danm_999 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Would explain this little question Tyrion ponders when looking at a map:The Freehold’s grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself. Odd, that.Dragonstone is no more than a rock. The wealth was farther west, but they had dragons. Surely they knew that it was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 <snip>I think it's very cleverly said. "Surely they knew what was there."Um, yes. They DID know what was there. And stayed the hell away. I'm more interested in what compelled Aegon to land when he did. Did they get an "all clear" of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I've long been of the opinion that warging was how Valyrians controlled their dragons. It would explain some of the dragons behavior in terms of "liking" some people, it would explain why they didn't just fry their dragon riders because more conventional training seems implausible at best, and finally there are multiple instances where Targaryans were described as having dreams about dragons that could be much like the wolf dreams the Stark kids have before they learn to warg consciously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think it's very cleverly said. "Surely they knew what was there."Um, yes. They DID know what was there. And stayed the hell away. I'm more interested in what compelled Aegon to land when he did. Did they get an "all clear" of some sort?I also find it interesting that ONLY the Targaryan's survived the Doom, and only shortly thereafter invade Westeros. There is more to this part of the story than we know yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I've long been of the opinion that warging was how Valyrians controlled their dragons. It would explain some of the dragons behavior in terms of "liking" some people, it would explain why they didn't just fry their dragon riders because more conventional training seems implausible at best, and finally there are multiple instances where Targaryans were described as having dreams about dragons that could be much like the wolf dreams the Stark kids have before they learn to warg consciously.But Dany doesn't have any interaction with her dragons the way the Starks do with their direwolves. She never actually "slips their skins" or actually sees through their eyes. I tend to believe that it is spells and horns that the Valyrians used and that "blood of the dragon" is pretty meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I also find it interesting that ONLY the Targaryan's survived the Doom, and only shortly thereafter invade Westeros. There is more to this part of the story than we know yet.The targs were lucky to have escaped, among valyrians they were not special. Just another noble family. Fear of wargs kept them away, but something changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 But Dany doesn't have any interaction with her dragons the way the Starks do with their direwolves. She never actually "slips their skins" or actually sees through their eyes. I tend to believe that it is spells and horns that the Valyrians used and that "blood of the dragon" is pretty meaningless.Drogon's reactions to Dany are not all that different than the direwolves reaction their respective wargs early on. In fact I don't recall Jon doing either of those yet we know he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The targs were lucky to have escaped, among valyrians they were not special. Just another noble family. Fear of wargs kept them away, but something changed.Why were they lucky when every other valyrian noble family was not? If it was as simply as they were not present, then why where they the only Noble family not present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think it's very cleverly said. "Surely they knew what was there."Um, yes. They DID know what was there. And stayed the hell away. I'm more interested in what compelled Aegon to land when he did. Did they get an "all clear" of some sort?I'd guess they either forgot in the generations in between the Doom and Aegon's landing, or the Targaryens were not privy to details other Valyrians may have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Drogon's reactions to Dany are not all that different than the direwolves reaction their respective wargs early on. In fact I don't recall Jon doing either of those yet we know he can.Either of those what?The Stark kids whose POVs we have with their wolves — Jon, Bran and Arya — are able to see through their wolves' eyes and "become" them, for all intents and purposes, even when they aren't consciously doing so. Arya is in Braavos, and yet she can still bond with Nymeria in the Riverlands. Dany has done none of that. When Drogon was missing, for example, did Dany ever dream that she was him, flying around Essos? No. Because Dany isn't a warg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why were they lucky when every other valyrian noble family was not? If it was as simply as they were not present, then why where they the only Noble family not present?Supposedly one of them had a daughter who foresaw the Doom, and that's how they got away. It's very delicately implied though that they were exiled to Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why were they lucky when every other valyrian noble family was not? If it was as simply as they were not present, then why where they the only Noble family not present?Other Valryian families did escape, just not other Valyrian families with dragons. House Velaryon for example, are Valyrian descended (no shocker given their name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Either of those what?The Stark kids whose POVs we have with their wolves — Jon, Bran and Arya — are able to see through their wolves' eyes and "become" them, for all intents and purposes, even when they aren't consciously doing so. Arya is in Braavos, and yet she can still bond with Nymeria in the Riverlands. Dany has done none of that.Where has Jon or Sansa done any of those things? Bran started dreaming of wolves fairly early on but didn't warg until later. Arya started having dreams in book 2 but didn't consciously warg until much later. Tragaryans's reportedly all had dreams of dragons so Dany is potentially farther along than any of the Starks except Bran or Arya. We also see multiple occasions of Drogon responding to Dany's emotional state much like the direwolves do with the Stark kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brony Stark Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Where has Jon or Sansa done any of those things? Bran started dreaming of wolves fairly early on but didn't warg until later. Arya started having dreams in book 2 but didn't consciously warg until much later. Tragaryans's reportedly all had dreams of dragons so Dany is potentially farther along than any of the Starks except Bran or Arya. We also see multiple occasions of Drogon responding to Dany's emotional state much like the direwolves do with the Stark kids.Jon has warged into Ghost multiple times, and Lady was killed before Sansa could develop her warging abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Other Valryian families did escape, just not other Valyrian families with dragons.And that doesn't sound strange to you? What credible reason would there be for that? Sure it could just be a plot hole but I think it's more likely that there is more to that part of the story than we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Where has Jon or Sansa done any of those things? Bran started dreaming of wolves fairly early on but didn't warg until later. Arya started having dreams in book 2 but didn't consciously warg until much later. Tragaryans's reportedly all had dreams of dragons so Dany is potentially farther along than any of the Starks except Bran or Arya. We also see multiple occasions of Drogon responding to Dany's emotional state much like the direwolves do with the Stark kids.Sansa's loss of Lady probably impeded her warging talent, but I have no doubt that it's (still) there. GRRM confirmed that all six Stark children were wargs.The Targaryen dragon dreams were prophetic visions ("I dreamt of a dragon hatching at Whitewalls, etc."), not actual skinchanging. The dragons they saw were symbols of Targaryens (Baelor Breakspear, Aegon V, etc.). They were not skinchanging into literal dragons.Please point to me to the passage where Dany actually sees through the eyes of Drogon, Rhaegal or Viserion.If you honestly don't recall Jon entering Ghost and seeing through his eyes, I have nothing further to say to you until you go back and do a reread. Because it's happened multiple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Jon has warged into Ghost multiple times, and Lady was killed before Sansa could develop her warging abilities.Where? At best he's had dreams, he doesn't consciously warg yet. Sansa has her dog now, and has yet to consciously warg or even dream so far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~LeTargaryen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 However, I kind of would like to see Bran warg a dragon.. :cool4:That's what I've been thinking about. Bran could be one of the "three heads of the dragon". His abillity to slip into animals' and people's skins has been proven more and more powerful. With such a great power couldn't Bran control one of the dragons just by slipping into its skin? The three-eyed crow itself told him he would need to learn to fly...what better way to do that than being a dragon warg? The prophecy doesn't necessarily mean that he has to mount the mount over a dragon, but that we would be able to control it. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Where? At best he's had dreams, he doesn't consciously warg yet. Sansa has her dog now, and has yet to consciously warg or even dream so far as we know.... I'm pretty sure it's still warging even if you're doing it unconsciously. And it's happened several times, as early as the second book.If you're arguing that warging isn't warging unless it's conscious, then Dany REALLY doesn't qualify, unless you can point to a moment when she consciously skinchanges into one of her dragons? (She doesn't do it unconsciously either, but hey, shits and giggles.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brony Stark Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Where? At best he's had dreams, he doesn't consciously warg yet. Sansa has her dog now, and has yet to consciously warg or even dream so far as we know.Dogs don't equal Direwolves, especially those the Stark direwolves. And she has hardly been around the dog long enough for it to matter,And she is now away from it. As for Jon. He has warged before, he just never understood what was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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