Melisandre's Powers

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I also give Melisandre credit for the deaths of Balon Greyjoy, Robb Stark and Joffrey

Uh, no. She saw the deaths in her fires and tricked Stannis into thinking she could have anything to do with them. Doesn't mean she did. I have no idea why people think this.

The Freys and Boltons betrayed and killed Robb.

Littlefinger and the Tyrells assassinated Joffrey.

Euron hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon.

No Melisandre influence in any of those.

[Call me Odie]

She is definitely a shadow binder but how that relates to R'hllor is not yet clear, shadows being agents of light and most of the cities of Essos following the lord of fire makes sense.

As for surviving the poison I suspect maester Pylos had a hand in that tipping her off and giving her an antidote.

Ohh, I think Mel is long dead, and you can't kill the dead. "What is dead may never die" to quote the idiots from the Iron Islands

[Sasha Steelsong]

I also give Melisandre credit for the deaths of Balon Greyjoy, Robb Stark and Joffrey

I'm sort of 50/50 on this, like the slugs were a final blessing on plans already in motion but not that she caused the various events. I'll buy that the slugs helped all three assassination plots go off without a hitch and with all three succeeding (as opposed to one or two working but the third being found out) but she I don't think she was the inital domino in the chain. I feel more like she saw the potential for the deaths in the fire and she then used her magic to put a bit of weight on the scales to make sure the potential was realized. Or put more simply, I don't think the slugs were the governing force behind the three deaths, but I won't discount that they may have played some part as the end result was all of Stannis's enemies being swept from the board as if by magic.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm sort of 50/50 on this, like the slugs were a final blessing on plans already in motion but not that she caused the various events. I'll buy that the slugs helped all three assassination plots go off without a hitch and with all three succeeding (as opposed to one or two working but the third being found out) but she I don't think she was the inital domino in the chain. I feel more like she saw the potential for the deaths in the fire and she then used her magic to put a bit of weight on the scales to make sure the potential was realized. Or put more simply, I don't think the slugs were the governing force behind the three deaths, but I won't discount that they may have played some part as the end result was all of Stannis's enemies being swept from the board as if by magic.

I don't even believe this. The slugs were a magic trick to get Stannis to believe she had influence and to imply a causal relationship where none existed. That's it.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I don't even believe this. The slugs were a magic trick to get Stannis to believe she had influence and to imply a causal relationship where none existed. That's it.

And you're entitled to believe that. I just don't believe in a world where tricks are becoming real because magic seems to be coming back that we can totally discount the slugs as a useless trick. Heck when Beric was raised the first time it wasn't cause Thoros actually intended to raise him, he just did a ritual that previously had been done to the dead and this time, and for the first time in a while, the ritual actually did what it was supposed to. I don't think they were the primary cause but I also don't think that they had no effect.

[Prince of the North]

I believe Mel has received the "Kiss of Fire". I think that explains how she doesn't need to sleep or eat much, radiates heat, may very well be much older than she seems, etc. I also believe she's using a glamor on herself - she's a seductress. I also think she's a damned accomplished sorceress but, of course, any practitioner of magic would still make use of other tricks of the trade like powders, ensorcelled items (e.g. the magic necklace that protected her from Cressen's poison - Dany received one as a gift as well), etc.

I also don't believe there really are "different" kinds of magic (i.e. blood, fire, shadow, green, etc.) I think there is just magic which is used or manifests itself in many different ways and the efforts to explain and understand these differences is where the categorization originates. I also think that's where the Gods who are supposedly "granting" these powers to people originate. In other words, I think the magic is "real" in this story but the gods aren't.

[BabyMeraxes]

I don't even believe this. The slugs were a magic trick to get Stannis to believe she had influence and to imply a causal relationship where none existed. That's it.

I wish I had a better understanding of the in-book chronology surrounding these events, but I think there was focus placed on this scene for a reason. Did the Frey's kill Robb? Yup, I'll give you that. But Balon and Joff are a little shadier. Also, Melisandre's magic rarely fails, right? She's had some trouble with prophecy, but it's not she's making shit up, she still sees visions, she just misinterprets them. I just wouldn't be surprised if this ritual was revisited in an upcoming book. But, I'll readily admit I'm a sorcery junkie, and, as always, I admire and respect your enthusiasm, Apple Martini. Keep on keepin' on.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wish I had a better understanding of the in-book chronology surrounding these events, but I think there was focus placed on this scene for a reason. Did the Frey's kill Robb? Yup, I'll give you that. But Balon and Joff are a little shadier. Also, Melisandre's magic rarely fails, right? She's had some trouble with prophecy, but it's not she's making shit up, she still sees visions, she just misinterprets them. I just wouldn't be surprised if this ritual was revisited in an upcoming book. But, I'll readily admit I'm a sorcery junkie, and, as always, I admire and respect your enthusiasm, Apple Martini. Keep on keepin' on.

I think it served as a foreshadowing that these men would end up dying, but I still see absolutely no evidence of actual influence or causality here. People are getting led around the way Stannis was, tricking themselves into thinking Melisandre caused the deaths. I'm not denying that Melisandre saw the deaths, only that she's leading Stannis to think she caused them when she didn't. Correlation is not causation. If I say, "If I clap my hands three times, it will rain" and I clap my hands and it rains, does that mean my clapping caused it? No. Similarly, Stannis tossing slugs in a fire didn't kill Robb, Balon or Joffrey.

Balon's death and Joffrey's are explained if you read closely. People saying they might have had an effect ... what effect would this have been? Joffrey's death was probably cooked up when Littlefinger went to arrange the marriage with Tyrells (Olenna just asked Sansa for confirmation of what she already knew). Euron could have hired the Faceless Man quite a while before the hit actually occurred. Where does Melisandre's magic come into this?

[Ghost714]

Ha ha why do people keep calling them "slugs"? They were leeches!!!

[BabyMeraxes]

I think it served as a foreshadowing that these men would end up dying, but I still see absolutely no evidence of actual influence or causality here. People are getting led around the way Stannis was, tricking themselves into thinking Melisandre caused the deaths. I'm not denying that Melisandre saw the deaths, only that she's leading Stannis to think she caused them when she didn't. Correlation is not causation. If I say, "If I clap my hands three times, it will rain" and I clap my hands and it rains, does that mean my clapping caused it? No. Similarly, Stannis tossing slugs in a fire didn't kill Robb, Balon or Joffrey.

Balon's death and Joffrey's are explained if you read closely. People saying they might have had an effect ... what effect would this have been? Joffrey's death was probably cooked up when Littlefinger went to arrange the marriage with Tyrells (Olenna just asked Sansa for confirmation of what she already knew). Euron could have hired the Faceless Man quite a while before the hit actually occurred. Where does Melisandre's magic come into this?

We'll just have to wait and see! Joff and Balon's deaths are hinted at vaguely, and discussed without confirmation. I just wouldn't be surprised, is all I'm saying.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ha ha why do people keep calling them "slugs"? They were leeches!!!

Slugs, leeches, they all look the same to me. :P

We'll just have to wait and see! Joff and Balon's deaths are hinted at vaguely, and discussed without confirmation. I just wouldn't be surprised, is all I'm saying.

It's not vague if you actually consider and piece together the information and the motives involved. Martin doesn't spoonfeed everything. If anything, he'll "confirm" lies and leave truths open to readers to figure it out themselves. Again, no evidence of causality here.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Balon's death and Joffrey's are explained if you read closely. People saying they might have had an effect ... what effect would this have been? Joffrey's death was probably cooked up when Littlefinger went to arrange the marriage with Tyrells (Olenna just asked Sansa for confirmation of what she already knew). Euron could have hired the Faceless Man quite a while before the hit actually occurred. Where does Melisandre's magic come into this?

Well that all three were pulled off perfectly without problems. Joffery's death may have been cooked up in Highgarden but it still had to play out and at each step there was the potential that it would go wrong, that someone would get suspicious, etc, but instead it went perfectly. While Balon was killed by a faceless man rather than just falling off the bridge he'd walked his entire life, it wasn't guarenteed that would succeed. So I think it is possible that her magic there worked as a blessing on the deaths (like an extra bit of tangible luck) that made them run perfectly rather than the initial cause of them which I agree did not come from Mel.

[Ghost714]

We'll just have to wait and see! Joff and Balon's deaths are hinted at vaguely, and discussed without confirmation. I just wouldn't be surprised, is all I'm saying.

What more confirmation do you need? Littlefinger was mainly behind Joffrey's death, he pretty much says so to Sansa, and The Ghost of High Heart saw that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man. The Ghost of High Heart was right about The death of Renly, and the death and ressurection of Catelyn... So I really doubt she was wrong about Balon.

I do not see much room for speculation.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well that all three were pulled off perfectly without problems. Joffery's death may have been cooked up in Highgarden but it still had to play out and at each step there was the potential that it would go wrong, that someone would get suspicious, etc. While I think Balon was killed by a faceless man (don't remember if the book confirmed this or not) rather than just falling off the bridge he'd walked his entire life, it wasn't guarenteed that would succeed. So I think it is possible that her magic there worked as a blessing on the deaths (like an extra bit of tangible luck) that made them run perfectly rather than the initial cause of them.

I think that's a stretch, but whatever. Stuff goes right all the time without "blessings." I still think it's nothing more than her duping Stannis (and apparently some readers ;)) into thinking she has more influence than she does.

It's not confirmed in the story, but like I said, Martin leaves a lot of information hanging out there for readers to figure out for themselves. It's not ever explicitly confirmed that Roose Bolton killed Robb Stark, for pete's sake. Readers have to use the killer's words and dress to figure it out. The drowned one-eyed crow on the shoulder of a man without a face is the clue about what happened to Balon. The maid with purple serpents in her hair and Olenna "adjusting" her hairnet are the clues about what happened to Joffrey.

[Ghost714]

Well that all three were pulled off perfectly without problems. Joffery's death may have been cooked up in Highgarden but it still had to play out and at each step there was the potential that it would go wrong, that someone would get suspicious, etc, but instead it went perfectly. While Balon was killed by a faceless man rather than just falling off the bridge he'd walked his entire life, it wasn't guarenteed that would succeed. So I think it is possible that her magic there worked as a blessing on the deaths (like an extra bit of tangible luck) that made them run perfectly rather than the initial cause of them which I agree did not come from Mel.

Ok I will agree, that Mel could have given the deaths, the extra "push" they needed to succeed. That's definitely open to interpretation, it can not be proved that Mel's magic with the leeches did not help, so I guess it's up to the individual, and what they rather believe.

[BabyMeraxes]

It's not vague if you actually consider and piece together the information and the motives involved. Martin doesn't spoonfeed everything. If anything, he'll "confirm" lies and leave truths open to readers to figure it out themselves. Again, no evidence of causality here.

When were these deaths mentioned? In prophecy, and from Littlefinger's forked tongue. I agree that Littlefinger probably believes he and the Tyrells are behind Joff's death, but I JUST WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED if Mel's leeches influenced them. But whatever, it doesn't matter. This shit is open to interpretation, so I interpreted.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Ok I will agree, that Mel could have given the deaths, the extra "push" they needed to succeed. That's definitely open to interpretation, it can not be proved that Mel's magic with the leeches did not help, so I guess it's up to the individual, and what they rather believe.

And that is entirely my point. I haven't dupped into believing that she is all powerful, just don't think that in this world at this point you can say that what would have been a complete trick a couple decades earlier didn't have some effect, since things that didn't work before are working now. I don't think we'll ever totally know either, but if Beric can be raised by accident there is no reason to think that Mel's leaches were totally ineffectual.

[Ghost714]

And that is entirely my point. I haven't dupped into believing that she is all powerful, just don't think that in this world at this point you can say that what would have been a complete trick a couple decades earlier didn't have some effect, since things that didn't work before are working now. I don't think we'll ever totally know either, but if Beric can be raised by accident there is no reason to think that Mel's leaches were totally ineffectual.

I can agree with that logic, i think you are right, it can not be proved that Mel's magic did not have something to do with the deaths.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When were these deaths mentioned? In prophecy, and from Littlefinger's forked tongue. I agree that Littlefinger probably believes he and the Tyrells are behind Joff's death, but I JUST WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED if Mel's leeches influenced them. But whatever, it doesn't matter. This shit is open to interpretation, so I interpreted.

Prophecies that turned out to be accurate.

I can agree with that logic, i think you are right, it can not be proved that Mel's magic did not have something to do with the deaths.

You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof rests on people who believe that Melisandre's leeches had actual causality, and they can't do it.

[Sasha Steelsong]

You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof rests on people who believe that Melisandre's leeches had actual causality, and they can't do it.

You're conflating causality with influence. I certianly am not arguing that the leaches caused the three deaths, in fact I've said explicitly that they weren't the primary cause. But that does not mean that they didn't have an influence. Just because they weren't the primary cause doesn't automatically mean that the leaches did nothing given the nebulous nature of magic in this world and more importantly how those who work with it aren't entirely aware of the extent of their own powers.