Was Ned Stark stupid?

[FuzzyJAM]

Well. No where does Ned say or think that his reasoning for supporting Stannis is that Stannis means to press his claim no matter what the numbers.

Well Ned knows Renly has some relationship with the Tyrells, from the picture of Margery Renly showed him. Those are questions Ned could have asked Renly instead of dismissing him.

Renly and Petyr both suggested that Ned act as regent as Robert wanted. That prevents the Lannisters from attacking. Because they're still on throne but also makes Joffrey a hostage. No one said anything about keeping Joffrey on the throne. I think the implication from Renly is that the Tyrells would be brought into the fold and that is the explicit statement from Petyr who suggests getting rid of Stannis and then exposing the incest. Supporting Stannis is the only scenario that guarantees war because he will not yield and the Tyrells will not support Stannis.

Well now you're trying to have your cake and eat it.

Was Ned stupid because his morality was ridiculous in leading him to value honour over peace in his decision making or was he stupid because he didn't realise he was making such a decision? Argue one or the other, not both.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Well now you're trying to have your cake and eat it.

Was Ned stupid because his morality was ridiculous in leading him to value honour over peace in his decision making or was he stupid because he didn't realise he was making such a decision? Argue one or the other, not both.

Well I'm not sure if he realized it but he was warned that a vote for Stannis was a vote for war. So if he doesn't realize it that's evidence of poor mental faculties. And if he does realize it and his moral code allows him to cause a war or make a war much more likely to occur for the sake of the choosing one brother over another then that is indicative of a lack of introspection and evidence of poor mental faculties.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I don't have the quotes, but doesn't Cersei remark that Robert died before she had time to take care of his brothers?

no she wants to get rid of Robert so that she has a free hand to move against Renly who's bringing margery Tyrell to court to replace Cersei and Stannis who knows about her incest babies.

The comment about her wanting to assassinate him in the melee obviously wasn't true and there's no reason for Ned to take it as gospel truth.

Oh. I don't know. It seemed plausible to me. If it weren't true why would Cersei forbid Robert to fight in the meelee its not like she cares about him.

Robert is with his brother and the Kingsguard he respects the most, the risk of him dying was quite small and as Baristan remarks he failed to protect the King. Not a risk Ned should of took certainly, but he also wanted to give Cersei enough time to flee King's Landing.

What could is Barristan going to do if the Mountain pops out from the behind a tree? Or if they use poison? Barristan is only useful again incompetent, physical assailants.

[dtones520]

Also, if Ned's promise to Lyanna was to protect Jon's identity, then him blurting out his parentage to save his ass would go against everything Ned Stark was. Ned wouldn't ever break the promise he made to his sister in her dying words.

[Jayaris]

no she wants to get rid of Robert so that she has a free hand to move against Renly who's bringing margery Tyrell to court to replace Cersei and Stannis who knows about her incest babies. Oh. I don't know. It seemed plausible to me. If it weren't true why would Cersei forbid Robert to fight in the meelee its not like she cares about him. What could is Barristan going to do if the Mountain pops out from the behind a tree? Or if they use poison? Barristan is only useful again incompetent, physical assailants.

Surely you realize plausible isn't enough to convince Ned Stark?

To humiliate him?

Ned tells her when he is already on his hunting trip, I suppose that Cersei could have dispatched The Mountain to assassinate him - But, obviously Ned doesn't consider this to be a possibility. As far as poison goes there's no way to avoid that risk whilst also trying to protect the children.

[MagnusPrime]

LLL was he warned by Petyr or the council entire?

and bloody hell there was already somewhat a war going on between 3 of the 7 kingdoms anyway. all that happened afterwards was that the Iron Islands, Reach, and Stormlands also went to war while Dorne and the Vale just chilled on the sidelines. War was a long time in coming just as the fall of the Targs were just one slight too far in coming.

[Jayaris]

Well I'm not sure if he realized it but he was warned that a vote for Stannis was a vote for war. So if he doesn't realize it that's evidence of poor mental faculties. And if he does realize it and his moral code allows him to cause a war or make a war much more likely to occur for the sake of the choosing one brother over another then that is indicative of a lack of introspection and evidence of poor mental faculties.

Petyr suggests he makes amends with the Lannisters and marry his children to their children and if Joffrey becomes a problem to replace him with Renly, it's not a choice of Renly over Stannis. Ned refuses this based on his inability to forgive the Lannisters crimes against him.

Renly gives him an ultimatum to kidnap the children, which he doesn't want to do because Robert isn't dead yet and then he runs away.

He doesn't think, well I'll choose Stannis and cause a massive war.

His plan is

Buy the City Guards out

Take control of Kings Landing

Have Stannis move all his forces to King's Landing

Hand over the crown

Go back to Winterfell

Who's to say if he had got the City Guard that it wouldn't of worked?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Surely you realize plausible isn't enough to convince Ned Stark?

Oh. Ned is clearly convinced. He thinks the Lannisters are evil from the get go and they already assassinated his foster father.

To humiliate him?

Well that doesn't really humiliate him. He'll just ignore her and fight in the melee

Ned tells her when he is already on his hunting trip, I suppose that Cersei could have dispatched The Mountain to assassinate him - But, obviously Ned doesn't consider this to be a possibility. As far as poison goes there's no way to avoid that risk whilst also trying to protect the children.

Right, apparently Ned doesn't consider anything a possibility. That's why he's and idiot.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Petyr suggests he makes amends with the Lannisters and marry his children to their children and if Joffrey becomes a problem to replace him with Renly, it's not a choice of Renly over Stannis. Ned refuses this based on his inability to forgive the Lannisters crimes against him.

Renly gives him an ultimatum to kidnap the children, which he doesn't want to do because Robert isn't dead yet and then he runs away.

He doesn't think, well I'll choose Stannis and cause a massive war.

His plan is

Buy the City Guards out

Take control of Kings Landing

Have Stannis move all his forces to King's Landing

Hand over the crown

Go back to Winterfell

Who's to say if he had got the City Guard that it wouldn't of worked?

Every lord in the 7 kingdoms? Stannis has no man power. He could've landed in Kingslanding with all of his banner men at the end of aGoT. Salladhor Saan tries to get Stannis to do this. But Stannis and Davos tell him they could never hold Kingslanding. Dragonstone only has tiny islands sworn to it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

LLL was he warned by Petyr or the council entire?

and bloody hell there was already somewhat a war going on between 3 of the 7 kingdoms anyway. all that happened afterwards was that the Iron Islands, Reach, and Stormlands also went to war while Dorne and the Vale just chilled on the sidelines. War was a long time in coming just as the fall of the Targs were just one slight too far in coming.

He didn't tell the whole council about his plans for Stannis until them morning after Robert died.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Every lord in the 7 kingdoms? Stannis has no man power. He could've landed in Kingslanding with all of his banner men at the end of aGoT. Salladhor Saan tries to get Stannis to do this. But Stannis and Davos tell him they could never hold Kingslanding. Dragonstone only has tiny islands sworn to it.

I suppose the idea is that, if it were already a fait accompli, the Great Houses would not stir to war in order to remove Stannis from the Throne. This, however, ignores the fact that the Lannisters already have two armies in the field at this point.

[Jayaris]

Every lord in the 7 kingdoms? Stannis has no man power. He could've landed in Kingslanding with all of his banner men at the end of aGoT. Salladhor Saan tries to get Stannis to do this. But Stannis and Davos tell him they could never hold Kingslanding. Dragonstone only has tiny islands sworn to it.

There's a difference between landing in King's Landing when Salladohr Saan suggests it and when Ned is still alive, that said if Renly is still set on taking his brothers crown then he probably takes King's Landing either way. (I doubt Stannis would be able to hold the land even though his navy could hold the harbor)

But, Ned wants to return to Winterfell after Stannis lands - The practicality of defending King's Landing doesn't come into it for him.

[James Arryn]

How do people who regard him as an idiot reconcile that view with everything we know Ned accomplished before his second venture into real-wide games of power.

The first, you'll recall, he won.

Is it a kind of limited intelligence that only applies in certain situations? It's not like he's Robert, whose pure martial prowess has always been offset by limitations in other areas...Ned was previously shown to be very able across a wide sphere. Cautious, capable, inspiring great loyalty from men and allies and great respect from his enemies. See how Jorah talks about him, for example.

I again revisit the notion that honor does not have to be blind to be a priority for someone. And trying to look at it under the microscope of limited pragmatism isn't necessarily the way to go; it is often the way to go if you've already decided honor = stupid, or honor = something which should only apply when it doesn't cost.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

How do people who regard him as an idiot reconcile that view with everything we know Ned accomplished before his second venture into real-wide games of power.

The first, you'll recall, he won.

Is it a kind of limited intelligence that only applies in certain situations? It's not like he's Robert, whose pure martial prowess has always been offset by limitations in other areas...Ned was previously shown to be very able across a wide sphere. Cautious, capable, inspiring great loyalty from men and allies and great respect from his enemies. See how Jorah talks about him, for example.

I again revisit the notion that honor does not have to be blind to be a priority for someone. And trying to look at it under the microscope of limited pragmatism isn't necessarily the way to go; it is often the way to go if you've already decided honor = stupid, or honor = something which should only apply when it doesn't cost.

I don't think that any of Ned's previous successes came in the context of Southron court intrigue, a situation that Ned was manifestly incapable of navigating on his own. To leave aside the most obvious and oft-cited examples, let's take Renly: obviously, turning down Renly's hundred swords (or whatever it was) is an oft-maligned example of Ned's honor biting him in the ass, but a more capable man could still have demurred at this point. The key to Ned's 'idiocy' is the fact that he had not even an inkling of who those swords actually were - and the fact that they may have been just as likely to oppose Stannis as Joffrey and the Lannisters.

The point is, even if you assume, for the sake of argument, that Ned actually had the gold cloaks and prevailed over Cersei in King's Landing, he still would not have ensured Stannis's ascent without bloodshed. He let another claimant to the throne ride right out of the city and into the arms of the Margaery Tyrell.

It may not be fair to characterize Ned's failures as stupidity, but they are massive failures nonetheless.

[James Arryn]

I don't think that any of Ned's previous successes came in the context of Southron court intrigue, a situation that Ned was manifestly incapable of navigating on his own. To leave aside the most obvious and oft-cited examples, let's take Renly: obviously, turning down Renly's hundred swords (or whatever it was) is an oft-maligned example of Ned's honor biting him in the ass, but a more capable man could still have demurred at this point. The key to Ned's 'idiocy' is the fact that he had not even an inkling of who those swords actually were - and the fact that they may have been just as likely to oppose Stannis as Joffrey and the Lannisters.

The point is, even if you assume, for the sake of argument, that Ned actually had the gold cloaks and prevailed over Cersei in King's Landing, he still would not have ensured Stannis's ascent without bloodshed. He let another claimant to the throne ride right out of the city and into the arms of the Margaery Tyrell.

It may not be fair to characterize Ned's failures as stupidity, but they are massive failures nonetheless.

I'm not sure he ever had the kind of control where letting or not letting the brother of the king/master of laws/head of a noble house go was an option. Not until he assumed full and actual control as regent, and that never happened. I think people are overlooking how fluid that situation was. He couldn't fight battles premised on control until he had won the battle for control. He thought he was going to, he did not. But criticism of what he should have done presuming the former to me doesn't hold until it became fact.

As far as the cost Stannis was going to involve, I agree, but that's not Ned being stupid. That's Ned being consistent. I do think there was a moment when Renly came to him where he prevaricated and used his honor to stall for a bit, but ultimately he made the decision to Stannis knowing it wouldn't be the easiest path.

Ned's version of honor costs. He knew that, imo. He was just somewhat blindsided by factors like Sansa, LF et al. And therein its hard to fault him; I can't imagine a scenario where he gains control of the GC/King's Landing/the Regency without trusting someone, and he didn't have a lot of options. Would it have been better if he trusted Varys? Cersei? The only options were trust someone and take a chance, or become a different person and lessen the value you place on honor/take the pact with Renly.

I think the latter was the 'wisest' move, but then I am not plagued by Ned's honor. But that fact doesn't make me regard it as either stupid or blind.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

I'm not sure he ever had the kind of control where letting or not letting the brother of the king/master of laws/head of a noble house was an option. Not until he assumed full and actual control as regent, and that never happened. I think people are overlooking how fluid that situation was. He couldn't fight battles premised on control until he had won the battle for control. He thought he was going to, he did not. But criticism of what he should have done presuming the former to me doesn't hold until it became fact.

As far as the cost Stannis was going to involve, I agree, but that's not Ned being stupid. That's Ned being consistent. I do think there was a moment when Renly came to him where he prevaricated and used his honor to stall for a bit, but ultimately he made the decision to Stannis knowing it wouldn't be the easiest path.

Ned's version of honor costs. He knew that, imo. He was just somewhat blindsided by factors like Sansa, LF et al. And therein its hard to fault him; I can't imagine a scenario where he gains control of the GC/King's Landing/the Regency without trusting someone, and he didn't have a lot of options. Would it have been better if he trusted Varys? Cersei? The only options were trust someone and take a chance, or become a different person and lessen the value you place on honor/take the pact with Renly.

I think the latter was the 'wisest' move, but then I am not plagued by Ned's honor. But that fact doesn't make me regard it as either stupid or blind.

He could potentially have won the battle for control of King's Landing when he left Winterfell. He should have brought more men.

The point I was trying to make, however, with the "let's assume he won KL..." thing, is that all he would have won was having one less impediment to Stannis. He is possessed of the idea that all he needs to do is outmaneuver Cersei, and Stannis can be King, and he can go home, and everything will be fine. He is so 'blind' he doesn't even see the Roses waiting in the wings - and if anyone thinks it is unfair to expect him to, recall that Varys was well aware of the developing Renly-Highgarden plot when Robert was still alive.

[James Arryn]

He could potentially have won the battle for control of King's Landing when he left Winterfell. He should have brought more men.

In hindsight, true, but he had no way of anticipating the need; Robert was in full health, control, and therefore to Ned's knowledge the question of a need for actual numbers wouldn't have even been relevant. Remember that when he went south he would have considered getting Joff on the throne if Robert died to be something he and Cersei/etc. would have in common, non conflict.

The point I was trying to make, however, with the "let's assume he won KL..." thing, is that all he would have won was having one less impediment to Stannis. He is possessed of the idea that all he needs to do is outmaneuver Cersei, and Stannis can be King, and he can go home, and everything will be fine.

You may be right. Again, I may be being influenced by the show, which I've seen much more recently than my latest read. But I seem to recall elements in his conversations with both LF and Renly where he acknowledged that he was making the honorable choice, not the easy one, and knew the realm would probably bleed for it.

But if I'm wrong and he thought it was just a one-move game, then yeah, that was unwise.

He is so 'blind' he doesn't even see the Roses waiting in the wings - and if anyone thinks it is unfair to expect him to, recall that Varys was well aware of the developing Renly-Highgarden plot when Robert was still alive.

Well, contrasting anyone's awareness with Varys to me seems unfair. I think most people at the time were focusing on the central conflict; few thought Renly could pull off that kind of coup that quickly. Indeed I think we can say that Renly is the only one whose perception was as keen as Varys' at the time. LF was even playing a shorter game,

[Tumnas the Torpid]

In hindsight, true, but he had no way of anticipating the need; Robert was in full health, control, and therefore to Ned's knowledge the question of a need for actual numbers wouldn't have even been relevant. Remember that when he went south he would have considered getting Joff on the throne if Robert died to be something he and Cersei/etc. would have in common, non conflict.

You may be right. Again, I may be being influenced by the show, which I've seen much more recently than my latest read. But I seem to recall elements in his conversations with both LF and Renly where he acknowledged that he was making the honorable choice, not the easy one, and knew the realm would probably bleed for it.

But if I'm wrong and he thought it was just a one-move game, then yeah, that was unwise.

Well, contrasting anyone's awareness with Varys to me seems unfair. I think most people at the time were focusing on the central conflict; few thought Renly could pull off that kind of coup that quickly. Indeed I think we can say that Renly is the only one whose perception was as keen as Varys' at the time. LF was even playing a shorter game,

With regards to the points I have bolded:

-I would argue that anyone actually capable of playing the game Ned was entering should anticipate the possibility that he or she would need as many swords around as possible. Compare with Tyrion bringing the Hill Tribes with him to KL, and using Bronn to recruit his own sellswords.

-Being aware that's one's moves will precipitate war is not the same thing as making moves to prepare for said war. As it stands, the only such moves he made were specific to defending the North (he gave orders through Cat to secure Moat Cailin, etc.), not to securing Southern allies against the Lannister forces already in the field.

-I think comparing him to Varys is the point. Varys could be our model for someone actually competent in the Game of Thrones.

[Queen Cersei I]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Oh seven hells, yes.

His little interaction with Renly (No, Lord Renly-- I will not be needing your men, I'm perfectly happy trusting in the queen's ironclad integrity, thankyouverymuch!), has always struck me an awful lot like Abe Lincoln, standing outside of the Ford Theater, shouting to a guard, "Bullet proof helmet! I don't need no bullet proof helmet! What in the world could I need that for?!"

[SirPipeWeed]

Ned just wasn't ready for the treachery and backstabbing, that goes on in King's Landing. He was an honorable man, and dishonor and disloyalty he could not understand. At the time, what I am thinking is that he was more concerned with Sansa and Arya than anything. This is also why he basically bends a knee to Joffrey and admits he is a traitor, to keep his daughters alive.