Jaime vs. Ser Bold who is the real hero? SPOILER

[Castel]

I even disagree with the twisted and fucked up part. You know what is twisted and fucked up though? Cuckolding the king, killing his children and placing your own children with your brother in the succession, something that would lead to the deaths of all of you, including the innocent children and thoroughly fuck the realm over.

[The King in the South]

What's wrong with Ser Barristan, he seems an honorable man?

Plus, I agree with Apple Martini's first post.

Placing honor over the lives of innocent people is the exact opposite of heroism. A hero is supposed to be someone who is willing to risk anything, even his own life, to help/save others.

[Francis Buck]

Placing honor over the lives of innocent people is the exact opposite of heroism. A hero is supposed to be someone who is willing to risk anything, even his own life, to help/save others.

But does a hero risk the well-being of his own family for the betterment of his enemy? If a man's (or woman's, it doesn't matter) family is at danger, what is the more honorable thing to do? Let the foe live and risk the security of his loved ones? Or kill the foe, no matter his innocence, and thus protect the his own family's innocence (Tommen, Myrcella, etc.).

(This is a question deviating from the purely ASOIAF perspective; I'm asking it from a philosophical point of view...after-all, was Jaime not helping his family by killing Aerys? Was he not helping his family by trying to kill Bran?).

Just food for thought.

[The King in the South]

But does a hero risk the well-being of his own family for the betterment of his enemy? If a man's (or woman's, it doesn't matter) family is at danger, what is the more honorable thing to do? Let the foe live and risk the security of his loved ones? Or kill the foe, no matter his innocence, and thus protect the his own family's innocence (Tommen, Myrcella, etc.).

(This is a question deviating from the purely ASOIAF perspective; I'm asking it from a philosophical point of view...after-all, was Jaime not helping his family by killing Aerys? Was he not helping his family by trying to kill Bran?).

Just food for thought.

I'm actually talking about Barristan mostly here but regarding Jaime I think killing Aerys depends on the context. If you're killing him to save the city, and it just so happens to help your family, I would still say it's heroic, but if you're killing him just to help your family and it just so happens that it saves people I would say it's probably less "heroic" in that regards. So the question here remains as to why exactly Jaime did kill Aerys; which a most fun debate.

Pushing Bran out the window is really really murky. Given that he was attempting the murder of an innocent child to protect innocent childen (and also his relationship) is certainly...interesting. I think again we have to look at context. When I read that scene, I see a pretty careless move by Jaime, one without remorse or concern. Later on he says that he did it for Cersei+the kids, but his entire thought process just seems pretty ehhh. Given that there's no remorse for Bran (hell I believe he says something to the affect of "the kid shouldn't have been snooping around") and Jaime's overall lack of empathy/care for his kids leaves me to think that action wasn't very heroic and rather driven out of lust.

[Queen Cersei I]

He produced one abomination and a couple of nice kids. Lots of people screwed his sister; what's the big deal?

Even more people have screwed his brother, so what's the big deal?

Seriously, if we were prosecuting the Lannister family for promiscuity, Cersei would come in far, far after her brother or dear old dad. The only difference is these books portray Tyrion's desire to pay gorgoeus teen girls to live as sort of fantasy girlfriend Tysha replacements as natural and touching, and his recent decision to terrorize helpless sex slaves as understandable and the result of inner torments; Cersei's choice to manipulate willing men with sex as Pure Evil and something that detracts deeply from her worth as a human being. (The Lannister cloak is threadbare, and so is old used Cersei!)

[Castel]

Even more people have screwed his brother, so what's the big deal?

Seriously, if we were prosecuting the Lannister family for promiscuity, Cersei would come in far, far after her brother or dear old dad. The only difference is these books portray Tyrion's desire to pay gorgoeus teen girls to live as sort of fantasy girlfriend Tysha replacements as natural and touching, and his recent decision to terrorize helpless sex slaves as understandable and the result of inner torments; Cersei's choice to manipulate willing men with sex as Pure Evil and something that detracts deeply from her worth as a human being. (The Lannister cloak is threadbare, and so is old used Cersei!)

I don't agree. Tyrion's need for company seems pathetic, it's shown to be a result of dwarfism and an event in his past that crushed any self-esteem he had. He knows it's wrong and a weakness, he just can't help himself. It's sad really. And how is it portrayed as right? Everything is from Tyrion's perspective in that case, of course he'll have less problem with it, doesn't mean the author is pushing a pro-Tyrion agenda.

Cersei's decision to manipulate men using sex isn't evil as much as pathetic. She's the Queen Regent, she can find a dozen men to do her bidding without sex. But on the one hand she claims that women are held down by society and not allowed to flourish, but when given the chance her own... lack of confidence I guess leads her to enter into relationships with men she had no need of. She can get what she wants through politics but she chooses a path solely designed to feed her own narcissism and insecurity. She can find a dozen cronies she could manipulate without sex but she puts herself at risk with these flings because she can, because she loves herself and loves knowing that others do too. It is a character flaw. Just as much as Tyrion's.

[zalim]

its foolish to compare the too

jaime was an very evil, Kingslayer, oath breaker, incest commiter (if thats a word lol) where Ser Barristan The Bold is honorable and a brave hero.

[Wales338]

Now I don't remember this part exactly and correct me if I'm wrong. But it's not like Jamie HAD to kill the King to protect the city. He had already killed the messangers and he could have just killed the messangers to prevent the orders from being sent. He DECIDED to kill the King becasue he realized the war was lost.

[Mark Sawyer]

Jamie is on a road to redemption...so his Selmy to some degree...the sins of the past will most likely affect both of them in different ways...One can argue that Jaime's past exploits are beyond repair..and he can not be forgiven...and that may be true to some extent...but as his heart warms a little it will be more about forgiving himself than whether or not the kingdom forgives him...Jaime doesnt give a f**k about that anyway...and i personally believe Jaimes decesion to kill Aerys was more about saving his family and city than it was about pleasing Tywin...thats just my personal opinion..and i know it is debatable....Selmy is badass and is doing what he feels is right...so he had a change of heart...at 65 he is reflecting on his life and mistakes and sees the wrongs in his ways....BigFing Deal..so what..he is a beast...love Selmy

[The King in the South]

its foolish to compare the too

jaime was an very evil, Kingslayer, oath breaker, incest commiter (if thats a word lol) where Ser Barristan The Bold is honorable and a brave hero.

So brave and heroic that he never once stood up for the victims of Aerys madness?

[Mark Sawyer]

So brave and heroic that he never once stood up for the victims of Aerys madness?

Jaime stood up when vicotry for Robert was certain...maybe Selmy would of done the same thing...but to stand up prior to that...to just get murdered by a mentally unstable king..whats the sense in that...sounds like a suicide mission...and Selmy is much to smart for that

[Addam of Hull]

We can't really compare Barristan and Jaime in regards to Jaime's slaying of Aerys - Barristan was never given the chance to stop the Mad King from burning down King's Landing. And they're both equally culpable for letting Aerys burn Rickard and watching as Brandon strangled to death trying to save his father. Jaime only stands up after his father sacks King's Landing and the entire population is in danger which is after Barristan is injured during the Battle of the Trident. Aerys wasn't always bad either. It's made fairly obvious that his insanity only really peaks during Robert's Rebellion. Prior to that, he was a crazy, paranoid old coot, yeah, but he'd done very little to deserve death. When Aerys does act and war breaks out, Barristan spends of it in the campaign.

That being said, I do think Jaime's decision to slay Aerys and stop the burning of King's Landing is definitely heroic, no matter what his intentions were. He saves lives. That's important.

[Kazaam_88]

I think the point is that all heroes are supposed to have faults. Not all heroes are going to be recognized in the same light, but it doesn't stop them from being heroes. I once heard that suffering for what you believe in is a heroic notion. That is exactly what Jaime has been doing. Good for him.

[DornishKnight]

NEITHER is a hero. Barristan served a madman, changed alliegances twice, and only now is comprehending reality.

Jaime was young when he served Aerys (wasn't he 17 when he killed him?), he had an arc from honorable knight (think a male Sansa) to watching his king commit murders while his self-righteous and "honorable" Kingsguard father figures stood by and did nothing. His experiences made him the cynical, amoral, bitter man we see. I've been digging the redemption arc, though.

At the beginning of the book, Barristan is serving a false, hypocritical set of morals; Jaime has no morals.

[The King in the South]

Jaime stood up when vicotry for Robert was certain...maybe Selmy would of done the same thing...but to stand up prior to that...to just get murdered by a mentally unstable king..whats the sense in that...sounds like a suicide mission...and Selmy is much to smart for that

Why do you people keep equating the other character when I'm talking about the other one? I don't think either of them are heros, so please stop bringing up Jaime when I'm talking about Barristan and vice cersa.

And sorry, that's exactly what being a hero is, it's self sacrifice for others. Barristan didn't have to run up and slash Aerys in the middle of it, that would have been stupid I agree, but he never once spoke out, never once tried to help those in peril, never once even worked with others to try and do something. He just sat there, and for a while he was doing the exact same thing with Dany; albeit to a lesser extent. Dudes a great knight, but not a hero. A hero is someone like Chelsted or Squire Dalbridge

[Light a wight tonight]

Even more people have screwed his brother, so what's the big deal?

Seriously, if we were prosecuting the Lannister family for promiscuity, Cersei would come in far, far after her brother or dear old dad. The only difference is these books portray Tyrion's desire to pay gorgoeus teen girls to live as sort of fantasy girlfriend Tysha replacements as natural and touching, and his recent decision to terrorize helpless sex slaves as understandable and the result of inner torments; Cersei's choice to manipulate willing men with sex as Pure Evil and something that detracts deeply from her worth as a human being. (The Lannister cloak is threadbare, and so is old used Cersei!)

I really don't especially concern myself about Cersei's intimate moments, just part of the story, and it's just a story. Well with the exception of those with the Kettleblacks. I mean, really!

Actually the only one to screw Tyrion was Shae. Screwed him good, she did. Otherwise he was the screwor, not the screwee. And as a good little Lannister he paid his debts.

"Terrorizing sex slaves"? Only one, as I recall, and she was a spy for Illyrio. And he was an unarmed dwarf.

[The Duke]

I got the impression that pretty much no one knew of the wildfire stashed around the city. They didn't know he saved everyones lives and Jaime seems like the kind of guy who is going to go around explaining himself to gain approval. Even Barristan questions if what he did was the right thing, but being an oathbreaker seems to be a huge thing in westeros.

[zalim]

So brave and heroic that he never once stood up for the victims of Aerys madness?

because he was loyal to the thrones and a king who was ALIVE !

jaime waited and when he knew the victory is certian he did what he did !

coward

[Castel]

because he was loyal to the thrones and a king who was ALIVE !

jaime waited and when he knew the victory is certian he did what he did !

coward

Kinda like how Barristan watched the Regent's men get killed and him seized, despite royal decree and would have continued to serve said woman if she hadnt fired him?

They're both men, and they acted to save their own skins.

[JaimeTheMannister]

One of my favorite parts is in aFfC when jaime is remembering the night that Aerys had Lord Chelstead burned alive, later that night Jaime and Ser Darry are guarding the queens door and hear Aerys defiling her and her screaming in agony. Clearly fed up w Aerys' shit at this point Jaime says something like "we are sworn to protect her as well" and Darry says "we are. But not from him"

I think that's a great insight into how the whole kingslayer thing came about Aerys had it coming I see why people hate him for doing it but I personally think it was the more honorable route to kill Aerys and save KL especially since I'm sure jaime knew how much shit he was gonna get for it