When did Daenerys Targaryen become your least favourite character?

[James Arryn]

I think hombay is suggesting that the Green Grace is the obvious harpy, which many seem to think.

One problem I have with criticizing Dany for failing to see what's obvious to us is that, like Ned, she needs to trust someone native to the region if she doesn't want to be an exercise in strategic paralysis. (Which, I guess, she is anyways.)

And there are valid arguments why each and every one of the options would be bad.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

green grace?

The Harpy.

[greywindsrage]

What we saw in AGOT was Dany losing her innocence. In ACOK we see Dany struggling to build and army. In ASOS we see Dany as a conquerer. In ADWD we see Dany in a postion where we havent seen her and for which she is not prepared. I believe Martin wants to show the readers that despite how easy it was for her to become a ruler it is a totally different game when she has to deal with the every day life of what comes with being a ruler. She is young and has no true experience of what it takes and we suffer along with her. I believe that we needed to see Dany discover that she cannot please everyone no matter how hard she tries. She forgot that the key to her power was her Dragons and by locking them away she was weakening herself. This why Martin presents the confrontation with Drogon because he must have felt rejected when she chose to lock her children up. I honestly believe that Martin wants us to be witnesses to the characters follies and not just their triumphs. Even Kings and Queens make mistakes. Just look at the Late Robert Baratheon.

[Kuekuatseu]

When she conquered Mereen and the other slaver cities before that..

I'm glad she escaped with Drogon.

[Kung Fu Kiddo]

In ACoK. It got to the point where I dreaded reading her chapters (only slightly remedied in ADwD). There just really wasn't much going on and didn't really care for her tomfoolery in Qarth. She wasn't interacting with anyone interesting and since she bothers me as a person, that didn't help. And the whole, "I am the blood of the dragon" crap...ugh, no. Never should have started.

Her whole scheme with Slaver's Bay, I just...don't understand the logic behind it. I mean, I understand *why* she did what she did to Astapor, I just think it was not well thought out at all and her resulting actions even less well thought out. Chick never thinks of the consequences, man.

Her extremely entitled character and sense of "justice" (like others have said, I really, really started to dislike her after the wineseller's daughters scenario) just bother me to no end. The only person who can be halfway honest with her about her family is Barristan and even then she invokes Viserys with her reactions.

She doesn't understand the game of thrones despite what she believes, and her little learning experiement in Slaver's Bay is just terrible.

I really, really do not like Daenerys as you can tell. She is my least favorite POV character.

[aimlessgun]

Dany seems to be a victim of reader expectation.

People seem to expect her to be super competent and super awesome, for reasons I can't ascertain, and then crucify her for not living up to it. People dislike Cersei for her screwups, sure, but they dislike her within the story, as opposed to taking this dislike outside the story and making it criticism of George's writing all the time.

And then everyone expects her to get back to Westeros posthaste, and lambasts everything she does to delay that, as if anything that doesn't happen in Westeros is by definition totally uninteresting and not important to the story.

I think both of these expectations are ridiculous. I'm interested in her as a very flawed character, and I'm interested in the story of Essos. Fuck returning to Westeros, I hope she keeps on doing a mix of dumb and awesome shit in Essos all the way until book 7. I'm extremely glad that instead of quickly spiriting her away to Westeros and keeping the world small, GRRM is expanding the scope of things and bringing more Westorosi over to Essos.

[Howling Mad]

When did Daenerys Targaryen become your least favourite character?

After reading these forums and learning that "dude my whole understanding of ASOIAF was seriously F'ed up."

[peterbound]

Dany seems to be a victim of reader expectation.

People seem to expect her to be super competent and super awesome, for reasons I can't ascertain, and then crucify her for not living up to it. People dislike Cersei for her screwups, sure, but they dislike her within the story, as opposed to taking this dislike outside the story and making it criticism of George's writing all the time.

And then everyone expects her to get back to Westeros posthaste, and lambasts everything she does to delay that, as if anything that doesn't happen in Westeros is by definition totally uninteresting and not important to the story.

I think both of these expectations are ridiculous. I'm interested in her as a very flawed character, and I'm interested in the story of Essos. Fuck returning to Westeros, I hope she keeps on doing a mix of dumb and awesome shit in Essos all the way until book 7. I'm extremely glad that instead of quickly spiriting her away to Westeros and keeping the world small, GRRM is expanding the scope of things and bringing more Westorosi over to Essos.

Hey, I like the fact that she makes mistakes, she's young and dumb. I get it, but the bitch never seems to learn from the fucking things. She is /constantly/ fucking up. It amazes me how fucking dense she is.

And she has three dragons. I'm not sure she deserves them.

Is she really the person that would be best for Westeros? I don't think so. I keep thinking that GRRM is putting her through all this shit to make her a well rounded leader, but as i stated above, she doesn't seem to be growing at all.

[Kung Fu Kiddo]

Dany seems to be a victim of reader expectation.

People seem to expect her to be super competent and super awesome, for reasons I can't ascertain, and then crucify her for not living up to it. People dislike Cersei for her screwups, sure, but they dislike her within the story, as opposed to taking this dislike outside the story and making it criticism of George's writing all the time.

See, for me personally, it's not that I expect Dany to be extremely competent in everything that she does, it's that I dislike her justifications for everything that she does, and her being rather incompetent only adds to that.

With Cersei, her justifications and incompetence only make her character more interesting. Even though I think she's an asshole, I still like her character. It's the exact opposite with Dany. I always have a hard time articulating why, but her whole, "save the slaves" crusade is just so bad and problematic that it makes it hard for me to find many redeeming qualities in her.

EDIT: Also, she never really seems to learn from her bastard child that is Slaver's Bay after her arrival. Only when her own person is threatened by an attack by Yunkai and Co. in ADwD does she really kick into gear and start (begrudgingly) making compromises. But they're never good enough. Yes, she says that she is worried about her freedmen, and I believe it, but she probably should have thought about that before she randomly decided one day to completely fuck up Slaver's Bay. I get it, she's young and doesn't always have the best counsel, but that doesn't mean I can't hold these decisions and these consequences against her, since she so fervently supported them and chooses who counsels her. She put herself in this terrible predicament because she needed to help all the slaves. Well, now they're probably worse off so....

She expects to go into this society just because and change its entire culture. I just don't understand how she thought that was a good idea that would actually be successful....

[aimlessgun]

I think it's a fascinating "what if" kind of situation, someone coming in from the outside with overwhelming coercive military power (Unsullied and Dragons) and trying to change a culture (inarguably for the better as far as many of the end goals are concerned). I think it's more interesting for her to gloriously fuck up all of Essos trying to eradicate slavery in fire and blood than it is for her to leave them to their fate and sail back to Westeros. It's a kind of story I like, but I'm personally a big fan of "what ifs".

And it's something I can definitely sympathize with. Havn't you ever been in situations where you absolutely know that you're right and others are wrong, and you wouldn't mind having that coercive power to try and see if you can make them see things the right way? It's totally arrogant, probably immoral, and likely doomed to failure, but fuck them, they're so goddamn wrong about this that I want to do it anyways.

As for whether she never learns from her mistakes, I've only done one readthrough of DWD so I can't really make an informed argument about that. All I can say is that was not an impression I came away with at the end of the book. I'll look for it next time I go through.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

She isn't my least favourite character as such. She became my least favourite character to read as soon as she hit Meereen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And it's something I can definitely sympathize with. Havn't you ever been in situations where you absolutely know that you're right and others are wrong, and you wouldn't mind having that coercive power to try and see if you can make them see things the right way?

Yes I have — for example, when people on here make excuses for Dany's failure to learn from her mistakes and insist that she's going to save the world.

[aimlessgun]

Yes I have — for example, when people on here make excuses for Dany's failure to learn from her mistakes and insist that she's going to save the world.

That's actually the reason a lot of people are angry at her for staying in Mereen though: they expect her to come back to Westeros with her dragons, fight the Others and save the world (and maybe have some great sex with Jon Snow or something).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's actually the reason a lot of people are angry at her for staying in Mereen though: they expect her to come back to Westeros with her dragons, fight the Others and save the world.

I wouldn't mind it if she stayed in Meereen if there was evidence that she'd actually demonstrated that she'd learned something while she was there. And I actually don't expect her to "save the world." Not everyone buys into the "savior Dany" thing.

ETA: Also, the idea of Jon and Dany makes me want to hurl.

[Kung Fu Kiddo]

And it's something I can definitely sympathize with. Havn't you ever been in situations where you absolutely know that you're right and others are wrong, and you wouldn't mind having that coercive power to try and see if you can make them see things the right way? It's totally arrogant, probably immoral, and likely doomed to failure, but fuck them, they're so goddamn wrong about this that I want to do it anyways.

Yes I have — for example, when people on here make excuses for Dany's failure to learn from her mistakes and insist that she's going to save the world.

^^That. :P

[PatrickStormborn]

In the TV series - when she refused to show the Thirteen the dragons. What was she thinking?

It really surprises me that so many people seem to have missed the point with this... She does not know how to feed her dragons. They're tiny, starving babies. Showing them to the Thirteen would reveal just how weak she actually was, and would put them in danger of being stolen.

I think it's a fascinating "what if" kind of situation, someone coming in from the outside with overwhelming coercive military power (Unsullied and Dragons) and trying to change a culture (inarguably for the better as far as many of the end goals are concerned). I think it's more interesting for her to gloriously fuck up all of Essos trying to eradicate slavery in fire and blood than it is for her to leave them to their fate and sail back to Westeros. It's a kind of story I like, but I'm personally a big fan of "what ifs".

And it's something I can definitely sympathize with. Havn't you ever been in situations where you absolutely know that you're right and others are wrong, and you wouldn't mind having that coercive power to try and see if you can make them see things the right way? It's totally arrogant, probably immoral, and likely doomed to failure, but fuck them, they're so goddamn wrong about this that I want to do it anyways.

As for whether she never learns from her mistakes, I've only done one readthrough of DWD so I can't really make an informed argument about that. All I can say is that was not an impression I came away with at the end of the book. I'll look for it next time I go through.

I don't think some posters on this forum actually realise why GRRM has Dany in Essos in the first place. As far as I can tell, there are two reasons:

1. So she can be a "conqueror", rather than a usurper.

2. So that she can save two continents -- not just one.

The only character in the series who could actually be a hero is Daenerys. There is no way that Jon Snow, for example, would be able to save the Dothraki from the Long Night. Daenerys could do this, and she could also bring to Westeros a huge army to fight against the Others.

Yes I have — for example, when people on here make excuses for Dany's failure to learn from her mistakes and insist that she's going to save the world.

Failure to learn from her mistakes? Well, that looks like what she was doing at the end of ADWD.

And I'm sorry, but Dany is in a position to save the world which no other character comes close to. So believing she's the best candidate does not make me "wrong".

Anyway, it must be added that heroes =/= good people. Even if Dany arrives in Westeros and burns King's Landing to the ground, she would still be a hero if she defeated the Others and saved humanity (although, I have to say, there isn't much of a reason to save the humans of Westeros -- which Jon in particular has learned).

[Ghost714]

Try Never. Not by a longshot.

[Batman]

A Clash of Kings, although Ramsay Snow is a fairly close second with Gregor Clegane just falling to third

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I think somebody on here posted that her biggest crime is being boring. I'd agree with that. As it is, I hate reading her chapters, but once it picks up again I think it'll be interesting. She seems to be rediscovering who she wants to be, and that should make her chapters more enjoyable.

[Batman]

The only character in the series who could actually be a hero is Daenerys. There is no way that Jon Snow, for example, would be able to save the Dothraki from the Long Night. Daenerys could do this, and she could also bring to Westeros a huge army to fight against the Others.

Jon Snow is the only character I would really call a hero. Dany is by no means selfish but she is fighting for her own power. She wants to be queen, she sees it as her right. Jon turned down the chance to be lord of Winterfell and proved that he is truly Ned's son by choosing honor and loyalty over personal power (I dont care who Jon's parents actually are, Ned is his father). Jon is fighting to protect the realm, Dany fights for herself and her family name, she is like a less cruel version of Tywin Lannister.