The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[Castel]

Semi-related digression: does anyone else feel that if (if!) Haliax is actually misunderstood/cursed/has a bad PR agent that he's been forced in a way to work with the other Chandrian? Certainly Cinder is a real MFer, and the other Chandrian laugh whiel Cinder is toying with Kvothe. So I don't get the sense that THEY are particularly good or misunderstood. But Haliax is all business, and even chastises the others for their petty cruelty and their lack of focus. In some ways he reminds me of an Amyr: do what needs to be done, kill who needs to be killed, don't make a big deal out of it. Maybe part of his curse is having to work with true traitors, or the first six that Tehlu cursed, or whatever made them what they are.

I haven't been following the discussions on the books but is he truly misunderstood? He seems like Loki in a way, someone that's suffered a lot and is now trying to bend the world around and make them accept suffering because it validates his belief. He suffers so everyone else must, they must, because then it's the world. All this is in the stories. And is hinted at by him in his appearance.

The only thing that saves him from the same pathetic well of self-loathing as Loki is that he's magically cursed. But his purpose doesn't even make sense in the context of said curse. He has to live on so he goes about killing people to end their suffering? Does he want quiet or something? No, he's just an ass.

[two_by_two]

I had a new thought today that was sparked by some of the recent discussions here and some of the thoughts in Jo Walton's read through. At one point Kvothe says that the Chronicler is using his best best trick against him: holding his story hostage. The way it's framed, "my best trick" indicates that maybe he's used it multiple times, so maybe he's used it on more than Felurian. Maybe he's also used it on Haliax. If so it would bring together a number of strands and theories we've put forth so far.

Firstly, it would be consistent with the idea that the Chandrian have been incorrectly painted as evil and the Amyr as good. As others have pointed out there's really no clear cut good and evil in these novels, just different characters driven by different motives. Additionally, it would also support the idea that Selitos was the one who betrayed Lanre, not the other way around, consistent with Denna's song (and even the Thistle Theory). And the Lanre song itself would be the story that Kvothe holds hostage; he threatens Haliax with its destruction (either through physical means or Naming/Shaping) to get what he wants.

This in turn supports the growing legend that Kvothe tricked a demon to get his heart's desire and killed an angel to keep it. By holding the story/song hostage he tricks a demon (Haliax) or what people assume is a demon (I'd say a shadow-hamed immortal would qualify). But afterwards he's forced to confront the Amyr who would be none too happy to have Lanre's story rewritten and disseminated (either because they are evil or simply opposed to the Chandria). If this happened in a public place (Imre maybe?) it would explain why in the frame story everyone is talking about the Chandrian again but in Kvothe's tale they are viewed as children's stories.

Finally, this act would draw further parallels between Kvothe and Haliax (a drum I've been beating for awhile), as Kvothe's story is later corrupted and then the true story held hostage by the Chronicler just as Haliax's story was corrupted and then the truth held hostage by Kvothe.

Semi-related digression: does anyone else feel that if (if!) Haliax is actually misunderstood/cursed/has a bad PR agent that he's been forced in a way to work with the other Chandrian? Certainly Cinder is a real MFer, and the other Chandrian laugh whiel Cinder is toying with Kvothe. So I don't get the sense that THEY are particularly good or misunderstood. But Haliax is all business, and even chastises the others for their petty cruelty and their lack of focus. In some ways he reminds me of an Amyr: do what needs to be done, kill who needs to be killed, don't make a big deal out of it. Maybe part of his curse is having to work with true traitors, or the first six that Tehlu cursed, or whatever made them what they are.

Full blown digression: I'm really hoping that book 3 is as subtle as the first two. I like that PR leaves things vague and lets sharp readers pick out important details an piece things together on their own. In that regard I'm wondering if he might never explicitly state some of the stuff we've figured out. For instance, Kvothe might never find out that he is a Lackless. After all he doesn't NEED to find out in order to "bring the blood". I guess I'm just hoping that there are no moments (or at least very few) where a sympathy lamp goes on in Kvothe's head and he thinks "Aha! The house in Hespe's tale represents the Fae and Jax was a corruption of Iax!" I like figuring out details like that on my own (and with you guys too, of course).

What if Kvothe "holds the story hostage", as it were, by threatening Denna? What would happen if he were forced to choose between allowing the names of the murderers of his parents to be cleared and killing the love of his life? If he decides that he'd rather get his revenge on the Chandrian, and ends up killing Denna? I think that would be more than enough to break a man in the way that we see Kvothe broken. Or actually more reasonably, if T&P (or the singers or the Amyr or whatever) get wind of Denna's song and take her, and Kvothe fights his way to her only to decide that actually her captors have the right of it?

I haven't been following the discussions on the books but is he truly misunderstood? He seems like Loki in a way, someone that's suffered a lot and is now trying to bend the world around and make them accept suffering because it validates his belief. He suffers so everyone else must, they must, because then it's the world. All this is in the stories. And is hinted at by him in his appearance.

The only thing that saves him from the same pathetic well of self-loathing as Loki is that he's magically cursed. But his purpose doesn't even make sense in the context of said curse. He has to live on so he goes about killing people to end their suffering? Does he want quiet or something? No, he's just an ass.

Very good analogy. And yes, it is still possible to be misunderstood under such circumstances. Currently Haliax is portrayed as being "evil", and Kvothe (and the world at large) understands him to be as such. However, unless he is actuallly evil (unlikely, all things considered, especially as I am having difficulty coming up with a strict definition of the word "evil"), he is then misunderstood. We're not saying he's in the right, as it were. Just that it is possible to have sympathy for such a character, just as it is possible to have sympathy for Lucifer in the Christian mythos.

[Castel]

Very good analogy. And yes, it is still possible to be misunderstood under such circumstances. Currently Haliax is portrayed as being "evil", and Kvothe (and the world at large) understands him to be as such. However, unless he is actuallly evil (unlikely, all things considered, especially as I am having difficulty coming up with a strict definition of the word "evil"), he is then misunderstood. We're not saying he's in the right, as it were. Just that it is possible to have sympathy for such a character, just as it is possible to have sympathy for Lucifer in the Christian mythos.

AS you said defining evil is a personal thing. If his motivations are understood and he's defined as evil by other people he isn't misunderstood, he's disliked.People understand him, they just disagree with his philosophy. Now, if the stories defined him as a blood-thirsty butcher then he'd be misunderstood. You cannot assume a baseline for morality where he's not evil.

If he decides that he'd rather get his revenge on the Chandrian, and ends up killing Denna? I think that would be more than enough to break a man in the way that we see Kvothe broken

The thing I like about the series is that Kvothe failed. He's a broken man afraid to even say the names of his enemies.That's why you don't fuck with immortals.. If you throw Denna dying on top of that well, that'd be extra shitty.

[thistlepong]

I had a new thought today that was sparked by some of the recent discussions here and some of the thoughts in Jo Walton's read through. At one point Kvothe says that the Chronicler is using his best best trick against him: holding his story hostage. The way it's framed, "my best trick" indicates that maybe he's used it multiple times, so maybe he's used it on more than Felurian. Maybe he's also used it on Haliax. If so it would bring together a number of strands and theories we've put forth so far.

Firstly, it would be consistent with the idea that the Chandrian have been incorrectly painted as evil and the Amyr as good. As others have pointed out there's really no clear cut good and evil in these novels, just different characters driven by different motives. Additionally, it would also support the idea that Selitos was the one who betrayed Lanre, not the other way around, consistent with Denna's song (and even the Thistle Theory). And the Lanre song itself would be the story that Kvothe holds hostage; he threatens Haliax with its destruction (either through physical means or Naming/Shaping) to get what he wants.

This in turn supports the growing legend that Kvothe tricked a demon to get his heart's desire and killed an angel to keep it. By holding the story/song hostage he tricks a demon (Haliax) or what people assume is a demon (I'd say a shadow-hamed immortal would qualify). But afterwards he's forced to confront the Amyr who would be none too happy to have Lanre's story rewritten and disseminated (either because they are evil or simply opposed to the Chandria). If this happened in a public place (Imre maybe?) it would explain why in the frame story everyone is talking about the Chandrian again but in Kvothe's tale they are viewed as children's stories.

What if Kvothe "holds the story hostage", as it were, by threatening Denna? What would happen if he were forced to choose between allowing the names of the murderers of his parents to be cleared and killing the love of his life? If he decides that he'd rather get his revenge on the Chandrian, and ends up killing Denna? I think that would be more than enough to break a man in the way that we see Kvothe broken. Or actually more reasonably, if T&P (or the singers or the Amyr or whatever) get wind of Denna's song and take her, and Kvothe fights his way to her only to decide that actually her captors have the right of it?

I just wanna perform the due diligence on this in the role of fact checker rather than ... I dunno, make up something.

The most significant point to make is that Denna's song, sympathetic to Lanre, not only exists but is pretty well known:

.....Despite this, it had the first glimmers of beauty to it. The chords well-chosen. The rhyme subtle and strong. The song was very fresh, and there were rough patches aplenty, but I could feel the shape of it. I saw what it could become. It would turn men’s minds. They would sing it for a hundred years.

.....You’ve probably heard it, in fact. Most folk have. She ended up calling it “The Song of Seven Sorrows.” Yes. Denna composed it, and I was the first person to hear it played entire.

But maybe I'm misreading you and you're positing a good portion of the plot for Day 3, where he tricks somebody, kills someone else, and the song gets out anyway, Kvothe having gotten what he wants?

Semi-related digression: does anyone else feel that if (if!) Haliax is actually misunderstood/cursed/has a bad PR agent that he's been forced in a way to work with the other Chandrian? Certainly Cinder is a real MFer, and the other Chandrian laugh whiel Cinder is toying with Kvothe. So I don't get the sense that THEY are particularly good or misunderstood. But Haliax is all business, and even chastises the others for their petty cruelty and their lack of focus. In some ways he reminds me of an Amyr: do what needs to be done, kill who needs to be killed, don't make a big deal out of it. Maybe part of his curse is having to work with true traitors, or the first six that Tehlu cursed, or whatever made them what they are.

I haven't been following the discussions on the books but is he truly misunderstood? He seems like Loki in a way, someone that's suffered a lot and is now trying to bend the world around and make them accept suffering because it validates his belief. He suffers so everyone else must, they must, because then it's the world. All this is in the stories. And is hinted at by him in his appearance.

The only thing that saves him from the same pathetic well of self-loathing as Loki is that he's magically cursed. But his purpose doesn't even make sense in the context of said curse. He has to live on so he goes about killing people to end their suffering? Does he want quiet or something? No, he's just an ass.

Iff. And there’s a lot of if up there. Haliax is, again literally, unable to lose focus. He can’t sleep on it, it can’t drive him insane, and he can’t forget. According to Tehlu, or all people, that’s only true of one individual in all existence. So it may not be that he’s forced to work with them, or that they’re inherently bad folks, but time takes its toll. Haliax has been working on his project for five millennia, and I can imagine him being spread a little thin. The others are just still alive, subject to the same things evident in this discussion looked at as a whole. New information comes to light, folks get tired, their opinions change. I dunno, I got the impression Cinder was the one forced. But maybe that saw cuts both ways.

Castel, your last four sentences sum up the major stumbling block about Haliax in general. His purpose doesn’t make sense. Nor does his curse. Selitos cursed him with infamy and hounding. He was already doomed to live. Neither does he state his purpose. Selitos does that for him in a tale told by a supporter.

Very good analogy. And yes, it is still possible to be misunderstood under such circumstances. Currently Haliax is portrayed as being "evil", and Kvothe (and the world at large) understands him to be as such. However, unless he is actuallly evil (unlikely, all things considered, especially as I am having difficulty coming up with a strict definition of the word "evil"), he is then misunderstood. We're not saying he's in the right, as it were. Just that it is possible to have sympathy for such a character, just as it is possible to have sympathy for Lucifer in the Christian mythos.

AS you said defining evil is a personal thing. If his motivations are understood and he's defined as evil by other people he isn't misunderstood, he's disliked.People understand him, they just disagree with his philosophy. Now, if the stories defined him as a blood-thirsty butcher then he'd be misunderstood. You cannot assume a baseline for morality where he's not evil.

Kvothe has a pretty good reason to cast Haliax as evil. The Seven were all hanging around in the aftermath of his troupe’s massacre, blood on Cinder’s sword, and that guy clearly working for the namer with the shadow face. The Skarpi tells him flat out that Lanre betrayed the founder of the Amyr, whom Kvothe knows as the holy knights of god himself.

We get to ask questions at a remove. In literature, at least, the good guys and the bad guys are often contrasted clearly. The bad guys act without reservation or restraint. The make decisions for personal gain without weighing the consequences. They express little regret. The good guys struggle with their actions. They consider the ramifications of what they do. They regret the wrong decisions and bear the burden of terrible choices.

We see Lanre do the latter even in Skarpi’s Amyr propaganda. So is he an ass? No. Is he evil? Not really. Is he wrong? Maybe.

Full blown digression: I'm really hoping that book 3 is as subtle as the first two. I like that PR leaves things vague and lets sharp readers pick out important details an piece things together on their own. In that regard I'm wondering if he might never explicitly state some of the stuff we've figured out. For instance, Kvothe might never find out that he is a Lackless. After all he doesn't NEED to find out in order to "bring the blood". I guess I'm just hoping that there are no moments (or at least very few) where a sympathy lamp goes on in Kvothe's head and he thinks "Aha! The house in Hespe's tale represents the Fae and Jax was a corruption of Iax!" I like figuring out details like that on my own (and with you guys too, of course).

That’s a drum I’ve been beating for awhile now. Not only do I hope something like that is the case, I think it’s pretty likely. We’ll get a few more clues about the Amyr and the Seven and what they’re up to, the identity and origin of the Cthaeh and Aleph, probably enough to make strong cases and still not convince everybody. The meat of the story will be about the woman, Kvothe’s failure with her, and the actions he took as a result or toward the purpose thereof. Those actions will have some major impact on the corporeal and eternal worlds, but they won’t end either.

And this:

Finally, this act would draw further parallels between Kvothe and Haliax (a drum I've been beating for awhile), as Kvothe's story is later corrupted and then the true story held hostage by the Chronicler just as Haliax's story was corrupted and then the truth held hostage by Kvothe.

This post is already too long, and so alchemy gets the short shrift again. But Hal-Iax most easily translates to “salt of iax,” something that’s confused me for years. Pat talks about having wanted to do a cross cultural survey of salt in literature for grad school and his advidor narrowing it to salt in Shakespeare. So, it made sense, and it made no sense. The deeper I get into this stuff, the more connections crop up. Shakespeare is full of alchemy, and alchemy is full of salt. For Paracelcus, salt was part of a threefold being: salt=body, mercury=spirit, sulphur=soul. I haven’t bricked it all together yet, but for the folks who think Haliax and Iax are definitely connected, there’s a puzzle piece. Haliax is the body of Iax. At the moment, without further reading, Kvothe is the soul of Iax. Which makes some sense, as we tend to expect parallels between him and the boy who loved the moon.

[two_by_two]

AS you said defining evil is a personal thing. If his motivations are understood and he's defined as evil by other people he isn't misunderstood, he's disliked.People understand him, they just disagree with his philosophy. Now, if the stories defined him as a blood-thirsty butcher then he'd be misunderstood. You cannot assume a baseline for morality where he's not evil.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. Well, that's not quite right. Everything you say here is accurate, assuming that people understand him. But the thing is, people don't understand him. It says right there in the book: "What's their plan?" It took Arliden years of searching to even come up with the connection between Haliax and Lanre. Kvothe didn't make the connection, even having heard Skarpi's story and having seen Haliax himself. So no, people don't understand the Chandrian, because they can't understand something they are so hideously uninformed (or misinformed) about. Hell, we've been discussing these books for years, and we're given the information a lot more conveniently than the people of the Four Corners are, and even we can't come to any sort of consensus on his motivations either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Lanre/Haliax is misunderstood because there are such huge gaps in our knowledge of his story, gaps that, if filled, could change the public perception of him from "villain" to "tragic hero", or to really any number of things (fool, ass, sap, pretty much anything).

I just wanna perform the due diligence on this in the role of fact checker rather than ... I dunno, make up something.

The most significant point to make is that Denna's song, sympathetic to Lanre, not only exists but is pretty well known:

.....Despite this, it had the first glimmers of beauty to it. The chords well-chosen. The rhyme subtle and strong. The song was very fresh, and there were rough patches aplenty, but I could feel the shape of it. I saw what it could become. It would turn men’s minds. They would sing it for a hundred years.

.....You’ve probably heard it, in fact. Most folk have. She ended up calling it “The Song of Seven Sorrows.” Yes. Denna composed it, and I was the first person to hear it played entire.

But maybe I'm misreading you and you're positing a good portion of the plot for Day 3, where he tricks somebody, kills someone else, and the song gets out anyway, Kvothe having gotten what he wants?

Ahh, shoot, you're right. Dang. I really liked that theory too... I think it would be a real whammer (that's not really a word but I can't think of the word I want) for Kvothe to have to kill Denna (or rather, be forced to choose that she dies), whether through some misguided sense of "the greater good" or just because he can't get over his parents' murder.

[stumpzapper]

Ahh, shoot, you're right. Dang. I really liked that theory too... I think it would be a real whammer (that's not really a word but I can't think of the word I want) for Kvothe to have to kill Denna (or rather, be forced to choose that she dies), whether through some misguided sense of "the greater good" or just because he can't get over his parents' murder.

Thistle's observation DOES shoot a few holes in your theory. But what if Kvothe kills Denna to prevent the song from getting out but somehow it gets out anyway? Then not only did he kill the love of his life but he did so for no reason. Now that would really break someone...

[two_by_two]

I don't think this has been posted yet - it's a pretty recent interview with Pat. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a whole lot - except perhaps that he wants to avoid apocalyptic scenarios. But that's debateable. Here's the relevant quote.

And fantasy has been doing the same thing for a while, where, starting with Tolkien–his story is very much the story of the Apocalypse. The world will end forever and be enslaved to evil–it’s a large-scale drama. He was following a lot of the Norse Eddas with a lot of epic events. And so everybody followed in Tolkien’s footsteps, so there’s always the end of the world and prophecies and armies clashing. It’s opera, in the style of Wagner’s Ring of the Niebelung. But you don’t have to have that to have an interesting story. You can have an interesting story about a person living an interesting life. And if it’s done well, that is just as engaging as the end of the world. A million people dying–we can’t process. One person, we can process.

I wanted to tell a different sort of fantasy story that hopefully still made people feel the way I felt when I read a lot of these fantasy stories when I was young.

What it sounds like he's saying to me

[stumpzapper]

That article is a nice find. To me it at least it indicates that future stories in his universe won't revolve around Kvothe. In the article you found it says Kvothe never goes to Modeg, but in his Admissions Questions with Jo Walton:

After you’ve finished the third book, what areas of this world are you interested in exploring?

I don’t see why I have to wait. I’m writing a few shorter pieces right now that explore some pieces of the world. Modeg, most notably.

[thistlepong]

What it sounds like he's saying to me

I accidentally the post?

[thistlepong]

That article is a nice find. To me it at least it indicates that future stories in his universe won't revolve around Kvothe. In the article you found it says Kvothe never goes to Modeg, but in his Admissions Questions with Jo Walton:

To the best of my recollection, this is "Laniel Young Again." It's mentioned a couple times in the text. He owes Subterranean Press a novella from the first year of World Builders. I don't have a source handy, but I'll bet you a bottle of elderberry that's what he was referring to.

[two_by_two]

I accidentally the post?

oh herp derp I was going to comment on how it seems like he doesn't want The Kingkiller Chronicle to be about the end of the world, which has some influence on our theories, but I realized I basically already said that. I thought I deleted that part but apparently not.

[thistlepong]

oh herp derp I was going to comment on how it seems like he doesn't want The Kingkiller Chronicle to be about the end of the world, which has some influence on our theories, but I realized I basically already said that. I thought I deleted that part but apparently not.

What I took from it, ultimately, was the thought this is probably the story of Kvothe and Denna. That's really what it started as, after which he backtracked for context.

I think it's pretty well established that the war going on in the frame isn't a big Faen/Corners conflict at this point. I think I need to reread The Princess and Mr. Wiffle.

[Ockain]

Hey thistle. I'm going to throw out a crazy theory here and I'm not sure if it has been brought up, here it goes.

Reread the ch16 in Notw where kvothe stumbles on the chandrian. You erroneously stated Cinder has blood on his sword, however I did not see that in the book.

What I do see is kvothe stumbling upon the Chandrian sitting at his father's fire. One of the chandrian states "looks like we missed a little rabbit. Careful Cinder, his teeth may be sharp." Now this has the look of PR trying to do a literature sleight-of-hand. PR is trying to make you think that the Chandrian killed his family, but at no time do they make ANY threatening moves towards him and Cinder actually sheathes his sword.

What if it's not the Chandrian, but the Amyr that are trying to wipe out all knowledge of Chandrian? As T&P say, confound and confuse, and the Chandrian showed up at all these places after the Amyr had killed and destroyed all the evidence.

Obviously this relates to kvothe's incident, but I haven't thought through the Matthew farm yet, but all you are really seeing is the shocked views of a young child. We don't see the larger picture other than what PR wants us to see through kvothe's eyes, and it could very well be that the Chandrian are being set up as the bad guys here because we didn't see the actual destruction of the people and wagons.

On a side note, when selitos/cthaeth tells kvothe about cinder killing his mom and dad, "maybe this cinder did me a bad turn once" he could easily be diverting kvothe away from his Amyr buddies.

Please tell me what you think and rip my theory apart!

[Ockain]

Also just another quick aside, selitos is the man on the mountain in the tale of Jax....PR informs us Iax/Jax spoke to selitos Which pretty much confirms him as being someone in the story. The tinker makes no sense, my money is on the man ontop of the mountain. In the mountains = Myr Tariniel, and he is a Listener, which is one step away from being a See'er. He gives Jax advice which is ignored, putting this on the right timeline. He has both eyes which is before the War and lanre betrayal, and so I would say this is a young selitos

[two_by_two]

Hey thistle. I'm going to throw out a crazy theory here and I'm not sure if it has been brought up, here it goes.

Reread the ch16 in Notw where kvothe stumbles on the chandrian. You erroneously stated Cinder has blood on his sword, however I did not see that in the book.

What I do see is kvothe stumbling upon the Chandrian sitting at his father's fire. One of the chandrian states "looks like we missed a little rabbit. Careful Cinder, his teeth may be sharp." Now this has the look of PR trying to do a literature sleight-of-hand. PR is trying to make you think that the Chandrian killed his family, but at no time do they make ANY threatening moves towards him and Cinder actually sheathes his sword.

What if it's not the Chandrian, but the Amyr that are trying to wipe out all knowledge of Chandrian? As T&P say, confound and confuse, and the Chandrian showed up at all these places after the Amyr had killed and destroyed all the evidence.

Obviously this relates to kvothe's incident, but I haven't thought through the Matthew farm yet, but all you are really seeing is the shocked views of a young child. We don't see the larger picture other than what PR wants us to see through kvothe's eyes, and it could very well be that the Chandrian are being set up as the bad guys here because we didn't see the actual destruction of the people and wagons.

On a side note, when selitos/cthaeth tells kvothe about cinder killing his mom and dad, "maybe this cinder did me a bad turn once" he could easily be diverting kvothe away from his Amyr buddies.

Please tell me what you think and rip my theory apart!

I am pretty sure this theory has been brought up before, though I think you've drawn more textual support. Also, we don't see the destruction of the farm at all, not even secondhand through Denna's eyes. She leaves before anything happens. The reason Kvothe thinks the Chandrian are responsible is the alleged presence of blue flame and the definite rusting and decaying of the remains of the house, both of which can be explained if the Chandrian show up shortly after the actual events.

And "maybe this Cinder did me a bad turn once" is definitely misdirection - otherwise he wouldn't have said "maybe". When dealing with creatures in fantasy that can only speak the truth, one must always look for maybes and perhapses.

[thistlepong]

Hey thistle. I'm going to throw out a crazy theory here and I'm not sure if it has been brought up, here it goes.

Reread the ch16 in Notw where kvothe stumbles on the chandrian. You erroneously stated Cinder has blood on his sword, however I did not see that in the book.

What I do see is kvothe stumbling upon the Chandrian sitting at his father's fire. One of the chandrian states "looks like we missed a little rabbit. Careful Cinder, his teeth may be sharp." Now this has the look of PR trying to do a literature sleight-of-hand. PR is trying to make you think that the Chandrian killed his family, but at no time do they make ANY threatening moves towards him and Cinder actually sheathes his sword.

What if it's not the Chandrian, but the Amyr that are trying to wipe out all knowledge of Chandrian? As T&P say, confound and confuse, and the Chandrian showed up at all these places after the Amyr had killed and destroyed all the evidence.

Obviously this relates to kvothe's incident, but I haven't thought through the Matthew farm yet, but all you are really seeing is the shocked views of a young child. We don't see the larger picture other than what PR wants us to see through kvothe's eyes, and it could very well be that the Chandrian are being set up as the bad guys here because we didn't see the actual destruction of the people and wagons.

On a side note, when selitos/cthaeth tells kvothe about cinder killing his mom and dad, "maybe this cinder did me a bad turn once" he could easily be diverting kvothe away from his Amyr buddies.

Please tell me what you think and rip my theory apart!

You might be interested in this amusing post.

But someone eventually point out this:

He continued on his way, unaware of my presence, or uncaring. But I stayed where I was, unable to move. The image of the hooded man, his face hidden in shadow, had thrown open a door in my mind and memories were spilling out. I was remembering a man with empty eyes and a smile from a nightmare, remembering the blood on his sword. Cinder, his voice like a chill wind: “Is this your parent’s fire?”

I still half like the Amyr being responsible for the troupe massacre and the Mauthen Farm, and I could convincingly fake a Chandrian attack with naptha, bone tar, and firedamp. But between this and the Cthaeh it looks like the Seven are the responsible party.

I won't be too surprised if it turns out the Amyr rolled over the troupe and the Seven caught up to them and then Tehlu & Pals rained down like lightning from a clear blue sky right after they disappeared, I guess. But that's pretty complicated. It actually confuses the story more than it clears anything up.

Also just another quick aside, selitos is the man on the mountain in the tale of Jax....PR informs us Iax/Jax spoke to selitos Which pretty much confirms him as being someone in the story. The tinker makes no sense, my money is on the man ontop of the mountain. In the mountains = Myr Tariniel, and he is a Listener, which is one step away from being a See'er. He gives Jax advice which is ignored, putting this on the right timeline. He has both eyes which is before the War and lanre betrayal, and so I would say this is a young selitos

This is part of the "Thistle Theory" folks mentioned: from thread VI; from thread VII.

[red roggo]

After reading the books I noticed that the man that Jax talks to tells him that he was "chasing the wind" like students used to do. So if the man turns out to be Selitos that Jax was talking to:

1 Selitos went to the university (unless other people were out on their own chasing the wind)

2 Will the war that Kvorthe starts split the teachers into namers vs shapers? If it does will that actually fight?

Who's side will Kvothe join?

Also on a different note Who's sword is Folly? It seems like it is a Adem style sword. It might be Vashet's as several times she talks about her "poet king" in the small kingdom's. I do not have WMF to look up but it might be Carceret's. I don't think it is Tempe's. I do not remember if there are any descriptions of the different people's swords so it just speculation on my part

[Nisheeth]

After reading the books I noticed that the man that Jax talks to tells him that he was "chasing the wind" like students used to do. So if the man turns out to be Selitos that Jax was talking to:

1 Selitos went to the university (unless other people were out on their own chasing the wind)

2 Will the war that Kvorthe starts split the teachers into namers vs shapers? If it does will that actually fight?

Who's side will Kvothe join?

Also on a different note Who's sword is Folly? It seems like it is a Adem style sword. It might be Vashet's as several times she talks about her "poet king" in the small kingdom's. I do not have WMF to look up but it might be Carceret's. I don't think it is Tempe's. I do not remember if there are any descriptions of the different people's swords so it just speculation on my part

The war probably isn't between the the master's at the university. There are many mentions of the university in the main frame, and none of them even hint at even a disagreement between the teachers. Hiding a battle between Arcanists would be very hard too.

If there was a war between Arcanists, normal people wouldn't try to enter the fight themselves.

Further the first book, in the beginning mentioned that the King was fighting the rebels.

Surely, there is a very dark secret behind that war, the one that overshadows Kvothe, which he tried to reveal to the boy from Newarre (who wanted to join the King's army for the money, can't remember his name). That secret definitely is not one which can be known to an Arcanist, like Chronicler. He doesn't know about the it.

We can conclude that the war was not between the Namers and Shapers.

About the Selitos part, the quote doesn't have to have originated from the university. Maybe, even before the creation war, it might have been a valid phrase?

And didn't Elodin tell Kvothe about the founding of the University, which was after the end of the creation war.

[Ninefingers]

Or Selitos founded the university, and encouraged students to do what he did?

[red roggo]

Nisheeth- Sadly the university is involved in the war,their student(Kvothe) started it. They built the library around a door of stone. If they are entrusted to keep watch over it, maybe Puppet and/ or Lorren are in charge of that door.

Elodin lighting Hemme's room on fire tells me they do not like each other. Kvothe caused a rift between the masters as Hemme and his gang vote against Kvothe while Elodin, Kilvin, and Elixa Dal vote for Kvothe.

Selitos may not have gone to the same university as Kvothe but he had to study somewhere. There must have been a university for him to learn. To know he was the best they must of had duels like Kvorthe had in Elixa Dal's class or against Devi. So instead of Kvothe vs Devi it was Selitos vs Lyra. So it would be possible for Selitos to go chase the wind, and tell Jax he will help him learn to hear.

Chronicler not mentioning any problems at the university might mean there are no problems or he is waiting for Kvothe to tell about it in his own words.