Joy Hill and the Westerlings

[bloodymime]

I wouldn't think they'd head for the BWB but I could see the BWB scooping them up. They are already keeping tabs on the place since they're quick enough to capture and hang the Freys that leave.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She either gets a crown for her daughter or handsome rewards from her liege lord.

Ah, but if she's playing both sides, all the more reason to actually give Jeyne fertility potion for as long as Robb holds onto his crown (and Jeyne holds onto hers), and only introduce moon tea when it was absolutely necessary.

For what it's worth, I really do think that Sybell's a self-serving snake who probably jumped at the chance to do Tywin's bidding. I just think it was much later than many people think, and that she retconned her family's involvement to make it more Lannister-friendly than it really was. "Oh it was totally my idea all along for Jeyne to marry Robb!", etc.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

OK, think of it this way then — if the Crag was locked down enough that they couldn't allow Robb to "succumb" to his wounds, how was it open enough for the Westerlings to conspire with Tywin?

Oh, I agree that the Westerlings weren't conspiring with Tywin at that point, I'm just not sure that the fact that they didn't kill Robb at the time is such a great indicator of this (for reasons that just an Other already mentioned).

It's not.

So... then it could just as well be Jeyne's I guess. I just realized I don't really have a point here, it's just that Jeyne's crown is never seen on the page after Jaime arrives, while Ryman seems to have completely ignored what is basically an order on Jaime's part to leave the other crown --- strikes me as a bit weird.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So... then it could just as well be Jeyne's I guess. I just realized I don't really have a point here, it's just that Jeyne's crown is never seen on the page after Jaime arrives, while Ryman seems to have completely ignored what is basically an order on Jaime's part to leave the other crown --- strikes me as a bit weird.

But the description matches Robb's. And I've already pointed out that the crown is seen in the Lannister-Frey camp BEFORE Riverrun falls and before any of those men get inside it. So how could it be Jeyne's? It's never seen on the page before Jaime arrives either, so ...?

I think the only point is, Ryman's an insubordinate jackass.

[bloodymime]

One of the more interesting descriptions of the Westerlings is Cat's very first sight of them.

"Between them were a handsome older lady and a pretty maid who looked to be her daughter. There was another girl as well, near Sansa’s age."

So you have Cat thinking of Jeyne as undeniably pretty despite her already wanting to, maybe not dislike her I'm not sure what I want to say here, she has more reason to see Jeyne negatively than Jaime does who sees her as merely pretty enough for a child. People have different standards so it's impossible to predict how two different people will see the same person but why doesn't Jaime notice the family resemblance between Jeyne and her mother that Cat does at a glance from across a crowded room with all she has on her mind at that moment.

Also for the younger daughter not being old enough to pass for Jeyne. Apparently she's Sansa's age and look how fast Sansa had bloomed in a short span, it happens at that age. It could be she's had a sudden growth spurt which is why she is described as 'awkward' instead of the admittedly sparse but consistent description of Jeyne as either timid or shy.

[Sun]

I don't have access to my books right now. Is the quote "have joy of him" or "have Joy off him" ?

The first means they will be happy with his treatment of them, or that he will reward them justly, while the second means he will give them Joy's hand in marriage.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't have access to my books right now. Is the quote "have joy of him" or "have Joy off him" ?

The first means they will be happy with his treatment of them, or that he will reward them justly, while the second means he will give them Joy's hand in marriage.

Sybell heard it as "joy of him." But again, could be a "snow/Snow" situation. He could very well have said, "Joy off him" and she misheard or heard what she wanted to.

[Sun]

Sybell heard it as "joy of him." But again, could be a "snow/Snow" situation. He could very well have said, "Joy off him" and she misheard or heard what she wanted to.

It's much more likely that he said "have joy of him" meaning he will reward their service. That's what I think, anyway.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

So... then it could just as well be Jeyne's I guess. I just realized I don't really have a point here, it's just that Jeyne's crown is never seen on the page after Jaime arrives, while Ryman seems to have completely ignored what is basically an order on Jaime's part to leave the other crown --- strikes me as a bit weird.

Ryman taking the crown contrary to Jaime's orders is a Frey being a Frey. They don't like to be told what to do, and they don't want to give up a damn thing. Yet more reason to send them all to the seven hells. I jest! I jest! But this shows some classic Frey resentment against their Lannister allies, and who knows where that might lead.

Jaime also told Ryman to send the hostages to King's Landing. I suppose if Ryman never got to the Twins that message wasn't delivered, or even if it was, I don't think Walder would given them up. That's too bad, I was looking forward to an episode where the Freys are escorting their hostages down the Kingsroad and all UnCat breaks loose, with the result that the Greatjon, among others, is free . . .

Ah, I can dream.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's much more likely that he said "have joy of him" meaning he will reward their service. That's what I think, anyway.

Perhaps. Still seems like an oddly vague, oddly "flowery" way of him to put it, especially given that there is an actual girl named Joy in the family. I think he did refer to Joy and Sybell heard what she wanted to hear. And given Jaime's distaste at his cousin marrying one of them, I don't see why he would make it up on the spot unless he, unlike Sybell, could figure out what Tywin meant.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

But the description matches Robb's. And I've already pointed out that the crown is seen in the Lannister-Frey camp BEFORE Riverrun falls and before any of those men get inside it. So how could it be Jeyne's?

My original thought was that Jeyne's and Robb's crowns may be similar. Ryman had Robb's crown, but left it it at the Lannister-Frey camp, so the crown that Lady Stoneheart has is actually Jeyne's, and brought there by Jeyne herself. Although, that wouldn't really explain why Stoneheart is holding on to it (there's some heavy symbolism that goes with that) so...

[The Sleeper]

Ah, but if she's playing both sides, all the more reason to actually give Jeyne fertility potion for as long as Robb holds onto his crown (and Jeyne holds onto hers), and only introduce moon tea when it was absolutely necessary.

For what it's worth, I really do think that Sybell's a self-serving snake who probably jumped at the chance to do Tywin's bidding. I just think it was much later than many people think, and that she retconned her family's involvement to make it more Lannister-friendly than it really was. "Oh it was totally my idea all along for Jeyne to marry Robb!", etc.

i would agree with you, but we have Tywin gleefully rubbing his hands together, almost since the start of ASOS. I think the fertility potion/moon tea is perfectly possible regardless. It would have been much better if she avoided arousing questions of infertility and suddenly producing a "miscarriage".

Ryman taking the crown contrary to Jaime's orders is a Frey being a Frey. They don't like to be told what to do, and they don't want to give up a damn thing. Yet more reason to send them all to the seven hells. I jest! I jest! But this shows some classic Frey resentment against their Lannister allies, and who knows where that might lead.

Jaime also told Ryman to send the hostages to King's Landing. I suppose if Ryman never got to the Twins that message wasn't delivered, or even if it was, I don't think Walder would given them up. That's too bad, I was looking forward to an episode where the Freys are escorting their hostages down the Kingsroad and all UnCat breaks loose, with the result that the Greatjon, among others, is free . . .

Ah, I can dream.

I don't think there is a chance in hell the Frey's are going to give up their hostages, paritcularly with the Iron Throne shaky. It's there only insurance against very pissed off Northmen and fellow Rivermen.

[The Sleeper]

My original thought was that Jeyne's and Robb's crowns may be similar. Ryman had Robb's crown, but left it it at the Lannister-Frey camp, so the crown that Lady Stoneheart has is actually Jeyne's, and brought there by Jeyne herself. Although, that wouldn't really explain why Stoneheart is holding on to it (there's some heavy symbolism that goes with that) so...

I thought it was quite clear form the text. Edwyn(?) Frey complains that his father was hanged (and not hang as he is not a tapestry) and the crown shows up in Cat's hands.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Ryman taking the crown contrary to Jaime's orders is a Frey being a Frey. They don't like to be told what to do, and they don't want to give up a damn thing.

Yes, I'll buy this.

Jaime also told Ryman to send the hostages to King's Landing. I suppose if Ryman never got to the Twins that message wasn't delivered, or even if it was, I don't think Walder would given them up.

That breaks my heart a little.

I thought it was quite clear form the text. Edwyn(?) Frey complains that his father was hanged (and not hang as he is not a tapestry) and the crown shows up in Cat's hands.

Yes, yes, I give up on the crown! Don't know what I was thinking...

[Cheese Pudding]

So, the Freys would have betrayed Robb even without his marriage with Jeyne? Or are you just questioning the Westerlings participation in the marriage? Like, Tywin used Robb's marriage, not planned.

[Sun]

Perhaps. Still seems like an oddly vague, oddly "flowery" way of him to put it, especially given that there is an actual girl named Joy in the family. I think he did refer to Joy and Sybell heard what she wanted to hear. And given Jaime's distaste at his cousin marrying one of them, I don't see why he would make it up on the spot unless he, unlike Sybell, could figure out what Tywin meant.

Yes it is a vague statement, and to me fits with Tywin's personality as we know it. Tywin, being the absolute overlord we know him to be, would see any service the Westerlings could render him in a time of war as an obligation not a favour. And therefor any reward he chooses for said service, if any, as fit payment.

Why Jaime answered as he did? I can't really speculate until I reference the passages in my book for the full context (it's been a while since I read AFFC), which unfortunately I can't do at the moment.

[The Sleeper]

So, the Freys would have betrayed Robb even without his marriage with Jeyne? Or are you just questioning the Westerlings participation in the marriage? Like, Tywin used Robb's marriage, not planned.

I've always thought that Robb's marriage served as a nice pretext. The real reasons were the fall of Winterfell and the Battle of Blackwater and the Freys' burning desire to be on the winning side. Mostly the former. They would never have pulled that shit with an intact North at their back.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So, the Freys would have betrayed Robb even without his marriage with Jeyne? Or are you just questioning the Westerlings participation in the marriage? Like, Tywin used Robb's marriage, not planned.

I think they would have eventually, yes. But what I'm trying to say here is that people are giving Tywin too much credit for the Robb-Jeyne wedding, and that if you look at small details and the timeline, I don't think it's possible or likely that the Westerlings were "in on it" as early on as some people believe.

Yes it is a vague statement, and to me fits with Tywin's personality as we know it. Tywin, being the absolute overlord we know him to be, would see any service the Westerlings could render him in a time of war as an obligation not a favour. And therefor any reward he chooses for said service, if any, as fit payment.

Why Jaime answered as he did? I can't really speculate until I reference the passages in my book for the full context (it's been a while since I read AFFC), which unfortunately I can't do at the moment.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Sun]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

if you insist that "have joy of him" is Tywin promising the Westerlings Joy's hand in marriage, then yes. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

if you insist that "have joy of him" is Tywin promising the Westerlings Joy's hand in marriage, then yes. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

As I said — "joy" doesn't strike me as the sort of word that Tywin would use. It was also used in the specific context of a match for Sybell's son.

"Mention was made of a match for him as well. A bride from Casterly Rock. Your lord father said that Raynald should have joy of him, if all went as we hoped."

In that context, in reference to Raynald and accompanied by the point about "a bride from Casterly Rock," I don't see how he could be referring to anything or anyone other than Joy, which Sybell misunderstood as meaning something else. Obviously if the word was used in reference to a match for the daughters or even to the family in general, you might have a point that it only meant that Tywin was going to reward them. But that's not how it's used.