarpi knowing Kvothe's name- I've noticed one curious feature, in Skarpi 2, Skarpi recommends Kvothe take to the rooftops. This implies Skarpi has made discrete enquiries and found out that Kvothe generally lived on the roofs- it being no part of a Namer's power to magically know where a person lives, I am inclined to think the explanation is Skarpi asked around and found out Kvothé's name and where Kvothe lived.

4. The gift of a single Cinnas fruit, which Elodin makes to Auri, is a terrible insult to a section of the Faen.

[thistlepong]

Damn. I was only three days from retirement.

Hey, guys posting on this thread after a long time. I'm slowly re-reading the very extensive discussions here since I've forgotten much. I did re-read NOTW and WMF recently so I'm sharing some (I think) novel insights. Be gentle...

1. NOTW- Kvothe claims he "counseled Kings". Since he doesn't do this is in either NOTW or WMF, I take this as support for my theory that Kvothe will eventually visit Renere and meet Roderic Calanthis as well as Princess Ariel there. And yes, I know that Maer has many powers similar to that of a King and is variously described as älmost as rich as the King of Vint, as rich as the King of Vint and richer than the King of Vint. He is not however a King and Kvothe claims to have counselled Kings.

2. Auri is (probably) not Fae, but she clearly lives in Faerie.

3.

The whole debate about Skarpi knowing Kvothe's name- I've noticed one curious feature, in Skarpi 2, Skarpi recommends Kvothe take to the rooftops. This implies Skarpi has made discrete enquiries and found out that Kvothe generally lived on the roofs- it being no part of a Namer's power to magically know where a person lives, I am inclined to think the explanation is Skarpi asked around and found out Kvothé's name and where Kvothe lived.

4. The gift of a single Cinnas fruit, which Elodin makes to Auri, is a terrible insult to a section of the Faen.

1. Still the most promising and succinct king theory and decent speculation on Ariel. I hope you'll elaborate on it.
   
2. What exactly makes it clear that Auri lives in Faen?
   
3. There are a few instances of namers pulling similar stunts, though none so dramatic. Elodin, for example, could have plenty of informants watching Kvothe, I suppose. But that wouldn't explain his ability to look into Kvothe and find the word that woke his sleeping mind.
   
4. Here's the quote:
   

I learned you must never look at one of the Thiana with both eyes at once, and that the gift of a single cinnas fruit is considered a terrible insult if given to one of the Beladari.

There's no further mention of that faction/subrace. Interestingly, the first mention of cinnas fruit is as a scent in Devi's flat. Later, during the scene with Elodin, Kvothe makes a point of it being too expensive for people like him. The earlier bit may simply be a lampshade for Devi;s burgeoning wealth. Or it may illuminate a contradiction.

[Gaston de Foix]

were you really going to retire Thistle- I hope not.

Tell to the king that the carven hall is fallen in decay;

Apollo has no chapel left, no prophesying bay,

No talking spring. The stream is dry that had so much to say.

I'll elaborate on the King theory in a little bit but I wanted to say re skarpi 2, by all account Kvothe is a calling name. not "the secret music that lies at the heart of him" or words to that effect that Kvothe uses in Ademre and which is a much closer approximation of K's true name I assume. Skarpi might realise Kvothe's true name, but that wouldn't magically tell him Kvthe's calling name or that Kvothe takes to the rooftops to survive.

Elodin's knowledge of Kvothe's comings and goings and deeds puzzles me too, - meeting him by the Omethi bridg overhearing his conversation at the Eolian, his lack of surprise at Kvothe's return. I have no hesitation in saying Elodin knows Kvothe's name or part of it, but Skarpi is a very different kettle of fish from Elodin.

so in terms of magic systems the fabled six sympathy, sygaldry, alchemy, naming, shaping and glamourie right?

[two_by_two]

were you really going to retire Thistle- I hope not.

I'll elaborate on the King theory in a little bit but I wanted to say re skarpi 2, by all account Kvothe is a calling name. not "the secret music that lies at the heart of him" or words to that effect that Kvothe uses in Ademre and which is a much closer approximation of K's true name I assume. Skarpi might realise Kvothe's true name, but that wouldn't magically tell him Kvthe's calling name or that Kvothe takes to the rooftops to survive.

I hope not as well, thistle.

We believe that knowing a calling name is an early step on the road to knowing a true name. Kvothe guesses the calling name of Nell in the inn at the end of NotW.

[unJon]

I hope not as well, thistle.

We believe that knowing a calling name is an early step on the road to knowing a true name. Kvothe guesses the calling name of Nell in the inn at the end of NotW.

Is that the royal we?

[Tears of Lys]

I read past that point that you bring up, Gaston, and didn't pay it enough mind, the one where Kvothe says he's counseled kings. I think the Maer will become a king in book three. His colors of ivory and blue, IIRC, as others have noted, are on the soldiers who kick Kvothe's ass, AND he's certainly done enough counseling of the Maer.

Something else occurred to me as I was reading these posts. Skarpi knows Kvothe's calling name without being told, right? Skarpi also tells Kvothe not to worry when the Tehlins come in, rough-handle him and arrest him, that he has friends yet in the church. I would imagine these friends would be fairly high up in order to get him out of this fix. The Amyr were thought to be a part of the Tehlin church (we know that they're older than that, but stick with me.) Some of the Amyr COULD still be a part of the Tehlin church. It's been theorized that the Amyr are keeping an eye on Kvothe (several boarders have brought up things like his seeing an "angel" when he's badly beaten and left lying in the snow in Tarbean, and when his troupe are slaughtered by the Chandrian, why the Amyr, or another Chandrian enemy, essentially chase the 7 off.)

It would seem to follow that Skarpi is either one of the Amyr, or communicates with them, and Kvothe is a hot topic of discussion.

ETA: And I just realized that we're attributing an awful lot to the Amyr. The "Singers" have as much right to the credit for chasing off the Chandrian after Kvothe's family were killed as the Amyr do. And it would seem right that beings called "Singers" would be drawn to an entertaining Ruh troupe. But maybe that's just a little too cute...