Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[chris999]

I just want to chime in and say that I dont think that AA and TPTWP are the same thing, or can be the same person.

AA is the champion of Ry'llor that fights against the Others/ice.

The PTWP is "who's song will be Ice and fire" (-quote from Rheagar)

I think that Dany is AA, and her dragons are lightbringer.

I think that Jon is TPTWP, because he is both ice and fire.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I also really like the idea of Rhaegar being AA (reborn) and Jon being Lightbringer. However, while the symbolism of prophecy can confuse people into taking metaphors and allegories literally, I think the basic nature of Lightbringer, a powerful weapon against the dark, would mostly remain intact. So assuming LB is still a weapon, and that Jon is LB, who is going to "wield" him? Who is the AA who employs LB?

First off, I have to say that I don't like the idea of my homeboy being "used" by anyone. Unless of course it's not so much "using" as directing and guiding, and I see Bran, loving little bro, being in the perfect position to do this, which imo strengthens his position as a possible AA.

ETA: Hmm...I think I just made the Argument that both Rhaegar and Bran are AA. No idea how to reconcile that, but I like the rest of my idea so ima stick with it.

[Corm]

In regards to tze's post, I think the idea of hatching living breathing dragons from stone is remarkable, regardless of whether dragons populate the earth or not. This is not how the natural hatching would appear to take place, that makes it special.

Moreover, so what if it wasn't a big deal back then? Not every part of the prophecy is extraordinary. The idea of being born amidst smoke and salt isn't particularly incredible, especially when you consider the fact that some people believe it signifies smokekd and salted food in the wall. Prophecies are supposed to predict the future, there is nothing that says some of the events, descriptions or circumstances can't be mundane or ordinary, that is not the nature of prophecy. In fact, a lot of the time it is the ordinary facts which distinguish who/what the prophecy is talking about

[chris999]

My personal opinion is that Jon cant be Lightbringer, because Jon is both Ice and Fire, and lightbringer is strictly a weapon intended for AA, which only serves fire.

[Dacie]

I also really like the idea of Rhaegar being AA (reborn) and Jon being Lightbringer. However, while the symbolism of prophecy can confuse people into taking metaphors and allegories literally, I think the basic nature of Lightbringer, a powerful weapon against the dark, would mostly remain intact. So assuming LB is still a weapon, and that Jon is LB, who is going to "wield" him? Who is the AA who employs LB?

First off, I have to say that I don't like the idea of my homeboy being "used" by anyone. Unless of course it's not so much "using" as directing and guiding, and I see Bran, loving little bro, being in the perfect position to do this, which imo strengthens his position as a possible AA.

ETA: Hmm...I think I just made the Argument that both Rhaegar and Bran are AA. No idea how to reconcile that, but I like the rest of my idea so ima stick with it.

Perhaps Rhaegar was AA and Bran will be TPtwP? They might not necessarily be one in the same...

[koststerg]

There are two different prophecies (that they might or might not refer to the same person) The bigest problem is that the AA pr. (thousant years old and rather widely known and used) and the PtwP pr. (500 years old and refered in books accesible to a variety of people) have been merged in the minds of many people among them Aemon, Melisandre and the High red priest as they think they will be fullfiled by the same person.

I agree with many here that the reference of dragons and its significance is the crusial point (and Aemon agrees with me :laugh: ). I think tze has very interesting ideas here. Lightbringer appears only in almost half versions of the AA pr. but in none of the PtwP versions (infact the Targarians are trying like mad to hatch dragon eggs but nobody tries to light up a sword). On the other hand the dragons appear in several of the interpratations of the AA pr. and in every single one of the PtwP references.

I believe that tze is right and that the original version of the AA pr. speaks only of the Lightbringer and has no mensoin of dragons (at least the old book Aemon leaves to Jon speaks of the shord). However in the last years the Red Priests learned the PtwP pr. and have incorporated it in the AA tradition.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Well, my little contribution seems very feeble after all that heavy thinking, but I'll go ahead anyway. Viserys used the term "wake the dragon," to mean "make me angry." Maybe "waking a dragon from stone" means "pissing off a stoic Targaryen." I know that seems terribly anticlimatic, but I also think we're fairly certain to see a certain very cool (no pun intended) and contained assumed Targaryen awake, literally, mad as hell. And that angry assumed Targaryen will cause all sorts of interesting things to happen.

I'd also point out that kings and "kings" have dropped like flies through out ASOIAF, so the two dead kings could be any combination thereof, but I give you for your consideration

Balon and Theon, especially because it seems possible that Theon's blood will be shed on a wierwood, which may cause all sorts of exciting things to happen.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

If they actually aren't the same thing, then I think it's much more likely reversed. Rhaegar is TPtwP (comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, a sign specific to the Prince, not to AA, while Bran does not), and Bran is AA then and now, the original and reborn.

Which begs the question. What the heck is Dany's role in all of this anyway? She could just stay in Essos forever and no one and nothing would give a crap. Lol, maybe she's the Great Other? :devil:

ETA: This is in response to Givemesomesnow

[Hamsa]

Which begs the question. What the heck is Dany's role in all of this anyway? She could just stay in Essos forever and no one and nothing would give a crap. Lol, maybe she's the Great Other? :devil:

.... or the Great Red Herring :P

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

.... or the Great Red Herring :P

That sounds delicious. Maybe dragon-flame broiled?

[chris999]

NM

[Dacie]

Sign me up right now. Rhaegar was right from the beginning, before he started worrying about his boy Aegon how many heads dragons have.

Seriously, this does feel a little crackpot, but at the same time it's the first invocation of Nissa Nissa that doesn't feel totally forced to me. Lyanna! If this is true, it would indicate to me that there is a prophecy out there that was explaining what it really meant to be the PtwP, but Rhaegar misinterpreted it.

Right? Because he read up on prophecies that told him he was the PtwP (two kings must die, one before the other, Summerhall), but then something changed, and he began to believe his son was the key. Fascinating. Because, in a way, he was right. Or I guess Jon could still be the PtwP if that's not necessarily the same thing as Azor Ahai reborn.

What would that prophecy say? And If Rhaegar knew -- if he had interpreted it correctly -- would he have gone forward with the plan? Or is it dependent on his misinterpretation? How much did he love Lyanna?

The idea of Lyanna as Nissa Nissa is what made me start think this might be possible.

And since I'm going crack pot I might as well go all the way ;) ....

AA of legend tried to forge Lightbringer three times. He failed the first two times. Only when he destroyed the thing he loved most did he succeed.

Rhaegar had two children with Elia. It is very likely he never loved her, theirs was an arranged political marriage.

Jon is Rhaegar's third child. By Lyanna, who he loved(?) enough to incite rebellion and cause the downfall of his entire house. This child ultimately caused her death.

[chris999]

a copy and paste from a post I made in a thread that sunk to the bottom of the front page.

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I think that Dany is Azor Ahai, who will have the power of Fire and Ry'llor, the fire god. I think that she makes the most sense because the prophecy fits her so well, concerning the comet, being re-born amid smoke and salt and with the dragons being the perfect form for Lightbringer.

I think that Bran fits best as The Nightsking. Who will have the power of Ice and The Old Gods. With powers over warging and over the Others.

And I think that Jon fits best as TPTWP, (which I think is not the same thing as AA, like I think many make the mistake of confusing the two). In Dany's vision at the House of Undying, she has a vision of Rhegar saying that someone shall be "the song of Ice AND Fire". pretty obvious considering his probable parentage.

Jon will reconcile the two opposing forces, and together, all three of them will fight against a common enemy that has not been introduced yet.

so:

Dany - AA (power of fire)

Bran - Nightsking (power of Ice)

Jon - TPTWP (The Prince that will bring balance between the 2 factions)

Also, I think that these three could be the Three Heads of the Dragon:

Dany can already ride Drogon.

Bran can probably warg one of the other dragons.

and Jon somehow(?) should be able to ride the remaining dragon.

(Notice I left out Aegon, which probably means that he is truly the "mummer's dragon, and not a real Targ.)

The only part that I cant figure out is why the 3 heads of the dragon are on opposing sides against each other... Does this mean that during the final Battle for the Dawn, that the 2 sides will quit fighting each other (John will get the 2 sides to join forces!)in order to fight a common foe that has not yet been revealed?

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

AA of legend tried to forge Lightbringer three times. He failed the first two times. Only when he destroyed the thing he loved most did he succeed.

Rhaegar had two children with Elia. It is very likely he never loved her, theirs was an arranged political marriage.

Jon is Rhaegar's third child. By Lyanna, who he loved(?) enough to incite rebellion and cause the downfall of his entire house. This child ultimately caused her death.

I love this.

Two children who are not Lightbringer, though Rhaegar desperately wanted them to be something foretold. The third child is LB, who destroys a loved one to be born, forged by fire (Targs trying to fulfill the prophecy forever) and tempered in ice (Stark upbringing). It's just so darned poetic, it must be true.

[Hamsa]

Jon will reconcile the two opposing forces, and together, all three of them will fight against a common enemy that has not been introduced yet.

...

The only part that I cant figure out is why the 3 heads of the dragon are on opposing sides against each other... Does this mean that during the final Battle for the Dawn, that the 2 sides will quit fighting each other (John will get the 2 sides to join forces!)in order to fight a common foe that has not yet been revealed?

I like your idea of Jon reconciling the two opposing forces, but I don't know about a common foe that brings them all together. GRRM has said that this isn't a story of everyone getting on the same side and fighting "evil"--it's about balance. Perhaps the endgame is simply that Jon balances Bran's power of ice and Dany's power of fire.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There's a point I feel compelled to make whenever the subject of magical flaming hot swords comes up, and that is, that those swords don't require the return of a savior to appear. Sure, Mel couldn't conjure one up, but Beric Dondarrion did with just a bit of his blood. So, would Lightbringer be something that any zombie can whip out when the occasion demands? Unlikely. Look elsewhere.

[Dragonfish]

And I think that Jon fits best as TPTWP, (which I think is not the same thing as AA, like I think many make the mistake of confusing the two).

People think Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are the same because Aemon and Melisandre both use the terms interchangeably. It's possible they're wrong, to be sure, but those of us who think they're the same are not confusing them, we're just going off of what characters in the books think.

In Dany's vision at the House of Undying, she has a vision of Rhegar saying that someone shall be "the song of Ice AND Fire". pretty obvious considering his probable parentage.

He says "his is the song of ice and fire." Nothing about this statement necessarily implies that "ice and fire" refers to the personal qualities of the PWWP. It could just as easily mean that the PWWP's story is the "story of ice and fire", i.e. he will will play a central role in a conflict involving the opposing forces of ice and fire.

[Lord Damian]

Not that this matters, Rheagar dies at the Trident first, King Aerys the mad King is suposedly killed by Jaime, makiing for a few moments, baby Aegon king. Does this fit into this?

[chris999]

Not that this matters, Rheagar dies at the Trident first, King Aerys the mad King is suposedly killed by Jaime, makiing for a few moments, baby Aegon king. Does this fit into this?

edit - nevermind, Jon Snow was a king at one point. My original post said otherwise, then the POS website broke like usual, and I couldnt change it.

[koststerg]

The idea that the original AA prophecy does not have dragons in it could have the following consequences

Firstly, if the meaning of sword is literal Dany is not AA as she does not have a sword and wouldn't know how to use it (as it has been mentioned). The prophecy is not yet fulfilled and good candidates for it could be Jon or Dany (or anybody really). Why the sword would be important? Maybe because it is the only thing that can cut the curtain of Winter or maybe because a hero not properly accessorized is not really a hero :dunno: .

Secondly, if the meaning of sword is metaphorical then Dany's dragons could be the solution. There is still the problem that she fulfilled the prophesy before the summer ends but it was not that far away from this long summer's ending. Anyway I don't think there is time for anybody else to hatch a Dragon egg now and have a fully grown dragon before the story ends.

Also one other thought. The idea of the 3 heads-persons is linked with the dragons and especially with the Targarian tradition and history of Aegon I. So, if there are no dragons in the original AA prophecy there are no 3 AA. (There still could be 3 PtwP, one of which could be also the AA)