Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[Dragonfish]

I just think that the Targs read too much into prophecy, due to their desperation to bring back the dragons.

I also just cant get around the fact that Rheagar says that one of his children will be the song of "ICE and fire"

The Rl'llor prophecy would not mention ice since Ice is the ultimate enemy of their god.

I've already pointed this out to you, but perhaps you missed it: Rhaegar does not say his child will be "the song of ice and fire." He says his song is the song of ice and fire. Nothing about this necessarily implies that ice and fire are aspects of the PWWP. It could just as easily mean that the PWWP's story will be the story of ice and fire (i.e. the battle between the forces of ice and fire).

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I just think that the Targs read too much into prophecy, due to their desperation to bring back the dragons.

I also just cant get around the fact that Rheagar says that one of his children will be the song of "ICE and fire"

The Rl'llor prophecy would not mention ice since Ice is the ultimate enemy of their god.

Rheagar was talking about TPTWP

Melissandre was talking about Azor Ahai reborn.

Two different prophecies, two different people.

Prophecies are often misread.

IIRC, Rhaegar believed his son Aegon to be TPTWP, but he also believed, "The dragon has three heads," and that one of his other children would be TSOIAF. I doubt Rhaegar believed TPTWP and TSOIAF to be the same person, so he would still be within the confines of the Rl'llor prophecy.

I personally believe that they are the same, but that's just me.

[chris999]

I've already pointed this out to you, but perhaps you missed it: Rhaegar does not say his child will be "the song of ice and fire." He says his song is the song of ice and fire. Nothing about this necessarily implies that ice and fire are aspects of the PWWP. It could just as easily mean that the PWWP's story will be the story of ice and fire (i.e. the battle between the forces of ice and fire).

You're right about that.

[chris999]

IIRC, Rhaegar believed his son Aegon to be TPTWP, but he also believed, "The dragon has three heads," and that one of his other children would be TSOIAF. I doubt Rhaegar believed TPTWP and TSOIAF to be the same person, so he would still be within the confines of the Rl'llor prophecy.

I personally believe that they are the same, but that's just me.

This is my point. He had already proclaimed that his son Aegon was was some kind of answer to a prophecy.

But that he still believed that there should be another.

I cant convince everyone, but it is the theory that I am hanging onto.

[Bushido]

Rhaegar also believed that HE was tPwwP.

[chris999]

IIRC, Rhaegar believed his son Aegon to be TPTWP, but he also believed, "The dragon has three heads," and that one of his other children would be TSOIAF. I doubt Rhaegar believed TPTWP and TSOIAF to be the same person, so he would still be within the confines of the Rl'llor prophecy.

I personally believe that they are the same, but that's just me.

My opinion is that the dragon will have three heads.

1. AA reborn to fight for Ry'llor

2. Some kind of champion to fight for the Great Other. (Nightsking reborn?)

3. TPTWP to reconcile the two opposing forces before they kill everybody in the world in a war.

Personally I think it is...

1. Dany

2. Bran

3. Jon Snow.

[Dacie]

What if "the dragon had three heads" refers to Rhaegar's three children.

I mentioned before about AA trying to forge Lightbringer twice before succeeding. Rhaegar tried to fulfill the prophesy with his children twice before succeeding.

It was confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the HotU was of Elia, Rhaegar, and baby Aegon. In the vision Dany sees Rhaegar talking to Elia at first. "Aegon. What better name for a king. He is the prince who was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Then he turns his eyes to Dany and says "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."

This could indicate that originally Rhaegar thought it was Aegon, or tried to convince himself and/or Elia of this. However, when he turns and to Dany, it could mean that he realized this was not TPwwP and knows there must be another.

Three heads of the dragon. Three times to create Lightbringer.

Thoughts?

If I'm way out in left field please feel free to correct me.

[lojzelote]

I wouldn't go just by the people in this modern time. There have been some pretty badass, hot-headed Starks in the day, and there have been Targs who were quiet and liked to read and pray.

I blame their words, too. Blood and fire. Who imagines quiet people who like to read and pray? Queen Naerys must have felt like an outsider. Winter is coming can be used in broader sense, either as a war cry, or as a weather prediction/warning.

As to whether AA and the PtwP are the same person or different, my gut says that they're the same. Could they be different, sure. But I think that part of the point is that cultures see and interpret what they want, play up aspects that they want and follow the signs they choose to follow. I think it could be fitting if none of the religions got it entirely right, rather than each religion getting its own custom-design messiah..

That´s funny. My gut says they´re different. :) Nothing to back to back it up, though. Only, my gut feels very nauseous when thinking about Melisandre, Moqorro(sp?), the slave temples, the preaching, and the Uns. Utterly devoted servants of R´hllor set me against their Chosen One, I fear. If AA is really meant to do what they want him to do (endless Summer, endless day, no death, blah blah), then he sounds more like someone who´s going to make the things worse, not better. On the other hand tCotF give him very good feeling, being native to Westeros and representing the nature and the balance (at least it´s the way I see them), and Children seem interested in tPwwP being born (again, if tGoHH is a Child and didn´t lie/wasn´t mistaken). :dunno:

[chris999]

What if "the dragon had three heads" refers to Rhaegar's three children.

I mentioned before about AA trying to forge Lightbringer twice before succeeding. Rhaegar tried to fulfill the prophesy with his children twice before succeeding.

It was confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the HotU was of Elia, Rhaegar, and baby Aegon. In the vision Dany sees Rhaegar talking to Elia at first. "Aegon. What better name for a king. He is the prince who was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." Then he turns his eyes to Dany and says "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."

This could indicate that originally Rhaegar thought it was Aegon, or tried to convince himself and/or Elia of this. However, when he turns and to Dany, it could mean that he realized this was not TPwwP and knows there must be another.

Three heads of the dragon. Three times to create Lightbringer.

Thoughts?

If I'm way out in left field please feel free to correct me.

Other than my own theory, this is the one that I like second best.

[CrypticWeirwood]

CPPSUI & STOWTM?

Could people please stop using all these silly initialisms, and simply type out what they mean? It is a real trial trying to read postings full of these things. This isn’t Twitter. There is no 140-character length restriction.

Please, please, please have mercy on your readers and say what you mean with proper words.

PS: I’m having trouble keeping up, but here’s a listing. See how mad that is?

[tze]

On the ice/fire issue:

I think it's relevant that Westeros itself is tied, not just to the elements of both ice and fire (unlike Essos and (presumably) Sothyros), but that in Westeros, we tend not to find "pure" ice or "pure" fire---we constantly find ice and fire merging. Dorne isn't just a place of heat---as a desert, it's a place of extreme heat (fire) in the day, but simultaneously, it's a place of extreme cold (ice) at night. In the North, you find volcanic areas situated in places of extreme cold: Winterfell, Hardhome (presumably), etc. The Watch, whose members swear to be "the fire that burns against the cold", is stationed on a massive wall of ice.

We don't know exactly how "the song of ice and fire" fits in with the AA/PTWP prophecy(ies), but we can infer that Rhaegar had some reason to believe that the PTWP would in some way embody "the song of ice and fire". But if you think about it, any Targ would always need an outside "ice" source to fit the prophecy, but someone like Jon---a Stark---doesn't really need anything from Rhaegar to embody both ice and fire via his Stark parent alone. Look at where Winterfell is, where it has been for thousands and thousands of years: in a place of ice and fire. Any Stark of Winterfell could logically be said to embody both ice and fire, because Winterfell is a place of extreme heat situated in a place of extreme cold. "Winter is coming" is a motto, not just of winter, but of summer as well, because it embodies the dangers of winter, not just in winter, but in spring/summer/autumn (the times when it's necessary to prepare for winter---the times when "winter is coming" is most useful as a warning). We don't even need to look at Jon as a son of Rhaegar to have him embody both ice and fire, because Lyanna Stark of Winterfell would have embodied both elements all by herself. The Targaryens, as pure fire . . . kinda aren't necessary for a melding of ice and fire. The Starks already have both elements covered.

Jon already embodies both ice and fire in three ways without even bringing Rhaegar into the picture: as a son of Lyanna Stark of Winterfell (the icy castle built over volcanic hot springs) who was himself raised in Winterfell, as a member of the Watch ("the fire that burns against the cold" that's parked on a giant wall of ice), and as someone who was (probably) born in Dorne and "killed" in the North. Rhaegar and the fire-loving Targs are kind of hilariously superfluous to the whole "ice and fire" issue in Westeros, because an outside "fire" source was never actually lacking there, even long before the Targs even arrived.

I'm not saying I disagree with R+L=J at all. I'm saying that, if AA/PTWP in some way embodies "the song of ice and fire" in ancient prophecy----well, perhaps the point of the prophecy is not that it's about the Targs and the Starks, or even that it's about one family embodying one element and another family embodying another element. It could simply be saying that this person, as both ice and fire, cannot ever be a Targ. The Targs seemed to believe it was "all about them" . . . but they're one group that is inherently barred from embodying this prophecy, because as a group solely attached to fire. someone who identifies as a Targ can never be described as both fire and ice, certainly not in the way that a Stark (or even a Dornishman) could. In fact, notice how every person with a Targaryen parent that is also associated with ice---Maester Aemon, Bloodraven, and (probably) Jon---only associates with ice when he fails to bear the Targaryen name.

[The guy from the Vale]

Thank you, tze. This dovetails nicely with my theory that while the PtwP prophecy is true in the sense that yes, a Targaryen will be Azor Ahai (if that interpretation of PtwP is right in the first place), his Targ heritage will matter next to nothing for fulfilling the prophecy; all the skills he'll need (like, perhaps, warging, or the honour code) would be coming from his Stark side.

[FuzzyJAM]

One thing I don't get is how fire and ice are supposed to oppose each other. Fire melts ice, fire wins. I guess the counter-argument would be that fire burns itself out, at which point the water becomes ice again?

Of course, it's just symbolic, so maybe I'm being nitpicky.

[lojzelote]

On the ice/fire issue:

I think it's relevant that Westeros itself is tied, not just to the elements of both ice and fire (unlike Essos and (presumably) Sothyros), but that in Westeros, we tend not to find "pure" ice or "pure" fire---we constantly find ice and fire merging. Dorne isn't just a place of heat---as a desert, it's a place of extreme heat (fire) in the day, but simultaneously, it's a place of extreme cold (ice) at night. In the North, you find volcanic areas situated in places of extreme cold: Winterfell, Hardhome (presumably), etc. The Watch, whose members swear to be "the fire that burns against the cold", is stationed on a massive wall of ice.

We don't know exactly how "the song of ice and fire" fits in with the AA/PTWP prophecy(ies), but we can infer that Rhaegar had some reason to believe that the PTWP would in some way embody "the song of ice and fire". But if you think about it, any Targ would always need an outside "ice" source to fit the prophecy, but someone like Jon---a Stark---doesn't really need anything from Rhaegar to embody both ice and fire via his Stark parent alone. Look at where Winterfell is, where it has been for thousands and thousands of years: in a place of ice and fire. Any Stark of Winterfell could logically be said to embody both ice and fire, because Winterfell is a place of extreme heat situated in a place of extreme cold. "Winter is coming" is a motto, not just of winter, but of summer as well, because it embodies the dangers of winter, not just in winter, but in spring/summer/autumn (the times when it's necessary to prepare for winter---the times when "winter is coming" is most useful as a warning). We don't even need to look at Jon as a son of Rhaegar to have him embody both ice and fire, because Lyanna Stark of Winterfell would have embodied both elements all by herself. The Targaryens, as pure fire . . . kinda aren't necessary for a melding of ice and fire. The Starks already have both elements covered.

Jon already embodies both ice and fire in three ways without even bringing Rhaegar into the picture: as a son of Lyanna Stark of Winterfell (the icy castle built over volcanic hot springs) who was himself raised in Winterfell, as a member of the Watch ("the fire that burns against the cold" that's parked on a giant wall of ice), and as someone who was (probably) born in Dorne and "killed" in the North. Rhaegar and the fire-loving Targs are kind of hilariously superfluous to the whole "ice and fire" issue in Westeros, because an outside "fire" source was never actually lacking there, even long before the Targs even arrived.

I'm not saying I disagree with R+L=J at all. I'm saying that, if AA/PTWP in some way embodies "the song of ice and fire" in ancient prophecy----well, perhaps the point of the prophecy is not that it's about the Targs and the Starks, or even that it's about one family embodying one element and another family embodying another element. It could simply be saying that this person, as both ice and fire, cannot ever be a Targ. The Targs seemed to believe it was "all about them" . . . but they're one group that is inherently barred from embodying this prophecy, because as a group solely attached to fire. someone who identifies as a Targ can never be described as both fire and ice, certainly not in the way that a Stark (or even a Dornishman) could. In fact, notice how every person with a Targaryen parent that is also associated with ice---Maester Aemon, Bloodraven, and (probably) Jon---only associates with ice when he fails to bear the Targaryen name.

You really don´t like Targs, do you? <_<

Sometimes I hope (and I know I will probably never get my wish) that we will find out that the power of the Kings of Winter lay in the agreement with the Children of the Forest which stated that the Children will help Starks to maintain their power and to conquer other kingdoms in the North, and the Starks will return do some human sacrifices before the heart trees. We will also find out that the loyalty of the Northern Houses to the Starks which is embodied in the words "The North Remembers" in fact means that the Northern Houses "remember" the time when they were one by one forced to kneel to the unbeatable, bloodthirsty, human-sacrificing Stark warlords who got into the skin of other kings´ pets and then savage their children to death, they remember that it is essential to be loyal to the Starks, they just don´t remember why is that (because they are warg-demons and they signed the treaty with the devil/Children), it is just rooted in them. :P

No, I don´t really believe that. (Although, I would like to read the posts on this board after the aDoS would come out and this was true.) LOL

The Starks had longsword named Ice, their words are Winter is coming, they thrive during winter Brandon the Ice Eyes, anybody?), they generally act coldly toward people who are not friends and family, . . . The warm springs just prove they are humans, not White Walkers (the Heresy thread makes me unsure of this claim). Winterfell was almost certainly built on the place whre it was built because the springs were already there. What if the Cerwyns got there first? Would they be the fire in the equation, then?

The Starks are the closest family to Ice, the Targaryens the closest family to Fire. Jon is Water (kidding again), and he´s not a Stark because ancient Kings of Winter say so. :(

I hope he will find happiness with his newly discovered Targaryen family.

:P

This says person who likes both: Starks and Targs.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Actually, my favorite theory is that everyone, every where, has it wrong, and what happens, happens. :P Prophecy is a bitch, after all.

I really want to see Marwyn again.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One thing I don't get is how fire and ice are supposed to oppose each other. Fire melts ice, fire wins. I guess the counter-argument would be that fire burns itself out, at which point the water becomes ice again?

Of course, it's just symbolic, so maybe I'm being nitpicky.

"Nothing burns like the cold." B)

ETA: And obviously water (which is all ice really is) can extinguish fire.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Starks are the closest family to Ice, the Targaryens the closest family to Fire. Jon is Water (kidding again), and he´s not a Stark because ancient Kings of Winter say so. :(

I hope he will find happiness with his newly discovered Targaryen family.

:P

This says person who likes both: Starks and Targs.

As someone who 1. typically likes the Starks and 2. typically dislikes most of the Targs and 3. usually agrees with much of what Tze proposes, I have to agree that the Starks as ice and fire on their own is kind of a stretch.

[darrylzero]

Did you guys see this remark from the "Heresies" thread?

Jon, Dany, and Tyrion are all the third children of their fathers who killed their mothers in childbirth, so in this sense Jon, Dany, and Tyrion would be "Lightbringer" personified, "the dragon with three heads," the champions of R'hllor that set Westeros aflame.

Pretty wild, right? Of course, I don't much get the sense that Aerys really loved his wife...

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh dear, Tyrion as one head of the dragon. :( That would just be so . . . disappointing.

[darrylzero]

Oh dear, Tyrion as one head of the dragon. :( That would just be so . . . disappointing.

Well, for me, it's a lot less cheesy if we don't take the prophecies too literally. Discussions of dragon riders are reasonable, given what we're working with, but I've always had trouble imagining that feeling right.

On the other hand, if all this means is that prophecies talk about salvation coming from tragedy and things coming in threes, well, that's not really enough. So, somewhere in between, I guess.