Something just hit me about Theon

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Stannis and Theon are both irredeemable characters in my mind. Stannis because of Melisandre and killing Renly. Theon because of betraying Robb and what he did at Winterfell.

And what Ramsay did to him has broken him mentally and physically. I'd say he could be saved and make an epic hero comeback if he wasn't missing several toes and fingers. Not to mention its hinted at that he may have lost his manhood as well....

I think both will die.

you really think physical prowess is what makes someone a hero???

Theon is destined to do something awesome with or without his fingers and balls

EDIT: while we are at it i think he is way braver than me, i'm not sure if i would have courage to defy Boltons after several months in Bastard's clutches

[Ramsay Gimp]

Stannis and Theon are both irredeemable characters in my mind. Stannis because of Melisandre and killing Renly. Theon because of betraying Robb and what he did at Winterfell.

And what Ramsay did to him has broken him mentally and physically. I'd say he could be saved and make an epic hero comeback if he wasn't missing several toes and fingers. Not to mention its hinted at that he may have lost his manhood as well....

I think both will die.

How does assassinating an enemy war leader make Stannis "irredeemable"?

[Ser Giant]

Renly was assassinated because of his false claim to the iron throne, it wasnt just random brotherly slaughter.

on-topic, I think he maybe just hasnt gotten around to it yet, his next pov chapter will have his confession? Or maybe he thinks it's better for B and R that they stay fake-dead.

I honestly hope he dies as quickly as possible in Winds so George can focus on other characters. I also hope the only "redemption" he gets is when Asha flays the skin off Ramsay:-)

[Jory]

I don't think Stannis would like to have boys still alive - those Northmen with him are with him for two reasons - saving Arya (as seen in and outside of Winterfell) and avenging Robb (which is one of Davos' main arguments on the Merman's Court) - they don't give two shits about R'hllor or Stannis' claims on the Iron Throne

now imagine what would happen if suddenly they have living, legitimate, male heir of their recently betrayed and murdered king - do you think they would prefer Baratheon over the next King in the North???

Yes, because Stannis is going to prove himself worthy of their trust and their loyalty by restoring the Starks to their rightful seat.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

How does assassinating an enemy war leader make Stannis "irredeemable"?

Uhhh I dunno maybe because that was his brother and it wasn't fair? it was a underhanded plot done by someone who claims to be this upstanding moral guy who never breaks the rules.

Thats why he ultimately is irredeemable to ME. And I think he'll die by the end of the next book. Stannis is a boring character and over the course of the series he hasn't gotten any more interesting or likable. And the book has clearly made a point about how much weight he's lost and how he looks like a man on the verge of death.

He's a dead man walking. At this point I think he dies while fighting Ramsay.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Uhhh I dunno maybe because that was his brother and it wasn't fair? it was a underhanded plot done by someone who claims to be this upstanding moral guy who never breaks the rules.

Thats why he ultimately is irredeemable to ME. And I think he'll die by the end of the next book. Stannis is a boring character and over the course of the series he hasn't gotten any more interesting or likable. And the book has clearly made a point about how much weight he's lost and how he looks like a man on the verge of death.

He's a dead man walking. At this point I think he dies while fighting Ramsay.

Well boo hoo for Renly.

Stannis never claimed to be an "upstanding moral guy." He is just and dutiful, not particularly honorable or moral. Renly was a traitor in arms, and as King it was Stannis's duty to kill him. One arguably evil act of sorcery does not wash out the good things Stannis has done. People like Ramsay, Gregor, etc. are "irredeemable." Not people like Theon or Stannis. Besides, in the books it is never confirmed that he was in on the plot to kill Renly

And he is one of the most interesting characters in the books.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Yes, because Stannis is going to prove himself worthy of their trust and their loyalty by restoring the Starks to their rightful seat.

Thing is a bit more complicated than that, if they decide to crown Rickon, Stannis won't survive - even now Northmen outnumber his men 4:1, and it is mostly his men and horses that are freezing. If simply restoring Starks as Wardens of the North contents them - yaaay!!! for Stannis. Knowing Northmen and their devotion to Starks what do you think which scenario is more likely?

[mcb]

How does assassinating an enemy war leader make Stannis "irredeemable"?

Pretty much every time the word "kinslayer" is spoken, it is meant as the ultimate insult. Stannis belongs on the same shit list as Tyrion, only he's in powerful denial.

[Blisscraft]

Theon doesn't tell because information is power. His knowing about Bran and Rickon is the only power he has left to him.

[Blisscraft]

One more thing. The information about the Starks is a secret he shares with Ramsey.

[howland_reed]

This is my own personal desire, but I want to see Theon redeemed in front of Jon. I'm hoping that the two somehow eventually meet, and since Jon would almost undoubtedly resort to violence once he sees Theon for his betrayal, he spills the beans about Bran and Rickon's fate at that moment. Jon also would be one of the few who would actually believe him without evidence since part of him knows that Bran is still alive through his wolf dreams.

Of course, Jon would have to be revived before all this happens.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

This is my own personal desire, but I want to see Theon redeemed in front of Jon. I'm hoping that the two somehow eventually meet, and since Jon would almost undoubtedly resort to violence once he sees Theon for his betrayal, he spills the beans about Bran and Rickon's fate at that moment. Jon also would be one of the few who would actually believe him without evidence since part of him knows that Bran is still alive through his wolf dreams.

Of course, Jon would have to be revived before all this happens.

yeah, I would like him reunited with Jon in some manner

though they always despised each other they share a few things in common

[Winterfell is Burning]

Pretty much every time the word "kinslayer" is spoken, it is meant as the ultimate insult. Stannis belongs on the same shit list as Tyrion, only he's in powerful denial.

Well, for one thing, to me seems clear Stannis didn't know it was Melissandre that killed Renly in that conversation with Davos.

And anyway, Renly was killed during a war, not in ordinary circunstances. And of course, Renly fans like to ignore the fact he not only would have killed Stannis as well, but made jokes in public about it.

[mcb]

Well, for one thing, to me seems clear Stannis didn't know it was Melissandre that killed Renly in that conversation with Davos.

That's what I meant by "denial", especially after Mel reused the method on the castellan of Storm's End.

And anyway, Renly was killed during a war, not in ordinary circunstances. And of course, Renly fans like to ignore the fact he not only would have killed Stannis as well, but made jokes in public about it.

Well, then by all means, let him come clean: "True, my lords, I've slain my brother, but he'd kill me, too, and joke about it". Certainly the lords of Westeros would agree that under those circumstances it doesn't count as kinslaying. If he hadn't done anything wrong, why conceal it?

[Jory]

It may seem obvious to us, as readers, that the shadow that killed Cortnay obviously has a connection to the shadow that killed Renly and Stannis, why are you so dumb, but it doesn't really make sense to think that of him when all the reports he'd heard would've reported Brienne and Catelyn killing him. Just because he uses an assassin demon baby to kill a castellan doesn't mean he automatically knows that he used an assassin demon baby to kill Renly.

[Ferrous]

Kinslaying is a technical thing.

A person is not a kinslayer unless they killed or order the death of your kinsman yourself.

Since Stannis did not directly kill Renly or order it (though he has is suspicions) he isn't technically a kinslayer.

[gogorath]

I never got the impression that Theon really cared to live at this point. Not for his own sake, anyway.

[Annikina]

For how much I'd wish Theon dead - his (well, Reek's) PoV chapters give me the creeps - I also think he won't die just yet, not now that he is reunited with his sister and all. He will have to face Ramsay Bolton/Snow first. Also, I agree with the idea that he doesn't speak the truth 1) to preserve Jeyne-false-Arya 2) and because he's too terrified of Ramsay . And yes, he spilled the beans with Asha, but she barely recognized him; I seriously doubt she will believe (or even understand) a single word of his blabbering.

[IKE]

I'd like for Manderly or Glover get a conversation with Theon, they'd force a conversation about the Stark boys.. I don't think Theon will mention a peep elsewise.

Also, in a way, keeping the two thought dead is sort of way of protecting them. They've been given an exit from the game of thrones, Theon may be thinking part of his redemption is keeping them dead?

Not to mention if Manderly or Glover talk to him, they'd bring up Wex, whom I'm guessing Theon assumes is dead. It would be nice for Theon to get a little good news for once.

[CBroome1979]

As far as Renly being assassinated, their armies were going to clash the next day, so it was open war. Let's not forget the Blackfyre Rebellion was all about kinslaying...in the case of kin revolting against the 'rightful' claimant, it's not taboo to defend your claim with lethal force. Whether or not Stannis knows about the shadow baby is not material, to me. It's simple tactics...if he can eliminate the leader of the enemy, he can prevent his future army from being reduced in a pointless battle and focus his newly acquired, fresh assets on his objective, King's Landing. One of those ethics questions...if the objective is to defeat the enemy leadership, does the method matter? Renly certainly didn't mind the fact that he vastly outnumbered his brother and surely would annihilate him on the field of battle.

Stannis' redemption seems just as real as Theon's. If he hasn't changed his attitude, he has at least acknowledged that he needs the support and love of the common people in order to secure his throne. He obviously sweetened his speech enough to entice the Northern Clan Lords to his cause.

About Theon...I think he avoids the axe, for a little while at least. Too much going on with the Kingsmoot Recall for him to just lose his head...that whole storyline would be wasted.