Possible theory about Jojen Reed?

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Damn wiki...i fixed it though

Greywater fever pretty much destroys my theory, but it could explain why Jojen is so much weaker than everyone else

[3rd Eye]

Howland wargs into a young boy upon his deathbed, going against all that Haggon as ever said. All this just to help the crippled wolf. Shit if Bran can hit up Hodor for a little whynot Reed. Pretty crackpot but like you all said this is Martins world and anything goes. Especially now that magic is slowly creeping back into the world.

[Dave X]

If I recall correctly it is mentioned that Jojen is indeed eating less than the others. Combined with the gpossible greyscale, that would explain his weakness. Im re- reading SoS ATM so maybe I'll find a quote. That being said I came upon this thread because I had thought that this could be true, for reasons others have stated, I.e. "little grandfather" and Howland's absence despite his great importance to the back story. However,I would prefer that Jojen be Jojen and that there be a better explanation for Howland's absence. Also R+L = J is the only theory that has any credibility in that regard, due in part to the fact that Howland needs to surface at some point and he is the only living person that would know that truth. Also explains Roberts rebellion, I.e. everything ...lol sorry slightly off topic

[Joan of Arc]

There isn't really any evidence against it either. Here are my points that aims towards the possibility of Jojen being Howland:

1. There isn't any mention of Jojen existing until he shows up at Winterfell.

Well, thinking here that the first male Reed shows up at Winterfell (so he must be Howland) is a bit to obvious.

2. He is nicknamed "little grandfather".

By Old Nans. Who lives at Winterfell and in the books there is no indication that they could have met. I think 'little granfather' is related to the way he acts...beyond his years which would have stuck out for a boy Jojens age.

3. He seems highly advanced in knowledge of greenseeing and warging. Not bad for a pre-teen.

He has greendreams (he states repeatedly that he only has that). Knowing about warging and greenseeing, would not have been strange for a cranogman boy a group that lives in the marches much like the First Man and CotF.

4. Why would Howland send two young kids so far north on their own?

To save Bran from Winterfell and bring him to the three eyed crow. (A very important move in this story). Besides that the Reeds have proven that they can handle themselfs on the road. They brought Bran to the NF with hardly any incidents using the terain they travelled as their advantage.

5. Why have we not seen Howland yet?

Howland has no interest into the Iron Throne or who will sit on it. However, the cranogmen would be in a bad situation when winter comes, because the marsh land would be frozen solid. That puts their main interest into fighting off whatever winter is bringing to them.

6. Since Jojen has gone north, there hasn't been anyone that has mentioned Howland being somewhere else - hence nothing saying he is in 2 places at once.

Howland is still in his place at Greywater. He has no interest in the fight/controll over the Iron Throne. The marsh lands at the Neck is their place and they live there in harmony with nature still respecting the old gods. His actions helped the old gods and CotF.

Obviously this is speculation, however there are many on here that are adamant there isn't any way that Jojen could be Howland. Why so sure considering all of the twists and turns we've seen so far?

The Reeds do have a talent for showing up at the most important moments in this story, don't they?

About Howland, GRRM has stated somewhere that Howland will never get a POV because he knows to much.

But looking into the actions of the Reeds, they aid the CotF. Howland shows up at Harrenhal after his visit to the Isle of MF, where he meets the Starks. Then he shows up again at ToJ. We know that he saved Neds life, a father to five childeren who all have warging abilities. A very important move for the CotF.

Then there is Jojen and Meera. Jojen has a greendream and after discussing it with Howland, Howland decides to send Jojen and Meera to Winterfell. Jojen and Meera do urge Bran to come with them so he can meet the three eyed crow in his dreams. Again a very important move for the CotF.

But back to Jojen, I dont think he is Howland. Jojen already knew he was going to die, his job was to educate Bran and take him to the three eyed crow. They are at one of the nerve centers of CotF. For cranogman that is something even bigger that the Isle of MF.

[ShadowRaven]

Wow, I didn't even realize it!

If he is Howland Reed........Damn you for making this theory, lmao.

[Lau-la Mora]

I don't buy it.... To me is just too far fetched.... Like the Jojen paste

[The Snowman]

I don't buy it.... To me is just too far fetched.... Like the Jojen paste

The jojen paste just seems too weird and i dunno far-fetched.

[lostinwesteros]

Deer Nejoj,

I like it.

Me, too. Hats off to Nejoj. :thumbsup:

Hmmm... I don't know if I totally buy into this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up to be true. If Howland was the Knight of the Laughing tree, then maybe you could use that as evidence of his ability to disguise himself and keep his true identity concealed. The crannogmen are mysterious and we don't really know alot about them. Maybe they are able to do something like that glamour thing Mel does. I kinda doubt it, though it could go either way I guess.

(null)

I wouldn't be surprised, either, as per DoctorSwerv, reply#2 above - plenty of other strange-ities flying around. Truly. :eek:

I see no reason to simply throw this theory out. There's no concrete evidence that Howland Reed even exists, so he could be anyone. Hell, he could be a wight. He could be Daenerys. He could be Jojen. He could be a rabbit. I, however, like the idea that he's Jojen. It makes a weird sort of sense. I'm not saying it's provable through textual evidence we've had so far, but it would make sense. Why would Howland Reed be sitting in a swamp twiddling his thumbs? If R+L=J, Jon's gotta find out at some point. It would make sense for Jojen-Howland to be there already, rather than Howland starting to make his way up now. If he isn't Jojen, he's certainly late to the party.

Some good points for the theory. I like it :D

Yep, :agree:

[7OldDrownedRedGodsofLight]

I'm pretty convinced that Jojen is dead and that Bran eats him in his weirwood paste in ADWD. So, I don't think he's Howland Reed/aging backwards. Poor Jojen.

sadly I have to agree with Jojen being weirwood paste, and disagree with jojen being howland

[Pomp & Happenstance]

I'm thinking there's a Grrm quote somewhere saying we will see Howland Reed in the future, but I'm not 100% certain on that, so eh.

I think with Martin's realism roots, the option of a Benjamin Button scenario is a little far-fetched. But who knows where his magic will take us? I like the idea of Jojen being special though, more than his already known abilities of green dreams.

[mrlukeduke]

I'm pretty convinced that Jojen is dead and that Bran eats him in his weirwood paste in ADWD. So, I don't think he's Howland Reed/aging backwards. Poor Jojen.

sadly I have to agree with Jojen being weirwood paste, and disagree with jojen being howland

My own speculation is that whatever Jojen might be doing for Bran (and the group) as he slowly withers, is similar to what happened with Howland Reed and Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy and not just being there for moral support or guidance. I'm not sure if HR is alive, but if he is, he might be withered like Jojen. See where I'm going here?

See: http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry2797146 for evidence re: "Jojen paste" (eww!).

Ned Stark was very badly injured, probably dying, after the battle and Howland Reed saved him (I think revived him) somehow. Ned was always very sad at the events that took place there and then. I often thought it was the death of Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning (as well as the later events involving Lyanna of course). But I think it's both those AND something that Howland Reed did right after the battle, as Ned lay injured — at least that's when Ned seems to turn sad in the retelling.

Could it be (a bit wild, yes...) that Ned wanted Howland to revive Lyanna if he could, and wished he could have chosen to die in her stead?

I know I know, bit wild.

[Lion of Judah]

Didn't Howland Reed send bannerman to Robb Stark in a clash of kings? He sent Meera and Jojen to Robb to pledge fealty, but his banner men were fighting with Robb. Why would he be travelling north of the wall with his bannermen fighting south of the wall? Jojen didn't know Bran was a warg until he got to Winterfell, so the there was never a plan on the Reed's end to go north of the wall prior to getting to Winterfell.

They were only there to pledge to Robb, and decided to go north of the wall because Theon took Winterfell and Bran failed at trying to open his third eye. Only then did Jojen realize that he could only teach Bran so much and Bran need to see the 3 eyed crow.

If Jojen was Howland Reed why would he be so preoccupied with Bran? Why bypass the wall when you knew the truth about Jon Snow who is at the wall? Theory is interesting and fun but I can't buy into it, doesn't make much sense when given further thought.

[Torrhen Snow]

I agree with Black Lord, they had no true intentions other than pledging fealty and If Jojen's Howland wouldn't he want to get Jon SNow's parentage out of the way before going north of th wall?

[ab aeterno]

Didn't Howland Reed send bannerman to Robb Stark in a clash of kings? He sent Meera and Jojen to Robb to pledge fealty, but his banner men were fighting with Robb. Why would he be travelling north of the wall with his bannermen fighting south of the wall? Jojen didn't know Bran was a warg until he got to Winterfell, so the there was never a plan on the Reed's end to go north of the wall prior to getting to Winterfell.

Didn't Robb send word to Howland Reed and the Crannogmen to hold the Neck in case the Lannisters marched north IIRC? I don't think any of the Reeds' men went south with Robb, they stayed around the marshes/swaps surrounding Moat Cailin and GWW.

[Pope Killdragon]

I think someone on here came up with this theory, I am not taking credit for this. In my re-read of ADWD, Bran notices Jojen getting weaker by the day does anyone else feel that Jojen is a benjamin button case. Bran notices that Meera always follows whatever Jojen tells her. Also, in Bran's first chapter Jojen says something along the lines of today is not the day I die. What if Jojen is actually the mysterious Howland Reed and at the end of the Bran chapters in ADWD Meera and Jojen are missing because he realizes he is dying and want's to go to the wall and tell Jon about his true parentage before he dies?

Mind = blown. But I'd like to hear about some pre-existing form of Benjamin Button inducing magic before I'm sold.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I personally don't buy this theory, but I do like the part of this theory that the Reeds apparent disappearance = theyre trying to find a way out of the caves and to the wall. The only thing is, if that is indeed what they've been up to this whole time, its taken them a while.

Just watch - first Bran POV chapter of TWoW - Reeds are still in the cave with Bran. From there who knows what'll happen but I just can't wait for the "Jojen paste" thing to not happen.

[Flig]

When a theory has literally zero textual evidence it's time to throw it aside, I'm afraid.

I would've said the same thing, before I read Dance. After all, before that was published, somebody saying "Hey, what if somebody switched out Aegon's body before the sack of King's Landing, and he's actually chilling in Essos right now?" wouldn't have had any textual evidence.

[Ghost of Groat]

Nothing is impossible in these books.

Seeing the next book prior to 2015 :(

[Southpaw89]

I honestly think that if Martin plans on having Howland Reed be the revealer of Jons mother then this makes the Jojen = Howland likely. One reason being he could give Bran the information so he could speak through the trees to whoever and another reason being that he's north of the wall and close enough that he could tell Jon himself

[Sandy Clegg]

Howland is still in his place at Greywater. He has no interest in the fight/controll over the Iron Throne. The marsh lands at the Neck is their place and they live there in harmony with nature still respecting the old gods. His actions helped the old gods and CotF.

But he does have an interest in helping the surviving children of Eddard, his old friend (and liege lord, lest we forget).

Here's what I've been thinking after looking through this and other Jojen = Howland threads. I don't think any Benjamin Button magic is necessary to explain his youthful appearance. After all, we know that the crannogmen are partly descended from the CotF, so having prolonged youthful features would not be out of the question. The people of Westeros really know little about the crannogmen due to their seclusion in the swamps. And reading the Jojen chapters again, with the J=H theory in my head, everything seemed to click nicely, especially in ASOS. When Meera tells the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, Jojen twice asks Bran if he had already heard the story from his father. It's as though he is sad/disappointed that Ned never shared this memory of Howland. As the story also featured Lyanna/Rhaegar we can of course understand Ned not wanting to retell the tale.

So why the pretence?

One of the reasons people seem to be against Jojen = Reed is that "there is no reason for Jojen to lie about his identity". On the contrary, if it became known that Howland Reed was not in Greywater Watch might this not weaken the Neck's position among their enemies? Not to mention that being a boy nearer Bran's age means he can spend more time with Bran and make it easier to get the bottom of his warging.

I also like the idea that HW is not being held back until the last book just because he 'knows too much'. He is perfectly placed now beyond the wall to meet up with Jon and even Benjen (who would be able to confirm HW's identity).