Mirri Maz Duur Appreciation Topic

[Bright Blue Eyes]

MMD is a better person than most in the world of ASOIAF. The only small stain on her morality is Rhaego, but from an utilarian point of view his abortion was simoly necessary to prevent an greater evil, at least if you believe in prophecy.

[Kozma]

I have never thought that MMD intentionally performed an abortion on Dany. She explicitly warned her of the blood magic consequences. I think that burning MMD is an act of cruelty done by Dany and her blood is on Dany hands. I think that is an act of same cruelty as Theon killing millers boys. Dany did it just to save her face upon the rest of her horde.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

For those saying "Dany knew blood magic was a bad idea but did it anyway"...what other option did she have? Her Khal was dying before her eyes. The other bloodriders are threatening her life and saying that after the Khal dies, she will be nothing. This goes against everything that Daenerys is. Not only would she lose Drogo, but what she thought was her only chance to conquering her birthright, the Iron Throne. At this moment she was looking for anything that could give her hope. It was a devil's bargain, obviously. But how was she to think that this woman that she saved would do such a monstrous thing to her?

Yes, Drogo and his warriors destroyed her village and the people she loved. But that was Khal Drogo, not Dany and certainly not her unborn child. MMD misdirected her anger at innocent people and for that, she deserved to burn.

But at the end of the day, if it wasn't for MMD's betrayal the birth of the dragons wouldn't have happened. The three deaths of Drogo, Rhaego and MMD on the funeral pyre activated the hatching of the three dragons. For that, and that alone, I appreciate MMD.

[FuzzyJAM]

How is Dany not culpable? The reason Drogo goes on his murderous rampage is in preparation for his invasion of Westeros, which she has urged him to. She's as guilty as he is considering Drogo is doing what she asked of him. Read what Mirri says - she saves Drogo just as much as Dany saved her. It's a pretty convincing argument, so any feelings that Mirri somehow betrayed someone who saved (actually she was enslaved, but hey, never mind. . .) her are plainly ridiculous.

As for having no other option. . .uh, how about listen to Mormont and flee? She has been told, and accepted, that people aren't interested in her ruling them in Westeros, so any desire to do so is purely selfish. She has the potential to be incredibly rich and live her days in peace. Her "unthinkable" option leaves her having one of the highest living standards in the world.

[Castel]

How is Dany not culpable? The reason Drogo goes on his murderous rampage is in preparation for his invasion of Westeros, which she has urged him to. She's as guilty as he is considering Drogo is doing what she asked of him. Read what Mirri says - she saves Drogo just as much as Dany saved her. It's a pretty convincing argument, so any feelings that Mirri somehow betrayed someone who saved (actually she was enslaved, but hey, never mind. . .) her are plainly ridiculous.

As for having no other option. . .uh, how about listen to Mormont and flee? She has been told, and accepted, that people aren't interested in her ruling them in Westeros, so any desire to do so is purely selfish. She has the potential to be incredibly rich and live her days in peace. Her "unthinkable" option leaves her having one of the highest living standards in the world.

Yup, she pushed for an invasion, knowing the Dothraki had no coin or such and traded in slaves.

I think it speaks to her childishness that she thinks that MMD wouldn't betray her.

As for selfishness, that's Dany through and through. See: her later trying to conquer Westeros to install a dynasty that would end with her.

Yes, Drogo and his warriors destroyed her village and the people she loved. But that was Khal Drogo, not Dany and certainly not her unborn child. MMD misdirected her anger at innocent people and for that, she deserved to burn.

Dany caused everything, and on top of that she enslaved the woman. And deserves to burn? Really? Perhaps it's because I find retributive punishment abhorrent but I don't think that anyone deserves to burn. Especially not for this.

[JKeats]

It's a damn shame MMD couldn't kill off Dany herself. Ahh, if only...

[Lummel]

...people aren't interested in her ruling them in Westeros, so any desire to do so is purely selfish. She has the potential to be incredibly rich and live her days in peace. Her "unthinkable" option leaves her having one of the highest living standards in the world.

While I agree that MMD is an under-rated hero in the series - giving her life in service for others and taking revenge for those who were so peace-loving as to barely defend themselves - this selfishness that you attribute to dany is common to all the pretenders to the iron throne. Do the small folk want her or Joffrey or Stannis, wouldn't they prefer peace and bread?

However of all the pretenders to the crown I'm inclined to think on the bias of what we have seen so far that Dany has the most sympathy and empathy for the hardiest done by in society and least desire for the trappings of monarchy.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

As for having no other option. . .uh, how about listen to Mormont and flee? She has been told, and accepted, that people aren't interested in her ruling them in Westeros, so any desire to do so is purely selfish. She has the potential to be incredibly rich and live her days in peace. Her "unthinkable" option leaves her having one of the highest living standards in the world.

Flee??? That is not in her blood to do so. Her family were Kings who ruled Westeros for 300 years. Before that they were of the high nobility of Old Valyria. She is the Blood of the Dragon. You really expect her to say "Okay, Jorah...let me sell these dragon eggs and move to Asshai where I can play housewive while you farm land or some such" Whaaa??? She is a Targaryen. She was born to conquer and rule.

[JKeats]

Flee??? That is not in her blood to do so. Her family were Kings who ruled Westeros for 300 years. Before that they were of the high nobility of Old Valyria. She is the Blood of the Dragon. You really expect her to say "Okay, Jorah...let me sell these dragon eggs and move to Asshai where I can play housewive while you farm land or some such" Whaaa??? She is a Targaryen. She was born to conquer and rule.

I agree completely! In fact, I say we find Aerys' corpse, reanimate him, and seat him on the throne. It's his birthright. He is Blood of the Dragon!

While I agree that MMD is an under-rated hero in the series - giving her life in service for others and taking revenge for those who were so peace-loving as to barely defend themselves - this selfishness that you attribute to dany is common to all the pretenders to the iron throne. Do the small folk want her or Joffrey or Stannis, wouldn't they prefer peace and bread?

However of all the pretenders to the crown I'm inclined to think on the bias of what we have seen so far that Dany has the most sympathy and empathy for the hardiest done by in society and least desire for the trappings of monarchy.

I'd say Robb Stark (caveat: he's not after the Iron Throne, but considered himself a king nonetheless) had just as much sympathy, if not more. Robb never compared himself to a god after all, the way Dany did at the top of her pyramid in Mereen.

[Lummel]

I don't recall any mention of sympathy on Robb Stark's part for the small folk. He certainly did less for the oppressed than Dany.

[Castel]

Flee??? That is not in her blood to do so. Her family were Kings who ruled Westeros for 300 years. Before that they were of the high nobility of Old Valyria. She is the Blood of the Dragon. You really expect her to say "Okay, Jorah...let me sell these dragon eggs and move to Asshai where I can play housewive while you farm land or some such" Whaaa??? She is a Targaryen. She was born to conquer and rule.

Yes, instead let's start a war that will get a whole bunch of people killed and raped! Let's introduce an alternate culture to Westeros and watch the sparks fly! Because everyone in Westeros is going to love the Dothraki. Hell, if that plan fails, why not go wreck shit up with dragons and then die, leaving everything worse of than when you started!

And it's not in her blood. The Starks ruled for longer than that and they bowed, same goes with a bunch of other Great Houses. She's never even seen Westeros. Please. There's no hereditary thing involved here.

[Gurkhal]

MMD is a better person than most in the world of ASOIAF. The only small stain on her morality is Rhaego, but from an utilarian point of view his abortion was simoly necessary to prevent an greater evil, at least if you believe in prophecy.

For once I agree fully with you. Better than Drogo and Rhaego dies than that the world will be ravaged by Dothraki rapine raiders.

[FuzzyJAM]

I don't recall any mention of sympathy on Robb Stark's part for the small folk. He certainly did less for the oppressed than Dany.

Dany may feel some form of sympathy for her subjects, and that's to her credit, she most certainly hasn't helped them. Mereen is a mess and she pretty clearly messed up Astapor hugely. She's gradually learning to move from her selfish "I want to stop suffering that I see so that I can feel better about myself and the terrible things I do" into a position of more genuine care, though it's hard to tell where exactly she is. Regardless, with a lot of humility and learning she could become as worthy a ruler as you can expect. Fundamental to this would be acceptance that Mirri Maz Duur was not, in fact, evil - if she can do this, I will consider her redeemed.

As for Robb, he believes in rule of law if nothing else. You can keep your empty "freedom", justice (tempered with mercy) is the foundation of any state worth living in for those not of the nobility. It's not enough in itself, but it is a requirement. Considering Robb's father believes the low born murders and rapists and deserters, etc., that he executes deserve to be put to death by a man willing to listen to them and Robb apparently holds the same view, I'd say there's a strong indication that Robb thinks the common folk matter.

Other than that, Asha is a contender for the crown that clearly cares about common folk.

And then there's Tommen, who's clearly the best potential king. :lol:

[Brienne the Beauty]

I love the way that MMD seems like a villain the first time you read it, but the second time you realize that she was completely justified. From her point of view she was killing Hitler in the cradle.

[Lummel]

I agree it would be good if Dany could convert her desire to stop suffering into effective and long lasting benefit - but the lesson of ASOIAF is that ruling is difficult. The best laid plans of mice and men and all that afterall.

But I can't convert the fact that Robb chops off Karstark's head personally into demonstrating anything beyond adherance to tradition, and his pursuit of retribution for his house's insulted honour brought only disaster upon Northerners.

Asha I agree understand the benefit of peace and swedes to the ordinary man and woman on the iron isles, Tommen I fear is a monarch who could only be appreciated by beet-haters.

[oba]

How is Dany not culpable? The reason Drogo goes on his murderous rampage is in preparation for his invasion of Westeros, which she has urged him to. She's as guilty as he is considering Drogo is doing what she asked of him. Read what Mirri says - she saves Drogo just as much as Dany saved her. It's a pretty convincing argument, so any feelings that Mirri somehow betrayed someone who saved (actually she was enslaved, but hey, never mind. . .) her are plainly ridiculous.

This is pretty silly considering that Khal Ogo's khalasar had actually attacked MMD's town first.

Ogo and his son had shared the high bench with her lord husband at the naming feast where Viserys had been crowned, but that was in Vaes Dothrak, beneath the Mother of Mountains, where every rider was a brother and all quarrels were put aside. It was different out in the grass. Ogo's khalasar had been attacking the town when Khal Drogo caught him. She wondered what the Lamb Men had thought, when they first saw the dust of their horses from atop those cracked-mud walls. Perhaps a few, the younger and more foolish who still believed that the gods heard the prayers of desperate men, took it for deliverance.

It's also silly, IMO, to pretend that Drogo and his khalasar suddenly decided to start raiding because of Dany wanting the Iron Throne. Yep, that khalasar was all about peaceful relations with the Lamb Men and everyone else before Dany showed up. They'd never do anything like raid a town and enslave its people. Except for, you know, the fact that khalasars seem to do that sort of thing all the time.

And what ultimately convinced Drogo to pursue an invasion of Westeros (at some future date) wasn't Dany's urging but the botched assassination attempt.

Should MMD be "grateful" to Dany? Absolutely not. As MMD points out to her, Dany didn't save her from anything and MMD owes her no duty of even kindness much less loyalty. At the same time, acting like Daenerys is somehow responsible for what MMD or her town suffered requires ignoring both common sense and what actually happened in Book 1.

But, hey, let's not let facts get in the way or anything. :dunno:

[FuzzyJAM]

Where did I suggest that Drogo was a peaceful man pre-Dany or that the Dothraki in general were peaceful? I'm simply saying that Dany was all for his raping and pillaging, and thus she deserves just as much blame.

The attempted assassination was what led Drogo to grant Dany's request.

[jarl the climber]

So Mirri is the person who knew Danys kid would end up being like Hitler and she killed him, YEAH MIRRI! However she did it such a way using blood magic and she also told Dany enough so thaty she somehow figured out what was going on and she turned this blood magic against her and reawakened dragons into the world which could aid many evil men conquer and pilage cities for hundreds of years. So instead of letting Dany have a baby who wouldn't harm anybody for at least 10-15 years during which she would have had many more chances to kill him, she ended up giving Dany three dragons that will start killing people much sooner and will become much more difficult to kill sooner as well. Its like she killed Hitler but gave nukes to Mussolini.

[oba]

Where did I suggest that Drogo was a peaceful man pre-Dany or that the Dothraki in general were peaceful?

Perhaps when you posted this:

How is Dany not culpable? The reason Drogo goes on his murderous rampage is in preparation for his invasion of Westeros, which she has urged him to.

That rather strongly implies that Drogo wouldn't have raped and pillaged without Dany urging him to do so. This seems like a very different Drogo than the one I read about.

The attempted assassination was what led Drogo to grant Dany's request.

The assassination attempt led to this from Drogo:

"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, khal, will do this thing."

Yes, if Drogo had never married Dany he'd have no interest in Westeros, but it's kind of tough to say that his raping and pillaging (something he'd engaged in long before he ever met Daenerys) can be laid at her feet. Just my $.02.

[FuzzyJAM]

I apologise for any confusion, but my intention was not to say that Drogo would have lived as a peaceful hermit were it not for Dany. I mean exactly what I said and no more or less, what you think I implied wasn't intended. All I have said is that Dany encourages what Drogo does and is thus culpable. I'm not laying it at her feet, she's not the primary mover, I'm simply saying she is also to blame. I see no other reading of the text as making sense. If you ask for rape and conquest and that request is granted, are you not to blame just because the rape and conquest probably would have happened at some other point anyway?

So Mirri is the person who knew Danys kid would end up being like Hitler and she killed him, YEAH MIRRI! However she did it such a way using blood magic and she also told Dany enough so thaty she somehow figured out what was going on and she turned this blood magic against her and reawakened dragons into the world which could aid many evil men conquer and pilage cities for hundreds of years. So instead of letting Dany have a baby who wouldn't harm anybody for at least 10-15 years during which she would have had many more chances to kill him, she ended up giving Dany three dragons that will start killing people much sooner and will become much more difficult to kill sooner as well. Its like she killed Hitler but gave nukes to Mussolini.

Yeah, that's why I'm not all for it. But, as I and others have argued, it's not clear from the text whether the death of Rhaego was intentional - in fact, it seems like it wasn't.