A crackpot theory on R'hllor

[Aeryes Stark]

This is not a true theory, I am just throwing out a possibility.

We all know that there are several different religions in Westeros, but we are not really sure which one is the real one. But what we do know is that R'hllor definitively has power. With resurrections, healing shadow babies, and visions in the fire, the lord of light has a good track record in proving that he is the real god.

But what if R'hllor wasn't really the real "god" but the devil. The force that is supposed to counter the real god(s), (which I believe is the old gods).

R'hllor's powers have a cost. With every shadow, Stannis has become a weaker person, with every resurrection, the less human the undead person becomes.

What I am saying is that the Red Priests are Martin's form of devil worshipers, deceiving the world into thinking he is the one true god.

What do you think?

[Arkash]

And why would there be any REAL god, and why would there be a Devil ?

I am myself a total atheist, so I just consider that all religions of Westeros and the world are all fake, and there are only placebos effects... as for R'hllor powers, I would just give it to the magic, not the religion.

[Aeryes Stark]

You see that is why it is a crackpot theory, I am just throwing out a possibility

[Fightbringer]

We all know that there are several different religions in Westeros, but we are not really sure which one is the real one. But what we do know is that R'hllor definitively has power. With resurrections, healing shadow babies, and visions in the fire, the lord of light has a good track record in proving that he is the real god.

But what if R'hllor wasn't really the real "god" but the devil. The force that is supposed to counter the real god(s), (which I believe is the old gods).

R'hllor's powers have a cost. With every shadow, Stannis has become a weaker person, with every resurrection, the less human the undead person becomes.

What I am saying is that the Red Priests are Martin's form of devil worshipers, deceiving the world into thinking he is the one true god.

What do you think?

Interesting, I really believe that Martin wont reveal everything about r'hllor or any other religions(other than the old gods which has kind of been revealed) my belief is that martins creating a universe where all the religions seem to work in some way. The Red Gods supposed power could just be due to how the red priests seem to have mastery of magic, and not because of r'hllor existence.

And why would there be any REAL god, and why would there be a Devil ?

I am myself a total atheist, so I just consider that all religions of Westeros and the world are all fake, and there are only placebos effects... as for R'hllor powers, I would just give it to the magic, not the religion.

That is without a doubt one of the most stupid comments i've ever seen here. Why would you project your views on one thing in real life onto a fictional story?Its like me saying i dont believe orcs exist, therefore they dont exist in Lord of the Rings. Even if there isnt a god in the real world, that has no bearing on the world of ice and fire. Its a fantasy story, and the existence of a God would make the story better, so GRRM would put it in. He's an atheist himself i think, doesnt stop him Gods existing in his fantasy world

[Jem]

All we really know is that some people apparently have some power to do supernatural things and that those people attribute these powers to an entity that they call R'hllor. There isn't any proof that this entity called R'hllor actually exists and, if it does exist, that it actually does create the supernatural occurrences that people attribute to it.

It is the same as in the real world. People attribute things that they don't understand to 'god' or whatever.

[Arkash]

Okay ! But I agree with you on one point: there are weird powers among the Red God believers...

We know the Old Gods are in fact the skinchanger and children of the forest and their old magic.

I assume the Seven is just based on a total lie... looks too much like old Inquisition...

The Drowned God might be linked to the Others or to Krakens that really existed (exists ?) deified by Iron-born...

But R'hllor...

[Fat Mac]

Interesting ideas. But I view religion in ASoIaF to simply be concepts people can rally behind to try to explain the unexplainable (magic, for instance)

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

This is not a true theory, I am just throwing out a possibility.

We all know that there are several different religions in Westeros, but we are not really sure which one is the real one. But what we do know is that R'hllor definitively has power. With resurrections, healing shadow babies, and visions in the fire, the lord of light has a good track record in proving that he is the real god.

But what if R'hllor wasn't really the real "god" but the devil. The force that is supposed to counter the real god(s), (which I believe is the old gods).

R'hllor's powers have a cost. With every shadow, Stannis has become a weaker person, with every resurrection, the less human the undead person becomes.

What I am saying is that the Red Priests are Martin's form of devil worshipers, deceiving the world into thinking he is the one true god.

What do you think?

There aren't any gods, only magic and superstitions. If R'hllor is powerful because of resurrections, what about the Others? They resurrect as well.

[deleted01]

There aren't any gods, only magic and superstitions. If R'hllor is powerful because of resurrections, what about the Others? They resurrect as well.

This.

I too think there are no gods, just like there are no 'true' gods in the real world. How do we know which god is the 'right' god? We don't, we can't, and I think it's the same in ASOIAF. R'hllor does seem to have some power, but in ADWD, I believe Mel reveals that a lot of it is down to tricks? I think magic exists, just not the power of an all-seeing, all-knowing deity :dunno:

ETA: On the theory that R'hllor is the 'devil' or 'bad force', I'm inclined to agree. Or, should I say, the followers of R'hllor are the 'bad forces'. There have been plenty of discussions about how the Others aren't as evil as everyone thinks, but if I'm quite honest, I'm not sure where I stand on it all.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

This.

I too think there are no gods, just like there are no 'true' gods in the real world. How do we know which god is the 'right' god? We don't, we can't, and I think it's the same in ASOIAF. R'hllor does seem to have some power, but in ADWD, I believe Mel reveals that a lot of it is down to tricks? I think magic exists, just not the power of an all-seeing, all-knowing deity :dunno:

ETA: On the theory that R'hllor is the 'devil' or 'bad force', I'm inclined to agree. Or, should I say, the followers of R'hllor are the 'bad forces'. There have been plenty of discussions about how the Others aren't as evil as everyone thinks, but if I'm quite honest, I'm not sure where I stand on it all.

The Others kill all warm blooded creatures that they come across, so I cannot see the Great Other being any better than R'hllor . It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[deleted01]

The Others kill all warm blooded creatures that they come across, so I cannot see the Great Other being any better than R'hllor . It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Yeah it definitely will be interesting. At the moment, I really don't know, I haven't researched the history of the CotF and stuff enough to understand it all fully I guess.

[Howling Mad]

Whatever you do don't draw back the curtain the Great Oz won't like that :devil:

[Kittyhat]

And why would there be any REAL god, and why would there be a Devil ?

I am myself a total atheist, so I just consider that all religions of Westeros and the world are all fake, and there are only placebos effects... as for R'hllor powers, I would just give it to the magic, not the religion.

So you're one of these?

I mean, don't get me wrong -- I'm an atheist myself, albeit a "weak" or "negative" atheist. But seriously, when you've got magic staring you in the face, and apparently the only people who can use it say they're getting it from some kind of higher being or force, just laughing them off is not wise, and it's certainly not a scientific approach. It's an ignorant response as mired in the behavior of the theism (in this case, "I want not to believe!") as that of the most devout fundamentalists.

Their claims at least bear investigation, as they've already provided extraordinary evidence. And ... this part is important: they're apparently the only ones who can do what they're doing.

Now that said, I definitely wouldn't take everything they say about it at face value. There may well be a R'hllor, but as the OP suggests, even if it does exist, that being may not be one with benevolent intentions toward humanity. Or maybe there's not a R'hllor, and it's just their way of understanding their power ... but under these circumstances, just assuming this and calling the matter settled is stupid.

In fact, I've also long had my own little pet theory that R'hllor is every bit as bad as the Others. Freezing is deadly to humankind, to be sure ... but so is burning. R'hllor may well stand in opposition to the Others without in turn being actually any more "good" or any less terrible and dangerous itself.

[Kittyhat]

All we really know is that some people apparently have some power to do supernatural things and that those people attribute these powers to an entity that they call R'hllor. There isn't any proof that this entity called R'hllor actually exists and, if it does exist, that it actually does create the supernatural occurrences that people attribute to it.

It is the same as in the real world. People attribute things that they don't understand to 'god' or whatever.

It's really not the same. In the real world, you don't have a tiny select group of people who can do fantastic magical stuff that no one else can do, and they all attribute it to the one same entity that they say is the source of their fantastic powers.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

I am resurrecting this as I have the same theory as OP and wanted to see if there was already a discussion about it.

It's really not the same. In the real world, you don't have a tiny select group of people who can do fantastic magical stuff that no one else can do, and they all attribute it to the one same entity that they say is the source of their fantastic powers.

I totally agree with this and I think it has been proven beyond a doubt that the red priests do have real powers to do some crazy intense shit! From Mel's POV it seemed to me that she wasn't personally particularly evil but that she believes she is acting for the greater good. I don't know what her ultimate goal is but I think that the R'hllorites have access to a lot of knowledge regarding the AA prophecy which has not been shared with us readers. That's why I find their chapters so interesting. In any case ... the powers R'hllorites have sound like dark magic - necromancy, burning things, glamours etc. IMO you don't have to be evil to be a red Priest but I think that the source from which the power is derived is evil/has ill intent toward humanity and I think it exacts a price from the wielder so that even with the best of intentions they end up committing dark acts.

I posted this in another thread but it's the basic outline of my R'hllor theory. Please, if you have anything to add or clear up then go hard!

<<snip>>

In any case, my personal theory on the R'hllorites is that R'hllor is actually a sort of demon (perhaps many demons?) or malevolent entity (rather than a god) who can be conjured by those who possess the knowledge and power.

From what I have seen of R'hllor he is nor the god of light heat and life but a master of the shadows. You cannot have light without shadow! Mel goes on and on about him being good and we don't see any contradiction in her POVs but birthing murderous shadow babies and using rubies to bend people to your will don't seem to me to be powers that a benevolent god would grant his followers. Fire is every bit as destructive as ice and Asshai is often described as a place of shadows ...

Sorry slight thread derailment but I thought it was interesting. I also find it interesting that Mirri Maz Duur learned in Asshai and the magic she used was undoubtedly dark.

ETA - of course all of this fear of Asshai'i could be attributed to the fact that they use magic (regardless of whether it is for good or bad) and this makes them seem scary, evil or 'the spawn of shadows' but it seems to go deeper than that IMO.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

So R'hllor is just another manifestation of the great other and they are both working to get to AA and harness his power so that their destruction of y'know... everything can go ahead..? But the red priests believe they are fighting the shadow. Sorry my thoughts are a bit jumbled at the moment but at least I know what I mean haha.

[Budj]

What if Quaithe (sp?) is the red religions Bloodraven / greenseer equivalent?

[Davos' fingertip]

i agree, the way Rhllor works is with sacrifices and evil magic. I've always thought of him as more of a 'devil', but then there's the 'Storm god' who is supposed to be the bad one.

[Fwaatcha]

*Spoiler if you havent read all books*

In a Storm of Swords there is a good description of Rhillor

Re-read the chapter POV of Davos where he is in prison in Dragonstone

Mel visits Davos tells him the all about why Rhillor is good and who is bad (The Other)

In this description she speaks of Rhillor as the light, the fire , the shadow maker.

Also in this description she tells of Rhillor's adversary (Yin/Yang) (Light/Dark)

She goes on to say that they,the red priests,do not name him only that he is known as "The Other"

Good/Evil is only a point of view term to begin with but if we are to believe good is light then dark must be evil

Just another tidbit here relating to Rhillor's opposite as "The Other"

Anytime an "Other" is around everything gets colder and light becomes more dim.(Re-read the chapter where Sam slays "The Other:)

"The Other" being long forgotten is why the wall was put up in the first place.(also spoken about by Lord Mormont in his deathchapter to Sam Tarly)

This I believe is a prelude to the real story of "The Song of Ice and Fire". It is not about real weather terms,clans,or even dragons.

You will see that in the end this epic storyline of books will end with the clash of Rhillor and "The Other" being your main story line,with all the other POVs' being abstract storytelling.

[DaughterOfThe9Moons]

What if Quaithe (sp?) is the red religions Bloodraven / greenseer equivalent?

I love this idea!

This I believe is a prelude to the real story of "The Song of Ice and Fire". It is not about real weather terms,clans,or even dragons.

You will see that in the end this epic storyline of books will end with the clash of Rhillor and "The Other" being your main story line,with all the other POVs' being abstract storytelling.

I don't think the Other's are R'hllor's counterparts, they may be minions of the great Other but as yet I am not convinced that R'hllor is any less evil than the great Other supposedly is. I'm also not sure that a battle between R'hllor and the great Other is the main point of the story, we see constrasts between fire and ice throughout every book not just in R'hllor and the Others and GRRM has spent precious little time fleshing out the story behind the threat beyond the wall. Perhaps the clash between the two gods/demons/immortal sorcerers or whatever they are will be at the climax of the series but for me the main story line is in the lives of the characters and how they interweave with each other. Damn it GRRM just finish the series already!

*Spoiler if you havent read all books*

In a Storm of Swords there is a good description of Rhillor

Re-read the chapter POV of Davos where he is in prison in Dragonstone

Mel visits Davos tells him the all about why Rhillor is good and who is bad (The Other)

In this description she speaks of Rhillor as the light, the fire , the shadow maker.

Also in this description she tells of Rhillor's adversary (Yin/Yang) (Light/Dark)

She goes on to say that they,the red priests,do not name him only that he is known as "The Other"

Good/Evil is only a point of view term to begin with but if we are to believe good is light then dark must be evil

I don't think this can be taken as the definitive description of R'hllor. Mel has every reason to lie to Davos in order to convince him that R'hllor is good as she knows he is able to influence Stannis. It would be much easier for her were Davos to cooperate. Just because Mel says it, doesn't mean it's true! And even if Mel believes what she says, it is possible that she has been fooled into thinking that R'hllor is good when he is actually evil. I have already explained that even if R'hllor is represented by fire, fire is not a benevolent, friendly force in and of itself. Fire is destructive and is benificial only when carefully controlled. I don't know for sure but I really don't think R'hllor is a force for good!