The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[thistlepong]

The University is, in all likelihood, thousands of miles from the conflict - The Penitent King versus the rebels (and whatever.) Kvothe was a student and probably not even a graduate. In fact, they expelled him. They'd be more likely to be held responsible for Caudicus, a full Arcanist implicated in a plot to kill one of the most powerful nobles in Vintas. Except they weren't. No hard feelings. I'll even pay this ginger's tuition.

Pat talked about the masters in an early interview.

How is the University Kvothe attends governed? Do the professors have tenure? If not, how is their intellectual freedom protected?

No tenure. The nine masters, each the head of their own discipline, are also the head administrators of the University. Who would fire them?

As for intellectual freedom… How was the intellectual freedom of the Oxford Dons protected two hundred years ago? It wasn’t. Or rather, their protection came from the fact that if someone came into Oxford and said, “How dare you teach my child evolution!” they’d laugh their asses off at you. An education was what they said it was, and if you wanted it, you got it from them. They were in control.

Now of course that means that, effectively, they were a self-policing community.

And that means that the internal politics were undoubtedly vicious and brutal.

I’d have to do more research before I was willing to bet money on it, but I’m guessing that most of the challenges to intellectual freedom came from the academics themselves in those days, not from the outside world.

(

italics

mine)

Setting fire to Hemme's rooms nets Kvothe a higher tuition. Elodin ambles off into the sunset.

All of the namers at the University are essentially already shapers. Students demonstrate mastery to advance to Re'lar.

[Mixta]

I just re-read the Tehlu, Ecannis story and the similarities to the Lanre, Haliax story are screaming out at me. Any take on the six cities destroyed and the seventh saved? Can someone rehash the two stories with the similarities? Lastly, is this story seen as a church reworking of the Haliax story?

[Nisheeth]

Nisheeth- Sadly the university is involved in the war,their student(Kvothe) started it. They built the library around a door of stone. If they are entrusted to keep watch over it, maybe Puppet and/ or Lorren are in charge of that door.

Elodin lighting Hemme's room on fire tells me they do not like each other. Kvothe caused a rift between the masters as Hemme and his gang vote against Kvothe while Elodin, Kilvin, and Elixa Dal vote for Kvothe.

Selitos may not have gone to the same university as Kvothe but he had to study somewhere. There must have been a university for him to learn. To know he was the best they must of had duels like Kvorthe had in Elixa Dal's class or against Devi. So instead of Kvothe vs Devi it was Selitos vs Lyra. So it would be possible for Selitos to go chase the wind, and tell Jax he will help him learn to hear.

Chronicler not mentioning any problems at the university might mean there are no problems or he is waiting for Kvothe to tell about it in his own words.

Exactly. Kvothe started it. But the university itself is not divided among it self, or at war.

Will the war that Kvorthe starts split the teachers into namers vs shapers? If it does will that actually fight?

This implied that that the university was at war.

Now, Elodin also doesn't like to wear formal clothes, and was singing Jackass when Kvothe was called to the horns for that very song. That was exactly opposite of what the other masters were doing wasn't it? Elodin can pretty much be said to be like a little child(in general, not always). Hemme made fun of him and he set fire to his rooms, just like a little child.

Every thing that is said about the University after Kvothe's expulsion, doesn't even hint at anything like a discord. If he were to put it out there now, it would be entirely out of the methodical way Rothfuss has written yet.

About Selitos learning Naming/Shaping, we don't need school to teach us how to walk. It seems like that to the Fae, magic is natural. Maybe more-so that walking, like breathing. It might as well have been so for the Shaper's and Namer's of that age. It might be like that they were always using their sleeping mind. The duel's in Elxa Dal's class were done using sympathy, which I i seem to remember) was invented in the University, the new one.

@Mixta:

Its been quite a bit of time since I read on that, but I think there was a long discussion on that in Jo's Reread, as well as in one of the older threads.

[red roggo]

Good morning one and all

Thistlepong - even though the university is far from the war they still can influence events. How many people like the Maer employ arcanists? Caudicus was poisoning the Maer but we never find out why or who told him to do it. It might have been the university(I don't think they did but we do not know if Caudicus acted alone or not)

The difference between what Caudicus did and what Kvothe does is much different. Caudicus attempts to kill the Maer with poison, whileKvothe does kill a man just one town away from the university. However Kvothe kills him he left the stones melted and can't be repaired. Now if you were the iron law of atur, which crime would be worth looking into? One where the Maer has taken care of(he is the law on his land answering only to the king) or the one with the dead man and melted rocks? Now where do we ask questions about melted rocks... The university.

The university sends out mercenaries all over the world to acquire artifacts (they can include almost anything from rare books, old pottery with the seven on it ,maybe a ever burning lamp like Kilvin is trying to build). So the university has people all over the world that can influence events.

Nisheeth- you said magic is natural to the fae as easy as walking or breathing, than why does Bast need Kvothe for? Bast is fae and is studying under Kvorthe not the other way around.

Symphathy was newly created at the university that Kvorthe attends? I don't remember that at all- but I remember Kvorthe thinking to himself that the duels were from long ago and you may have to fight other arcanists outside the university later on.

[Nisheeth]

Good morning one and all

Thistlepong - even though the university is far from the war they still can influence events. How many people like the Maer employ arcanists? Caudicus was poisoning the Maer but we never find out why or who told him to do it. It might have been the university(I don't think they did but we do not know if Caudicus acted alone or not)

The difference between what Caudicus did and what Kvothe does is much different. Caudicus attempts to kill the Maer with poison, whileKvothe does kill a man just one town away from the university. However Kvothe kills him he left the stones melted and can't be repaired. Now if you were the iron law of atur, which crime would be worth looking into? One where the Maer has taken care of(he is the law on his land answering only to the king) or the one with the dead man and melted rocks? Now where do we ask questions about melted rocks... The university.

The university sends out mercenaries all over the world to acquire artifacts (they can include almost anything from rare books, old pottery with the seven on it ,maybe a ever burning lamp like Kilvin is trying to build). So the university has people all over the world that can influence events.

Nisheeth- you said magic is natural to the fae as easy as walking or breathing, than why does Bast need Kvothe for? Bast is fae and is studying under Kvorthe not the other way around.

Symphathy was newly created at the university that Kvorthe attends? I don't remember that at all- but I remember Kvorthe thinking to himself that the duels were from long ago and you may have to fight other arcanists outside the university later on.

The original arguments were regarding the possibility of war between Arcanists. Not their involvement in the war. It is most probablethat they are having Arcanists fight. Your current argument digresses from the original point.

I might have mis-remembered about Sympathy.

The magic I am speaking of is Grammirie, Glamourie, and kind. The magical magics.

From the book Kvothe keeps on urging Bast to read, it seems like Bast is learning Alchemy, maybe even Sympathy.

Both are Scientific magics. Unlike, Naming, they have very well defined rules, much like we have in Chemistry and Physics. They probably won't come naturally to.

BTW, was is ever explicitly mentioned that Bast was learning magic from Kvothe( I don't have access to the books at the moment unfortunately)?

I know that Kvothe has been teaching bast about some things. But they don't necessarily have to be related to magic. And we can be sure that Bast is not staying with Kvothe because he wants to learn from him. It is obvious that he has some other relationship with Kvothe, which we all want to know about!

[red roggo]

Nisheeth- sympathy is dangerous Kvorthe nearly kills Hemme in class his second day of school(Kvorthe 1st whipping at school) so he is teaching Bast stuff that can kill.

I think that shapers or namers are fighting in the war- if not explain the scrael they seem to be made,not a natural type of animal.

[unJon]

This has undoubtedly been raised before, so apologies in advance:

What if Denna is Lauralain's daughter, and Kvothe is really NOT Lauralain's son? So Denna is the Lackless (I recall at least one bit of textual evidence that Lauralain might have had her child was already preggers when she ran away with the Ruh. Does what we know of Denna's age fit this hypothesis? It would explain the similarities between the description of Meluan (sp?) and Denna. It explains what Denna is doing in Vin. For those who believe Cinder is Denna's patron, it very neatly explains what a Chandrian would be Denna's patron (which is otherwise super-coincedental / inexplicable).

[thistlepong]

Massive set of mostly answers from the text:

This has undoubtedly been raised before, so apologies in advance:

What if Denna is Lauralain's daughter, and Kvothe is really NOT Lauralain's son? So Denna is the Lackless (I recall at least one bit of textual evidence that Lauralain might have had her child was already preggers when she ran away with the Ruh. Does what we know of Denna's age fit this hypothesis? It would explain the similarities between the description of Meluan (sp?) and Denna. It explains what Denna is doing in Vin. For those who believe Cinder is Denna's patron, it very neatly explains what a Chandrian would be Denna's patron (which is otherwise super-coincedental / inexplicable).

Might have been raised before. Not a lot of evidence. Kvothe says he got his eyes from his mother; Laurian says he got his hands from his father. No one questions his parents. Laurian says:

“Come to think of it, there was a night, about a dozen years ago, a man came to me. He bound me with kisses and cords of chorded song.”

Kvothe’s eleven at the time. Denna’s supposed to be, according to Kvothe, a couple years older than him. Denna looks more like Netalia than Laurian does.

Both Cinder and Bredon are in Vintas when Denna is, so regardless of which is her patron she’s got all kinds of justification for being there.

About Selitos learning Naming/Shaping, we don't need school to teach us how to walk. It seems like that to the Fae, magic is natural. Maybe more-so that walking, like breathing. It might as well have been so for the Shaper's and Namer's of that age. It might be like that they were always using their sleeping mind. The duel's in Elxa Dal's class were done using sympathy, which I i seem to remember) was invented in the University, the new one.

relevant quotes:

long before the cities of man. before men. before fae. there were those who walked with their eyes open. they knew all the deep names of things.

Aleph, Iax, Selitos, and Lyra are all of these people, the Ruach. They’re all shapers. Odds are they learned together by doing.

Sympathy was invented here, but a sympathist without any naming might as well be a carriage driver.

How many people like the Maer employ arcanists?

…whileKvothe does kill a man just one town away from the university. However Kvothe kills him he left the stones melted and can't be repaired. Now if you were the iron law of atur, which crime would be worth looking into? One where the Maer has taken care of(he is the law on his land answering only to the king) or the one with the dead man and melted rocks

Nisheeth- you said magic is natural to the fae as easy as walking or breathing, than why does Bast need Kvothe for? Bast is fae and is studying under Kvorthe not the other way around.

Court appointments are probably the most common positions for Arcanists. Ben implies it in, like, the twelfth chapter.

We don’t know who, if anyone, Kvothe kills in Imre, The stones are shattered, not melted. The Iron Law works like normal criminal law: charges are brought, arrests are made, trials are held. They can ask questions at the university, but only that. And from what we see they don’t. Individuals are responsible for organizing their own defense. If Kvothe’s dead, and he is as far as they’re concerned, justice is served.

Bast is learning alchemy from Kvothe. Cellum Tinture is an alchemy text. Felurian doesn’t know anything about sympathy or sygaldry. Her very being is a match for most mortals. Faen shed the majority of their power in the Mortal, so Bast would need to rely on other magics if he were planning to stay. And he has, for two years.

BTW, was is ever explicitly mentioned that Bast was learning magic from Kvothe( I don't have access to the books at the moment unfortunately)?

I know that Kvothe has been teaching bast about some things. But they don't necessarily have to be related to magic. And we can be sure that Bast is not staying with Kvothe because he wants to learn from him. It is obvious that he has some other relationship with Kvothe, which we all want to know about!

All we have to go on is the book Bast’s supposed to be reading, really. And yah, he’s got other reasons for staying which aren’t spelled out.

I think that shapers or namers are fighting in the war- if not explain the scrael they seem to be made,not a natural type of animal.

Felurain, Cthaeh, the draccus, and the shambleman/skindancer are all unnatural. Most folks think they’re all Faen. Even if they are some sort of shaper doomsday device, there’s no indication that they’re new. One of the earliest theories about them was, in fact, that they were incredibly old.

[EDITED to better differentiate between book and poster quotes and between one quote/set and the next]

[two_by_two]

We don’t know who, if anyone, Kvothe kills in Imre, The stones are shattered, not melted. The Iron Law works like normal criminal law: charges are brought, arrests are made, trials are held. They can ask questions at the university, but only that. And from what we see they don’t. Individuals are responsible for organizing their own defense. If Kvothe’s dead, and he is as far as they’re concerned, justice is served.

But it's possible such a presumably overt display of hideously powerful magic would turn the populace against the University, and if the populace feels universally strongly about something, the law is likely to follow close behind. Or they could just riot and tear down the University themselves. And from what I gathered, the Iron Law is really more like the Inquisition: not too picky about who it binds.

[Nisheeth]

Nisheeth- sympathy is dangerous Kvorthe nearly kills Hemme in class his second day of school(Kvorthe 1st whipping at school) so he is teaching Bast stuff that can kill.

I think that shapers or namers are fighting in the war- if not explain the scrael they seem to be made,not a natural type of animal.

What if it is dangerous? The masters at the University teach children about it, don't they? And what says that the magic that fae know is any less dangerous than sympathy. This point has no relevance to the discussion at all.

Shapers might be fighting in the war. I never said anything to oppose it. In fact, the mentality of the namers is quite like that of shapers. They thing of mastery of things, not about knowing it. Again, I point out, all the previous points raised were not about whether Shapers are fighting in the war.

It was about whether the University was at war with itself.

@thistlepong: Thanks for finding that quote. Was it after the part when Kvothe first used the name of the wind?

[thistlepong]

@thistlepong: Thanks for finding that quote. Was it after the part when Kvothe first used the name of the wind?

It's from Elodin's class in WMFc43,

[Nisheeth]

It's from Elodin's class in WMFc43,

Oh! Thanks again.

[red roggo]

Thistle pong- I don't have either book so I cannot quote but a guest staying at Kvorthe's inn does recognize him and says I saw where you killed him, where the stones were shattered. So we know that he did kill someone in Imre. We really don't know who Kvorthe is hiding from,but he is hiding enough to change his name. Scarpi & Chronicler were looking for him so people don't think he's dead.

As for Bast - we get a glimpse of what he is doing at the end of WMF- when Chronicler goes into Bast room we are told what's in his room. I think he is collecting the 7 item to open the Lockles door of stone. On his shelf is a ribbon with a lock of hair. Not a Loclos Heir but a Loc(Los) of Hair. There is a ring of bone, a feather , a candle with leaves stuck in it. The Candle with the leaves makes me think of another line in the poem about the black smoke(I can't remember how the poem goes) but that is what I think Bast is up to.

[jumbles]

Thistle pong- I don't have either book so I cannot quote but a guest staying at Kvorthe's inn does recognize him and says I saw where you killed him, where the stones were shattered. So we know that he did kill someone in Imre.

We know people think Kvothe killed someone there, but we do not know if he really did. So much of these books is about how stories are not always 100% accurate.

As for Bast - we get a glimpse of what he is doing at the end of WMF- when Chronicler goes into Bast room we are told what's in his room. I think he is collecting the 7 item to open the Lockles door of stone. On his shelf is a ribbon with a lock of hair. Not a Loclos Heir but a Loc(Los) of Hair. There is a ring of bone, a feather , a candle with leaves stuck in it. The Candle with the leaves makes me think of another line in the poem about the black smoke(I can't remember how the poem goes) but that is what I think Bast is up to.

Now THIS is interesting. I'll have to reread some stuff.

[red roggo]

The Cthaeh's story is straight outta the Bible, a serpent in a tree! El diablo himself! So Bast is right he is the worst. Now this Cthaeth tells Kvorthe that Cinder did him a bad turn one time. Shehyn tells Kvorthe the story he cannot repeat for 1000 days about the cities being destroyed. Shehyn's story says the cities held and the attackers used dirty tactics to win. Those tactics were like rotting fruit from the inside out. Maybe the way they did break the deadlock by sending in the worm to rot the apple(the worm or snake/Cthaeh ) from the inside. Bast said his knowledge of his insight was like a plague ship into a harbor, they sent in the Cthaeh himself. So his prophesies made the cities fall. So the Cthaeh wins the war and to the victors goes the spoils,but not for the Cthaeh (or worm)gets his bad turn,Cinder binds him to his tree prison. Being that Cinder has a cruel personality he must of rubbed the Cthaeh nose in that fact. The Chandrian wanted him as far from people as possible after that. That is why he in a tree in the fae guarded.Bad timing for Kvorthe to visit him when he wasn't guarded. So what my overly long post says is that the Cthaeh story and Adam &Eve's stories are similar (I realize that the snake/worm comparison is a stretch but it kinda fits)

[Loslathdos]

Thistle pong- I don't have either book so I cannot quote but a guest staying at Kvorthe's inn does recognize him and says I saw where you killed him, where the stones were shattered. So we know that he did kill someone in Imre. We really don't know who Kvorthe is hiding from,but he is hiding enough to change his name. Scarpi & Chronicler were looking for him so people don't think he's dead.

Like 'jumbles' said this story is full of the idea, you can't believe everything in stories. After all old cob, thought that Kvothe summoned a demon when he burned that lightweight metal thing.

Also he might not be hiding from a specific someone in his past, but rather just trying to escape his past, besides he is a wanted man, and his head was worth a lot of money according to himself, when he tries to convince the smiths 'prenntice to not leave and join the military.

[thistlepong]

Thread 9

[thistlepong]

Kinda hoping jumbles will be able to update his post to include stuff from this thread as well

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Magic update:

The first six magics are Word of God.

1. Alchemy.
   
2. Sympathy.
   
3. Naming.
   
4. Sygaldry.
   
5. Glamourie.
   
6. Grammarie.
   
7. (Knacks)
   
8. (Yllish braiding/knotwork - exemplified by Denna and the Loeclos Box)
   
9. I just remembered one more that gets a whisper of a mention. The singers of the Tahl.
   
10. And there’s an eighth you haven’t seen yet. Something to look forward to.
    

Going through WMF.... When K, Dedan, Hespe, Tempi & Marten happen upon Felurian, her singing was supernaturally alluring... Kvothe realizes to himself (This is magic...) After waking up in Fae he realizes that she can turn that super-attraction on and off at will... he thinks again to himself with much more certainty "This was magic, but nothing like what I knew"

I'm not sure what category that would fall into ....