Something just hit me about Theon

[iamthedave]

Presumably they have someone left at White Harbour who can get him to the vicinity of Winterfell (can the fleet travel all the way up the river?), and if Manderly has some way of communicating with the people on the outside (e.g. via the Umber brothers) I'm sure something can be arranged.

Much of this has probably happened already offscreen. I doubt we're going to see Davos finding Osha and Rickon and their adventures on their way back to Manderly's people except maybe in brief Davos-flashbacks.

Winterfell's inland quite a bit, a point Asha made to Theon about why he could not hold it while she could hold Deepwood Motte. I imagine Davos will have to bring Rickon overland just the same way that Manderly took his army overland. Going to Skagos by boat, then back to White Harbour by boat to confirm you did the job, then go to Winterfell (or near it) by boat, seems like too many steps and too many risks. No way is he just going to 'turn up'. This is Martin: we should be looking forward to hefty descriptions of boating, and shenanigans on Skagos before he appears.

[DurararaFTW]

Winterfell's inland quite a bit, a point Asha made to Theon about why he could not hold it while she could hold Deepwood Motte. I imagine Davos will have to bring Rickon overland just the same way that Manderly took his army overland. Going to Skagos by boat, then back to White Harbour by boat to confirm you did the job, then go to Winterfell (or near it) by boat, seems like too many steps and too many risks. No way is he just going to 'turn up'. This is Martin: we should be looking forward to hefty descriptions of boating, and shenanigans on Skagos before he appears.

I'm sure he'll go straight to Eastwatch-By-Sea and by thrown into the situation at the Wall before going to Stannis.

[Jolene Brown]

As long as Sansa is accused of regicide, her claim seems tenuous - she will probably be attainted and stripped of any claim, just like Edmure Tully and the Blackfish were. And we see how Stannis views her claim... he doesn't take it seriously at all.

I want Theon to be saved from execution badly, but I do wonder how much of an argument it is that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon... just two completely different, equally innocent children. I mean, is that much of a defense? I assume Ramsay did the actual killing, but Theon was deeply involved. On the other hand, we've seen that Stannis's morals are flexible when it suits him.

[Mugwump]

GRRM only kills major characters when it moves the plot forward. I don't see how Theon's death does that. What's the point of making him the most significant character of DoD just to kill him off early in WoW?

Some sort of redemption arc is planned. I like the idea best of Theon as a member of the Night's Watch, as Jon really needs a lieutenant, and the portrayal of Theon as a tactical genius with no leadership skills can't be accidental. He is probably a eunuch anyway.

Also likely is Theon as instrumental to the resolution of the Iron Islands arc. There was a big tell in the last Asha chapter, where Asha realizes the Kingsmoot could be revisited because Theon wasn't there as a claimant, and he had the best claim.

Lots of potential for Theon.

[mcb]

GRRM only kills major characters when it moves the plot forward. I don't see how Theon's death does that. What's the point of making him the most significant character of DoD just to kill him off early in WoW?

Some sort of redemption arc is planned.

He went through purgatory. He saved Jeyne Poole. In that he's achieved some form of redemption, and I won't be neither surprised, nor disappointed if that's all he can get. I really don't expect him to find the Holy Grail. Now he may tell the truth about Bran and Rickon, and then off with his head. Rest in peace, Reek.

[Wellspring]

Well...I think the revelation that the princes of winterfell are alive might lead the Northmen to abandon Stannis' cause

I don't think this will happen. I think you're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

Theon's secret isn't nearly so secret as he believes. The blame falls, naturally, on Ramsay's reckless stupidity. Remember when Bran and the Reeds were making their way north? They received hospitality from an un-named member of House Liddle, who clearly recognized them. And he knew the truth already! Ramsay had been sending riders up and down the Kingsroad "looking for dead men", and tipping his hand that the Stark boys were alive and at large. Even assuming the Liddles were somehow the only ones to figure this out, and even if the Liddle Bran met never told their kin, Stannis is riding with the mountain clans right now, which includes the Liddles. It's possible that very guy is in Stannis's host.

What I think really has happened is that lots of Northmen know that the Stark boys are alive. They're keeping quiet to protect the secret. Hell, they're probably pushing so hard for Theon's immediate execution to keep him from spilling the beans.

Those riders Ramsay sent gave away another secret as well, just by being Boltons: that they're somehow in on the treason against the Starks. The Lannisters showering honors on the Boltons just confirms it (and of course, this was Tywin's plan... part letting the Boltons alienate the North over a long winter so Tyrion and his Stark bride could waltz in during spring to supplant them).

If Stannis finds out, I suspect that there will be a Connington moment: reveal the Big Secret, only to have the lords glance at one another while Stannis realizes that the only person who didn't know, was him. The Northmen support Stannis because he opposes the Boltons and Lannisters and Greyjoys, not because he's their One True King.

GRRM only kills major characters when it moves the plot forward. I don't see how Theon's death does that. What's the point of making him the most significant character of DoD just to kill him off early in WoW?

Some sort of redemption arc is planned. I like the idea best of Theon as a member of the Night's Watch, as Jon really needs a lieutenant, and the portrayal of Theon as a tactical genius with no leadership skills can't be accidental. He is probably a eunuch anyway.

Also likely is Theon as instrumental to the resolution of the Iron Islands arc. There was a big tell in the last Asha chapter, where Asha realizes the Kingsmoot could be revisited because Theon wasn't there as a claimant, and he had the best claim.

Lots of potential for Theon.

Personally, I think Theon should die. He's paid for his crimes and then some. Crippled, disfigured, probably castrated, he's a shell of a man. After torment like his, a quick, clean death would be merciful.

But I totally agree with your analysis and that GRRM isn't done with him yet. You've got a great point.

I do find it odd that Asha is pressing Stannis for a merciful death for Theon, when he's so friggin' essential to her possible return to the Iron Islands. I suspect that this is Asha being Asha-- leading with her heart and to hell with the consequences. It's not that she's stupid, it's that she's impatient and impulsive.

[Jolene Brown]

I think Asha has some form of plan, possibly... I wonder if by telling Stannis to execute Theon in front of the heart tree in the weirwood, she is trying to get him away from the northmen to a more isolated spot where they may be able to pull yet another death fake-out. More interesting is the question of what Bran/Bloodraven's plan is... why do THEY want him at the weirwood?

Where is the Bran POV where he meets with the Liddle clan member? I would like to re-read it. It's in ASOS somewhere, I assume?

[Payme]

I think it's possible he's holding his tongue to protect Bran and Rickon... If no one knows they're alive, then no one looks for them!

Now, i said i think it's "possible", not that i think that is it... That's just the only thing that jumps out to me besides the obvious "what good would it really do, seeing he still killed two innocent boys?", or "would anyone even believe him?"..

BUT if true, and he's keeping it secret to protect the little heirs, there's Theon's redemption...

[alienarea]

Honestly, I'd rather have something just hitting Theon.

[Maia]

I do find it odd that Asha is pressing Stannis for a merciful death for Theon, when he's so friggin' essential to her possible return to the Iron Islands.

How so? It was a good idea to use him, but that was before she knew what has been done to him. Ironborn aren't going to follow a crippled eunuch.

I suspect that this is Asha being Asha-- leading with her heart and to hell with the consequences. It's not that she's stupid, it's that she's impatient and impulsive.

Huh? Asha is one of the more cerebral characters in the series, certainly more so than her entire family! Given how terrible death by burning is (and how she could observe it in detail and feared it for herself) and that she somewhat cares about Theon, it is only logical to push for a quick death for him.

Frankly, I'd be disappointed if GRRM continues to drag out Theon's story. It was great in ADWD and he is going to be Boltons' downfall in TWoW, but it is at the point where it can satisfyingly end. There are so many other story-lines and PoVs that need attention and have more to offer, both for understanding of the past and for future potential.

[Aluminum Link]

I'm pretty sure Davos will turn up at Stannis' camp himself alive and well very early in The Winds of Winter. He's been out of view for far too long.

Indeed. Infact, perhaps we've already seen Davos in ADwD as the Hooded Man in Winterfell, there to inform Manderly of his success. It's a bit coincidental that immediately after the Hooded Man appears, the Freys get provoked by Manderly in a manner that results in troops being marched out of Winterfell and toward Stannis. Also coincidental that the Freys fall into a trap outside the gates but not the Manderly men.

[Aluminum Link]

Winterfell's inland quite a bit, a point Asha made to Theon about why he could not hold it while she could hold Deepwood Motte. I imagine Davos will have to bring Rickon overland just the same way that Manderly took his army overland.

It is inland, but Asha was specifically talking about being able to hold it from the West coast, where the Iron Islands are. From the East Coast (White Harbor) you can get very close to Winterfell by the White Knife (assuming it is passable the whole way).

[Trinket2]

I want Theon to be saved from execution badly, but I do wonder how much of an argument it is that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon... just two completely different, equally innocent children. I mean, is that much of a defense? I assume Ramsay did the actual killing, but Theon was deeply involved. On the other hand, we've seen that Stannis's morals are flexible when it suits him.

Going by the sample chapter I think Asha has a plan to save him, or she wouldn't have tried to persuade Stannis to execute Theon underneath a weirwood tree.

If it was just about avoiding him burning, it would make more sense to appeal to have him given to the drowned god as he is after all an Ironborn and they're all right next to a source of water. The fact that she goes for the weirwood tree makes me think she is upp to something sneaky.

[oscarinfw]

I think Asha has some form of plan, possibly... I wonder if by telling Stannis to execute Theon in front of the heart tree in the weirwood, she is trying to get him away from the northmen to a more isolated spot where they may be able to pull yet another death fake-out. More interesting is the question of what Bran/Bloodraven's plan is... why do THEY want him at the weirwood?

Where is the Bran POV where he meets with the Liddle clan member? I would like to re-read it. It's in ASOS somewhere, I assume?

Page 334 of ASOS.

Quoting the Liddle:

"....flayed men ride the Kingsroad asking after strangers."....

"The Bastard's Boys, aye...and paying good silver for wolfskins...and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead".

While glancing at Bran and Summer

[mcb]

Going by the sample chapter I think Asha has a plan to save him, or she wouldn't have tried to persuade Stannis to execute Theon underneath a weirwood tree.

If it was just about avoiding him burning, it would make more sense to appeal to have him given to the drowned god as he is after all an Ironborn and they're all right next to a source of water.

A request Stannis would have absolutely no reason to grant.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I don't think this will happen. I think you're missing a piece of the puzzle here.

Theon's secret isn't nearly so secret as he believes. The blame falls, naturally, on Ramsay's reckless stupidity. Remember when Bran and the Reeds were making their way north? They received hospitality from an un-named member of House Liddle, who clearly recognized them. And he knew the truth already! Ramsay had been sending riders up and down the Kingsroad "looking for dead men", and tipping his hand that the Stark boys were alive and at large. Even assuming the Liddles were somehow the only ones to figure this out, and even if the Liddle Bran met never told their kin, Stannis is riding with the mountain clans right now, which includes the Liddles. It's possible that very guy is in Stannis's host.

What I think really has happened is that lots of Northmen know that the Stark boys are alive. They're keeping quiet to protect the secret. Hell, they're probably pushing so hard for Theon's immediate execution to keep him from spilling the beans.

Those riders Ramsay sent gave away another secret as well, just by being Boltons: that they're somehow in on the treason against the Starks. The Lannisters showering honors on the Boltons just confirms it (and of course, this was Tywin's plan... part letting the Boltons alienate the North over a long winter so Tyrion and his Stark bride could waltz in during spring to supplant them).

If Stannis finds out, I suspect that there will be a Connington moment: reveal the Big Secret, only to have the lords glance at one another while Stannis realizes that the only person who didn't know, was him. The Northmen support Stannis because he opposes the Boltons and Lannisters and Greyjoys, not because he's their One True King.

Personally, I think Theon should die. He's paid for his crimes and then some. Crippled, disfigured, probably castrated, he's a shell of a man. After torment like his, a quick, clean death would be merciful.

But I totally agree with your analysis and that GRRM isn't done with him yet. You've got a great point.

I do find it odd that Asha is pressing Stannis for a merciful death for Theon, when he's so friggin' essential to her possible return to the Iron Islands. I suspect that this is Asha being Asha-- leading with her heart and to hell with the consequences. It's not that she's stupid, it's that she's impatient and impulsive.

This. I think Theon's secrets and deceptions have a larger literary purpose in terms of his psychological transformation and redemption arcs than a real plot advancement purpose.

Theon's "secrets" aren't really secrets. In addition to the points Wellspring makes above, we know from Davos's POV in ADWD that Manderly is aware of Ramsay's (not Theon's) sacking and burning of WF, AND the Bolton's part in the RW. The Arya deception is the only thing he doesn't mention. But, as the always brilliant poster Tze points out in another thread, Manderly requests "Brave Dany Flint" at the wedding, a song about a girl who isn't what she seems. It's possible that the North already knows every "secret" Theon keeps.

[Jolene Brown]

It's a bit sad in a way - will the North give a crap about Stannis, truly, once they have used him to unseat the Boltons? I wonder. They seem quite indifferent to the destruction of his southern knights/lord/forces, which - however douchey they may be personality-wise - are the people who have been with him all along and sacrificed on his behalf. I sense a win the battle, lose the war situation coming for him. Even Manderlay - does he intend to support Stannis in the north against the boltons and to put a stark in winterfell, yes - but is he going to march with him on King's landing to put him on the Iron Throne? I have my doubts. Maybe if he truly hates the Lannisters enough. I guess if Justin Massey gets the 20000 sellswords, it won't matter.

Edit: It's funny, in the end Theon was just another pawn who thought he was a player, wasn't he? And even the people who hate him most know that. He has all the contempt, none of the respect that the Tywins of the world get.

[aryagonnakill]

Indeed. Infact, perhaps we've already seen Davos in ADwD as the Hooded Man in Winterfell, there to inform Manderly of his success. It's a bit coincidental that immediately after the Hooded Man appears, the Freys get provoked by Manderly in a manner that results in troops being marched out of Winterfell and toward Stannis. Also coincidental that the Freys fall into a trap outside the gates but not the Manderly men.

a good theory which i find very possible. We know Mance hid in plain sight, all other POV's I can think of are accounted for or far away, with the acception of Aeron, some people have suggested the blackfish. While anythings possible Davos seems more likely.

[Florent Vixen]

He's broken and still mentally confused. He just recently recalled

his name is Theon. If he's going in and out as Reek he only

knows what Reek knows.

He's much more terrified of being back in Ramsay's

hands than he is of being exccuted by Stannis.

He'd prefer death and the part of him that feels

remorse thinks he deserves it.

Someone who has been through the sort of trauma

he has, the extreme physical and mental torture

will never really feel safe again.

He may think he's protecting Bran and Rickon if there's

a chance they've survived. If Stannis finds them

and Stannis is defeated then Ramsay gets his hands

on them.

I think Theon will probably die. I don't think he will

ever recover mentally enough or is physically able

to join the Nightwatch. I think it's more likely he will

sacrifice himself in some way.

I never liked Theon and he did some very bad stuff

but no one deserved the horrendous abuse he suffered

from Ramsay(except maybe Ramsay or the Mountain)

so I would be fine if GRRM has Theon be the one who

kills Ramsay.

I don't think Stannis is going to execute him and I

agree Asha has something up her skirts.

[Trinket2]

A request Stannis would have absolutely no reason to grant.

No more than he has any reason to grant chopping of Theon's head underneath the weirwood instead of burning him, no. But I think we can assume that's what will happen. It's a plot device to save Theon.