When did Daenerys Targaryen become your least favourite character?

[BabyMeraxes]

I've never understood why people who like a particular character find it necessary to find their way into threads SPECIFICALLY geared towards fans of the series who don't like that character. I'm not sure If they think that they can somehow change the minds and opinions of other people? Or if they believe that commenting on how little you like a fictional character on these boards is sone new form of cyber-bullying? But regardless it seems like a gigantic waste of time. Just an opinion

Literary discussions can get really good when two opposing perspectives interact. As long as everyone remains civil, articulate and focused, you can really get some awesome insight. There are some really smart people on these boards, and getting well thought out opposing views helps me look at the text more critically, and I appreciate that.

[jlk7e]

I think it's a good point that we (or, at least, those of us that aren't inveterate Dany haters) are more sympathetic to Dany than we otherwise might be because we see her actions almost entirely from her point of view. The only other POVs we get that even know her at all are Quentyn and Barristan, and I don't think in either of them we ever actually see them interact with Dany. You can see something similar with Jaime, whom I imagine most readers disliked before we got his POV in the third book.

That said, Cersei became, if anything, less sympathetic when we got her POV. And Aeron and Victarion are hardly sympathetic POVs, so it's not just that.

I also think that there's some relevant differences between Melisandre and Dany, in that Melisandre is a religious fanatic, motivated almost entirely by that fanaticism. Since most of us readers aren't religious fanatics, and none of us (I assume) are fanatical devotees of R'hlorr, that makes her motivations very hard for us as readers to sympathize with, even after we get her POV. While Dany's actions may, in some sense, be as bad as Melisandre's, her motives are much easier to empathize with. (I'd also say that Mirri Maz Duur, who does truly awful things to a girl who was trying to help her, seems much more deserving of getting burned than Alester Florent or Lord Sunglass do).

At any rate, I think I share a lot of the frustration with Dany. I found it irritating in the first book that she falls in love with the raping barbarian asshole to whom she's sold; her infatuation with Daario is even more annoying; her decision to stay in Meereen is worst of all. But the last factor, at least, doesn't make me hate Dany - it makes me annoyed at Martin, whose command of plotting seems to have escaped his grasp since the third book.

At any rate, while Dany is certainly not my favorite character, she's still an interesting character, and I'll be interested to see what happens to her.

[BabyMeraxes]

Dear Everyone:

I got to the part in Dance with Dragons where Dany has the wineseller and his daughter tortured. That was pretty bullshit, and obviously a petty act of desperation. HOWEVER, the following scene where she comforts Messandi somewhat made up for it. SOMEWHAT. I don't know how I didn't catch that on my first time through.

[WhiteWalder]

After she got her army of Unsullied, then turned North instead of taking what she could to Pentos.

[David C. Hunter]

Oh goodness, um...when she got Drogo to kill the Lamb people for her own greedy misplaced agenda.

I like how on the show she is becoming just as irritating as her book version.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Oh goodness, um...when she got Drogo to kill the Lamb people for her own greedy misplaced agenda.

The Lamb People are allied with her now so I guess there were no hard feelings.

[eyeheartsansa]

Dear Everyone:

I got to the part in Dance with Dragons where Dany has the wineseller and his daughter tortured. That was pretty bullshit, and obviously a petty act of desperation. HOWEVER, the following scene where she comforts Messandi somewhat made up for it. SOMEWHAT. I don't know how I didn't catch that on my first time through.

Oh wow, I don't' remember this at all... which chapter is this?

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Oh wow, I don't' remember this at all... which chapter is this?

The beginning of the Harpy's attacks. Two unsullied drank at his shop and were soon murdered. The Shavepat recommends Dany "question them sharply". She dithers, agrees, and then feels bad about it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dear Everyone:

I got to the part in Dance with Dragons where Dany has the wineseller and his daughter tortured. That was pretty bullshit, and obviously a petty act of desperation. HOWEVER, the following scene where she comforts Messandi somewhat made up for it. SOMEWHAT. I don't know how I didn't catch that on my first time through.

I find the torture — which it's implied becomes a repeated thing that she condones — inexcusable. Period. You know who else tortures people for information about an insurgency, knowing full well that they probably don't know anything? The Tickler.

I like how on the show she is becoming just as irritating as her book version.

I know this isn't the place for TV talk, but oh my goodness yes. Clarke plays a great spoiled brat.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

I find the torture — which it's implied becomes a repeated thing that she condones — inexcusable. Period. You know who else tortures people for information about an insurgency, knowing full well that they probably don't know anything? The Tickler.

Who else does she order to be tortured?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Who else does she order to be tortured?

There's mention after another attack, I can't remember what chapter, that the people they caught were questioned sharply (or whatever euphemism for torture they use) but they either didn't give up any names or the names they gave up led nowhere. Dany gets all frustrated again and says something like, of course they led nowhere. Implication being that torture is becoming systemic and she's allowing it to happen.

[Lord Damian]

When she actually seemed to enjoy being the concubine of a monster and his barbarian horde, Visery's death, the wine seller's daugthers though, was the the glimps of what she would become Purhaps though, when she refuses time and time again to listed to Jorah and Barristan when they try and tell her about the Starks and that they are not dogs. At this point, every time, she would snap and cut them off. She may yet evolve but I cannot stand her and do not find her heroic and fear her wrath on the North people if she gets to Westeros.

[eyeheartsansa]

I know this isn't the place for TV talk, but oh my goodness yes. Clarke plays a great spoiled brat.

I won't go as far as 'spoiled brat,' but she is walking a fine line between 'regal' and 'shrill...' leaning towards the shrill side.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

There's mention after another attack, I can't remember what chapter, that the people they caught were questioned sharply (or whatever euphemism for torture they use) but they either didn't give up any names or the names they gave up led nowhere. Dany gets all frustrated again and says something like, of course they led nowhere. Implication being that torture is becoming systemic and she's allowing it to happen.

Are we sure they were questioned sharply or just questioned? Questioning them seems logical. "Sharp questioning" seems at least a somewhat standard method of interrogation for the times.

The Tickler killed all of his victims and got his jollies off it, so I think the comparison is hyperbolic.

I believe Dany questioned the wine seller's daughter sharply b/c her men died right after drinking at his tavern, and while he denied knowing anything, he was her best lead at the time. One of the men killed at his shop was her handmaid's unsullied brother, so she was personally 'touched' by the crime.

Not very nice to be sure.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I won't go as far as 'spoiled brat,' but she is walking a fine line between 'regal' and 'shrill...' leaning towards the shrill side.

When she's asking someone for a huge favor — namely a bunch of ships — and stomps her foot like a petulant child and says, "I'm the blood of the dragon, give me the ships! I want my ships! Give them to me!" I consider that acting like a spoiled brat. Semantics?

Are we sure they were questioned sharply or just questioned? Questioning them seems logical. "Sharp questioning" seems at least a somewhat standard method of interrogation for the times.

The Tickler killed all of his victims and got his jollies off it, so I think the comparison is hyperbolic.

I believe Dany questioned the wine seller's daughter sharply b/c her men died right after drinking at his tavern, and while he denied knowing anything, he was her best lead at the time. One of the men killed at his shop was her handmaid's unsullied brother, so she was personally 'touched' by the crime.

Not very nice to be sure.

"Sharp questioning" seems to be the buzzword equivalent of "robust interrogation," which implies torture.

And OK, maybe the Tickler comparison is hyperbolic. She still condones torture out of spite. Nothing heroic or admirable about that and frankly it disgusts me when people defend it.

[BabyMeraxes]

Are we sure they were questioned sharply or just questioned? Questioning them seems logical. "Sharp questioning" seems at least a somewhat standard method of interrogation for the times.

The Tickler killed all of his victims and got his jollies off it, so I think the comparison is hyperbolic.

I believe Dany questioned the wine seller's daughter sharply b/c her men died right after drinking at his tavern, and while he denied knowing anything, he was her best lead at the time. One of the men killed at his shop was her handmaid's unsullied brother, so she was personally 'touched' by the crime.

Not very nice to be sure.

She talks about how they probably don't know anything, and originally asks for them to be questioned sweetly. But, after she get's frustrated, she's like, "Fuck it." The nastiness of it, allowing the daughters to be tortured as the dad watched, was pretty gross. I don't think Dany is the Tickler, but I was not happy about that. But, the kindess she shows Messandi, is there, I think, to remind us that Dany's got a loving default. Emilia Clarke's journey in Qarth, while fun to watch, has been shrill to say the least, but I think a good portion of that is the writing. Every other line out of her mouth is a tantrum. Hopefully the HotU makes up for it.

Eyeheartsansa: Dragons, Daenerys II

[QuaitheTheShadow]

"Sharp questioning" seems to be the buzzword equivalent of "robust interrogation," which implies torture. And OK, maybe the Tickler comparison is hyperbolic. She still condones torture out of spite. Nothing heroic or admirable about that and frankly it disgusts me when people defend it.

They were "enhanced interrogation techniques." Not torture. :D

I'm not defending it, so much as rationalizing why it was done, and arguing that Dany doesn't condone doing it to anyone she dislikes. This was a special case.

She talks about how they probably don't know anything, and originally asks for them to be questioned sweetly. But, after she get's frustrated, she's like, "Fuck it." The nastiness of it, allowing the daughters to be tortured as the dad watched, was pretty gross.

Oh yes, I agree. I think Dany did it because she was angry and powerless - the 'fuck it' was her powerlessness.

Emilia Clarke's journey in Qarth, while fun to watch, has been shrill to say the least, but I think a good portion of that is the writing. Every other line out of her mouth is a tantrum.

I like this because it gives her more room to develop as a character. The spice merchant taught her a lesson about her 'real' position in Quarth. Each of her tantrums highlights her immaturity and current powerlessness. She's learning, slowly. In the last episode the Queen of Dragons begs for help. She begs!

[BabyMeraxes]

I like this because it gives her more room to develop as a character. The spice merchant taught her a lesson about her 'real' position in Quarth. Each of her tantrums highlights her immaturity and current powerlessness. She's learning, slowly. In the last episode the Queen of Dragons begs for help. She begs!

I hope, hope, hope this means they'll develop her character. The last thing we need is more fuel on the anti-Dany fire. And I totally think Clarke is capable of playing a Dany who straddles the line between ferocity and empathy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They were "enhanced interrogation techniques." Not torture. :D

I'm sorry, but that's bull. Waterboarding is also considered an "enhanced interrogation technique." It's torture. They call it "enhanced interrogation techniques" so they don't have to own up to using torture and what that implies. Calling shit a rose doesn't improve the smell.

I hope, hope, hope this means they'll develop her character. The last thing we need is more fuel on the anti-Dany fire. And I totally think Clarke is capable of playing a Dany who straddles the line between ferocity and empathy.

I think Clarke overacts pretty ridiculously. But she's good at getting Dany's bratty shrillness down, so I guess I'll keep her. :P The anticlimactic stuff isn't doing her any favors, though. She gave the gung-ho "our enemies will die screaming!" speech at the end of last season ... only to be stuck in a desert without food or water or anything at the start of this one. Sigh.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

I'm sorry, but that's bull. Waterboarding is also considered an "enhanced interrogation technique." It's torture. They call it "enhanced interrogation techniques" so they don't have to own up to using torture and what that implies. Calling shit a rose doesn't improve the smell.

Large smiley face = sarcasm / joke.

We need a sarcasm font to prevent such misunderstandings. . .helvetica maybe?