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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa V

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About Tyrion: I think she was happy no longer to have to be with Tyrion, but not have him killed as others said. She was not ungrateful to him, but I think she wondered if she wasn’t better off with him than LF cause she was afraid of the unkonw…

And now about LF: when sansa wonders if she has escaped the Lannisters only to end up in a worse place reminded me of the “out of the frying pan & into the fire” phrase.

Yes, this was my thought as well. On some level, Sansa recognises that while she was not happy in her marriage to Tyrion, he never actually harmed her and she does not wish him ill. She is relieved that she never has to sleep with him, but then she has some second thoughts about where she actually ended up. Clever girl. Hopefully this means that should Sansa and Tyrion meet up again, she may be able to be more open to at least ally herself with him, or to hear him out instead of just putting up her armour to fend off Lannister taint. I honestly think that Sansa and Tyrion could make a formidable team together; not as lovers mind you, but as "colleagues" or partners in crime. Both Tyrion and Sansa have their heart mainly in the right place, unlike Littlefinger, Varys or even the QoT, who are far more self serving.

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I'd been her.

Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped his cloak of protection around her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it. "The gods killed Joffrey. He choked on his pigeon pie."

This is quite interesting actually, it's like Tyrion is digging his heels in with regards to the spectacle wedding he more and more realises Tywin lured him into accepting. After the marriage, we see Tyrion slowly realising that he's tripped up and deluded himself in that Sansa will never become Tysha 2.0, she will never love him and they will never be happy in one another, but here he still chooses to make a stand for her, maybe in an odd way trying to be a better man? Or to try and make it up to her, what he could not give her?

I seem to remember he does think of her once or twice in ADWD as well, wondering what became of her, but no real thoughts of bitterness, accusation or regret.

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To me, Joffrey's testimony regarding Sansa was one of his shining hours. He believes in his heart that she deserted him, is bitter about it, thinks she probably was involved in the capital crime for which he is being tried; but Tyrion still refuses to incriminate Sansa because he believes in the duty of protection he owes her as her husband.

I just hope that Tyrion eventually learns that Sansa was innocent in the planning of Joffrey's death, an unwitting accomplice to it.

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This is very interesting Rapsie. I would tend to think that she embodies both the Tully and Stark values, but you're very right that she may be more Stark-ish than LF realises. I do think she will be a lot more rebellious than he expects, and his whole "dutiful daughter" plan might crash and burn.

Actually, if all Littlefinger had wanted to do was turn Sansa into his fantasy daughter out of Catelyn, he might have had a better chance of eventually totally controlling her. Sansa definitely missed her father, and would have welcomed a helpful father-figure. I think that's why Littlefinger presents himself as her new foster-father (and to some extent he does believe it himself, which is one reason Sansa trusts him initially after she's just seen him slaughter her poor "Florian" - the other reason being that she has nowhere else to go at the moment, without being subject to Cersei's vengeance).

The problem is, as we and Sansa will learn in future chapters, is that Littlefinger's motivations are far more complex concerning Sansa; he does not see her just as the daughter he and Catelyn should have had. I feel very bad for Sansa as she steps into that boat; she had been hoping and hiding and enduring a hellish existence for months waiting for the escape plan to free her, and it's merely taking her from one cage to another, one set of exploitative gaolers to a jailer whose purposes for Sansa are foul as well as fair.

But there is hope, and I do think that Littlefinger will eventually find, as you point out, Brashcandy, that LF thinks he's caught a plump juicy trout when he's really reeled in a she-wolf. She may seem tame for now, but Sansa is daughter and sister to wolves; and, as I never get tired of saying --- The North Remembers!

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Actually one thing that I did find strange was Sansa's crying, or not that so much as her lack of coldness.

When she saw that young knight being killed back at the Hand's tourney, she is very cold (whilst Jeyne' bursts into tears). Whre as in this chapter she is quite a bit more emotional.

I wonder if it's just context though: could she calmly watch someone die if she wasn't otherwise in a nervous state?

I think when you're under a lot of stress, that emotions get tangled up like that. I know that many times I've laughed when I wanted to cry, so I can understand why she did that.

I think he is completly oblivious of her entire personality

The man definitely doesn't know every facet of it, thank goodness! I hope Sansa has the sense to stay wary of Petyr! She's definitely not in a good position right now. :unsure:

Without jumping ahead to the Vale chapters, I would have to say that Martin seems to setting Lothor up as a kind of Sandor-substitute/surrogate. When he was knighted for his services during the Blackwater and given land and keeps, it shed light on how someone could gain favour from military service. In this chapter and later on we see him as a very loyal servant (just like Sandor was), doing all his lord commands.

There was also that bit in ASOS when Sansa was headed for her wedding, when one of the Kettleblacks (Osmund) tried to comfort her as well, which in a way struck me as odd:

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei’s handmaid caught her before she’d gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, “Do as you’re told, sweetling, it won’t be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren’t they?”

And now about LF: when sansa wonders if she has escaped the Lannisters only to end up in a worse place reminded me of the “out of the frying pan & into the fire” phrase. & it’s amazingly sick to see how since the first moment basically since they meet on the ship, LF is already trying to get the point over to sansa that she can only count on him (killing dontos and dismissing the honor his acts had since he “sold her” (this reminds me of the “no one will ever love you for your claim part” since though dontos said this to her, he still did save her for the money, not only to be her florian & resuce her) and also by saying that she is now being hunted for, so she better stay with him or she’ll end up death.). Yet, if he had loved Cat as much as he’s led himself believe, why then not care about both of cat’s children, not just the one that happens to look like a better version of his long lost love? So, petyr only wants sansa cause she represents what he was unable to gain back in his youth, so being a stubborn man, he must think it’s better to have a similar version of the woman he wanted to none at all…

I agree that Petyr views Sansa as something like a twisted Cat substitute. (And I don't think he really loved Cat either, rather that he was in love with the idea of her and the things that came with her, but then again, it's just my opinion). When you look back to the first book, LF started in with Sansa then, so one wonders just how long (years?) he's been hatching this little plot of his . Remember the Hand's Tourney:

When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. “You must be one of her daughters,” he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. “You have the Tully look.”

“I’m Sansa Stark,” she said, ill at ease. The man wore a heavy cloak with a fur collar, fastened with a silver mockingbird, and he had the effortless manner of a high lord, but she did not know him. “I have not had the honor, my lord.”

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. “Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king’s small council.”

“Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. “You have her hair.” His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

Ugh. :stillsick:

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This is quite interesting actually, it's like Tyrion is digging his heels in with regards to the spectacle wedding he more and more realises Tywin lured him into accepting. After the marriage, we see Tyrion slowly realising that he's tripped up and deluded himself in that Sansa will never become Tysha 2.0, she will never love him and they will never be happy in one another, but here he still chooses to make a stand for her, maybe in an odd way trying to be a better man? Or to try and make it up to her, what he could not give her? I seem to remember he does think of her once or twice in ADWD as well, wondering what became of her, but no real thoughts of bitterness, accusation or regret.

To me, Tyrion's testimony regarding Sansa was one of his shining hours. He believes in his heart that she deserted him, is bitter about it, thinks she probably was involved in the capital crime for which he is being tried; but Tyrion still refuses to incriminate Sansa because he believes in the duty of protection he owes her as her husband. I just hope that Tyrion eventually learns that Sansa was innocent in the planning of Joffrey's death, an unwitting accomplice to it.

My feelings here on Tyrion are mixed, tbh, and this leads me to want to play a bit of devil's advocate :)

Sure, it's nice that he thinks he was her husband and has some duty to protect her, but he also observed that trying to act like he had no part in the murder and that it was all Sansa's doing wouldn't be believable to anyone else. So really, not accusing her is the smart thing to do. I was also troubled by him naming her as a witness. Yes, the manhunt was already on for her, but did Tyrion really want them to find Sansa and bring her back just so she could get him off the hook? What about what would happen to her?

What this whole debacle made clear is that Tyrion had absolutely no friends of influence in KL, whilst Sansa of all people, pawn and prisoner, did! All Tyrion can call upon is a former sellsword to help him out and when Bronn refuses, his cause is nearly lost.

@ Lyanna - I can't find the quote but I think he does remember her with some bitterness, not to mention that he thinks of Tysha as his one true wife now, the one who was always faithful to him. I don't imagine Sansa will look very pleasing in comparison when he returns to Westeros, and especially if he thinks that she has been in cahoots with Littlefinger all this time.

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@ Lyanna - I can't find the quote but I think he does remember her with some bitterness, not to mention that he thinks of Tysha as his one true wife now, the one who was always faithful to him. I don't imagine Sansa will look very pleasing in comparison when he returns to Westeros, and especially if he thinks that she has been in cahoots with Littlefinger all this time.

@ brashcandy and Lyanna -- I'm not sure but was this the passage you were thinking of from ADWD? :

“It was sweet,” lied Tyrion, “but I am married. She was with me at the feast, you may remember her. Lady Sansa.”

“Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …”

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

“A lovely girl,” said Tyrion, “and we were joined beneath the eyes of gods and men. It may be that she is lost to me, but until I know that for a certainty I must be true to her.”

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Tyrion remembers Sansa as false but also thinks he misses the wife he hardly knew, which may have been a reference to her or Tysha.

@ BrashCandy

That's an excellent point about Tyrion having no support or alliances. Despite the position she was in, Sansa gained the loyalty and support of Sandor Clegane and Ser Dontos.

Also This is the difference between her situation with the Lannisters and her situation with LF: at court she was shunned and completely at the Lannisters mercy. Everyone was afraid of them, so could not befriend her ( with two exceptions). With LF she is hidden, but not a prisoner or pariah. She is making friends and people are more likely to stand in her corner. She is actually in a much safer position despite being with LF.

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As we will not be covering any more Tyrion chapters during the re-read, I thought it would be useful to still include the thoughts he has on her in his chapter directly following the Purple wedding where he is imprisoned awaiting trial for Joffrey's murder.

One thing I would add is that in the last Tyrion chapter that was part of the re-read, he deliberately did pour out the remains of the 'purple' wine in the giant wine cup, "after a moment of deliberation". I think the impression given is that Tyrion right away suspected Sansa and decided to destroy possible evidence. Later, during the trial, Tyrion himself wonders why he poured the wine on the floor, so it may have been a reaction by instinct.

Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well what did you expect dwarf?

Tyrion showing his small side here; he knew very well what those vows did mean to her and his expectations were ridiculous.

And yet ... where would Sansa have gotten poison? He could not believe the girl had acted alone in this. Do I really want to find her? Would the judges believe that Tyrion's child bride had poisoned a king without her husband's knowledge? I wouldn't. Cersei would insist that they had done the deed together.

I've always wondered how it was possible that people believed en masse that Tyrion and Sansa would work together, allthough it was general knowledge that she was forced into the marriage very much against her will.

Ser Addam has men hunting for your wife. Varys has offered a hundred stags for word of her whereabouts, and a hundred dragons for the girl herself. If the girl can be found she will be found, and I shall bring her to you

I wonder if "the girl herself" means a living Sansa? Cersei does seem to expect she'll get her hands on a living Sansa, to torture. It would complicate matters for guys like Shadrich, unless he is willing to settle for "word of her whereabouts".

I would have, if I'd been her. Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped his cloak of protection around her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it.

This time, Tyrion's bigger side is at the foreground as he refuses to accuse Sansa.

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Tyrion remembers Sansa as false but also thinks he misses the wife he hardly knew, which may have been a reference to her or Tysha.

I'm glad you brought this point up. Here is the full line from ADWD:

"What do you miss, Halfman?”

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

It seems to have been deliberately left open which wife he is referring to.

That's an excellent point about Tyrion having no support or alliances. Despite the position she was in, Sansa gained the loyalty and support of Sandor Clegane and Ser Dontos.

Tyrion did have a couple of loyal allies himself though; Bronn (that he didn't want to fight Gregor doesn't disqualify him IMO) and Pod.

Also This is the difference between her situation with the Lannisters and her situation with LF: at court she was shunned and completely at the Lannisters mercy. Everyone was afraid of them, so could not befriend her ( with two exceptions). With LF she is hidden, but not a prisoner or pariah. She is making friends and people are more likely to stand in her corner. She is actually in a much safer position despite being with LF.

I agree, in the Vale "Alayne" actually seems to be rather well-liked and she can interact freely with others. Sure, she has to watch her tongue still, but the situation is not the same as being in an utterly hostile environment like King's Landing in general and the Red Keep in particular.

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Passages from ADWD that I think may be relevant for Tyrion's feelings about Sansa:

The washerwoman gave him one last glance, picked up her basket, and walked away. I cannot seem to hold a wife for very long, Tyrion reflected.

Thinking of both Tysha (2 weeks, was it?) and Sansa (the fresh "loss"), here.

The girl took that disappointment too well for his liking. “If m’lord would prefer a boy, I can have one waiting in his bed.”

M’lord would prefer his wife. M’lord would prefer a girl named Tysha.

Tyrion is really bitter and very unpleasant in this chapter.

“I have no wish to die, I promise you. I have …” His voice trailed off into uncertainty. What do I have? A life to live? Work to do? Children to raise, lands to rule, a woman to love?

One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry. “What did you do to her?” Duck asked. “I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them.”

The last line seems a (bitter) reference to Sansa and their wedding ceremony, I think. It's certainly not about Tysha or Shae, and not just a random idle thought either IMO.

Penny would follow, he knew. Sometimes he envied the girl all her pretty little dreams. She reminded him of Sansa Stark, the child bride he had wed and lost. Despite the horrors Penny had suffered, she remained somehow trusting. She should know better. She is older than Sansa. And she’s a dwarf. She acts as if she has forgotten that, as if she were highborn and fair to look upon, instead of a slave in a grotesquerie.

The comparison between Penny and Sansa is not a bad one, allthough Sansa was not near as trusting as Tyrion used to think she was.

In addition, there is the part quoted earlier by the Queen of Winter, where Sansa is somehow viewed as "false" by Tyrion (never mind that he knew very well she mas forced to say those vows at swordpoint). Ironically, Tyrion uses his marriage to Sansa to avoid sex, much like Sansa seems to do to cool down plans about Harry the Heir.

All in all, I think Tyrion feels bitter about losing Sansa, even though their marriage was a total sham he still may not have broken with the idea completely. The bitterness that still seems to creep in his thoughts when thinking about her may indicate that.

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@Wouter - I agree with your final analysis about Tyrion's feelings concerning Sansa. On the one hand, he appears fairly reasonable in acknowledging why the marriage failed, but in ADWD he definitely expressed a more bitter side that was resentful of the faithless women he has known. My theory has always been that if Tyrion does not find Tysha, that he will come back to Westeros with an aim to finding Sansa and continuing the marriage to her. I just don't see him being willing to lose Tysha and Sansa both.

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Anyone else notice the parallel that when Tyrion was 13 years old he was wed to Tysha, and when Sansa is 13 years old, she's married to Tyrion?

That's true :) The only difference is that Tyrion was able to squeeze some joy out of his marriage before it all blew up in his face. He's known the leisure and pleasure of spending all day in bed kissing someone, and finding silly things to fawn over like a similarity in names. All Sansa got was the bulbous purple head and awkward silence.

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My theory has always been that if Tyrion does not find Tysha, that he will come back to Westeros with an aim to finding Sansa and continuing the marriage to her. I just don't see him being willing to lose Tysha and Sansa both.

Hmmmm. Not sure if I can see him wanting to continue the marriage to Sansa, especially when he knows she loathes being married to him. I do wonder though, what would happen if he found Tysha and finds that perhaps time hasn't been kind to her, or if somehow she's as disfigured as he is. (But that's another topic, I guess).

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The comparison between Penny and Sansa is not a bad one, allthough Sansa was not near as trusting as Tyrion used to think she was.

This is one of the reasons I hope against hope that Penny will stick around for TWOW as I think she is important to Tyrion's character development. We see here how bitter he is that he is left on his own, but he has not really been reaching out to anyone or making a lot of friends. Granted, part of that has been because he has been in a position of power, where it's hard to gain new real friends, but even before that, he's not really bothered since apart from Jamie, he's paid for anything he needs and often been above anyone else in status.

Good point as well about Sansa not being as trusting as Penny, and it seems Tyrion sort of realises this although of course he doesn't know the full extent of what Sansa hid to him.

In addition, there is the part quoted earlier by the Queen of Winter, where Sansa is somehow viewed as "false" by Tyrion (never mind that he knew very well she mas forced to say those vows at swordpoint). Ironically, Tyrion uses his marriage to Sansa to avoid sex, much like Sansa seems to do to cool down plans about Harry the Heir.

Yup, it seems both of them are re-evaluating their marriage somewhat when being apart (Sansa in this chapter is not sure she's actually in a better place after all than with Tyrion). Even if Tyrion is bitter and often lashes out, especially in his darker moments; in his good moments, he does recognise that it's not Sansa's fault. I guess he needs to decide what type of person he wants to be. Angry, bitter and pushing the blame on others, or someone who deals with his shit.

All in all, I think Tyrion feels bitter about losing Sansa, even though their marriage was a total sham he still may not have broken with the idea completely. The bitterness that still seems to creep in his thoughts when thinking about her may indicate that.

I think he blames her in his darker moment as a pure mechanism to push blame away from himself. It's not a nice thing to do, and hopefully he'll come around to realising that.

Hmmmm. Not sure if I can see him wanting to continue the marriage to Sansa, especially when he knows she loathes being married to him. I do wonder though, what would happen if he found Tysha and finds that perhaps time hasn't been kind to her, or if somehow she's as disfigured as he is. (But that's another topic, I guess).

I don't know, it depends on how they get along afterwards. It's fairly certain theirs will never be a love match and I think Sansa will never want to share his bed, but as a pure alliance for power play, it could work. Besides, this is crackpot land, but Tyrion is whoring a lot, yet unlike Robert, we never hear of his bastards. If Tyrion is unable to father children, he might even agree to being the "figurehead father" of whatever children Sansa got if it meant they could continue as a power couple on the face of it. The only thing she needs is a potential father who won't give her silver haired children with purple eyes or something. Since Sansa is mixed Stark/Tully and Tyrion a Lannister, there's already a lot of mixed up looks giving her a larger freedom than adulteress!Cersei to find someone suitable (and I think you know who I have in mind for it too!!)

The Tyrion/Sansa power marriage is one of my favourite crackpot theories actually. :lol:

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Hmmmm. Not sure if I can see him wanting to continue the marriage to Sansa, especially when he knows she loathes being married to him. I do wonder though, what would happen if he found Tysha and finds that perhaps time hasn't been kind to her, or if somehow she's as disfigured as he is. (But that's another topic, I guess).

I cannot imagine Tysha being happy to be found by Tyrion, after what happened between them and Tywin. It also seems impossible for Tyrion to ever find her, unless she would want to find him instead.

I hope Penny, and gaining success as Dany's advisor/ally again, will turn Tyrion away from his present bitterness.

Some parts of his ADWD chapters suggest that Tyrion still desires to get a (loving?) wife and children eventually, though.

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I cannot imagine Tysha being happy to be found by Tyrion, after what happened between them and Tywin. It also seems impossible for Tyrion to ever find her, unless she would want to find him instead.

That's true :) The only difference is that Tyrion was able to squeeze some joy out of his marriage before it all blew up in his face. He's known the leisure and pleasure of spending all day in bed kissing someone, and finding silly things to fawn over like a similarity in names. All Sansa got was the bulbous purple head and awkward silence.

Very true, Wouter and brashcandy!

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I don't know, it depends on how they get along afterwards. It's fairly certain theirs will never be a love match and I think Sansa will never want to share his bed, but as a pure alliance for power play, it could work. Besides, this is crackpot land, but Tyrion is whoring a lot, yet unlike Robert, we never hear of his bastards. If Tyrion is unable to father children, he might even agree to being the "figurehead father" of whatever children Sansa got if it meant they could continue as a power couple on the face of it. The only thing she needs is a potential father who won't give her silver haired children with purple eyes or something. Since Sansa is mixed Stark/Tully and Tyrion a Lannister, there's already a lot of mixed up looks giving her a larger freedom than adulteress!Cersei to find someone suitable (and I think you know who I have in mind for it too!!)

Oh of course you don't need to tell me who you're thinking of Lyanna! :D :rolleyes: I have multiple crackpot theories about where Sansa will end up and one of them is similar to what you're talking about.

The Tyrion/Sansa power marriage is one of my favourite crackpot theories actually. :lol:
Crackpot theories are a lot of fun to speculate about, no? ;) It's one of the reasons why I enjoy this board so much. :)

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I think Sansa's chapter suggests she thinks of him as kind, compared to the other Lannisters, in the same way that a cold sore is better than Herpes. Neither is something you would choose though.

I could see them getting on later, as long as they were no longer married and Sansa disn't find out he covered up for his brother over Bran (if Tyrion had told the truth in the Eyrie both her parents might still be alive) and also is she doesn't find out he was banking on Robb's death to inherit Winterfell. Or promising sellswords large chunks of the North which belonged to her.

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I think Sansa's chapter suggests she thinks of him as kind, compared to the other Lannisters, in the same way that a cold sore is better than Herpes. Neither is something you would choose though.

I could see them getting on later, as long as they were no longer married and Sansa disn't find out he covered up for his brother over Bran (if Tyrion had told the truth in the Eyrie both her parents might still be alive) and also is she doesn't find out he was banking on Robb's death to inherit Winterfell. Or promising sellswords large chunks of the North which belonged to her.

:lol: @ cold sores and herpes

Yes, I agree, the only way I can see Sansa wanting to stay married to him is if she is calling the shots on how it's going to work out, and what Tyrion gets is a home, comfort and a certain amount of respect while Sansa is the real power. I can't see them ever being really friendly with eachother. Tyrion has the right of it in ASOS that the gulf between the Starks and the Lannisters is just too great.

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