[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Stannis is so hell-bent (no pun intended) on getting the Iron Throne that he would never sign his life away and vow to protect the Wall. He is nothing if not honorable, and would not resume his pursuit if it meant breaking his vows. And if he's not a brother of the NW, he would have no reason to communicate with the Others, much less sign a pact to let them through.

Also, the Horn of Joramun is still allegedly out there somewhere. If the Others are just let through through the Wall, what would be the point in its existence? The giants are already awake.

Just because he isn't a member of the Night's Watch doesn't mean he can't sign a pact with the Others. He also has a reason to side with the Others if (and this is pretty much a given) the northern lords ditch him for the new King in the North, Jon. As you said, he is hell bent on being the true king of Westeros, so him being the Night King to become king brings a lot of interesting parts to the story, and to his arc.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Just because he isn't a member of the Night's Watch doesn't mean he can't sign a pact with the Others. He also has a reason to side with the Others if (and this is pretty much a given) the northern lords ditch him for the new King in the North, Jon. As you said, he is hell bent on being the true king of Westeros, so him being the Night King to become king brings a lot of interesting parts to the story, and to his arc.

No, but it does mean he can't open the gate to let them through. Stannis is persistent, but he's not a crazy man. As the OP already mentioned, the only way for him to succeed would be to give up his soul, if that is even an option (we're assuming souls are candy here that mortal men have control over). He will not give up his Westeros allies (which he still has) to surround himself with dead men that want to destroy all life. IMO.

I seriously doubt Jon will ever be King in the North. First off, he has only ever wanted to be back at Winterfell - not be a king. That was Robb's deal, which was more his bannermen's idea than his.

And how do you explain the Horn of Joramun if they can just waltz right in through the underground tunnel?

[KingHodorTargaryen]

No, but it does mean he can't open the gate to let them through. Stannis is persistent, but he's not a crazy man. As the OP already mentioned, the only way for him to succeed would be to give up his soul, if that is even an option (we're assuming souls are candy here that mortal men have control over). He will not give up his Westeros allies (which he still has) to surround himself with dead men that want to destroy all life. IMO.

I seriously doubt Jon will ever be King in the North. First off, he has only ever wanted to be back at Winterfell - not be a king. That was Robb's deal, which was more his bannermen's idea than his.

And how do you explain the Horn of Joramun if they can just waltz right in through the underground tunnel?

Ok, first of all, who says the Wall would still be up? Second, even if the Wall is still up, if a king tells a Night Watch member to open the gate, he will open the gate, no questions asked.

What allies? The southerners are dropping like flies. The book specifically mentions that, while saying the northerners only lost about 2 men. If the northerners abandon Stannis, he has NO ONE. Zip, nadda, zilch. So he turns to the Others.

Are we reading the same books here? Robb didn't want him as lord of Winterfell, he wanted him as his heir, to be king in the north. So what if it was his bannermen's idea? They didn't choose Jon, Robb did.

What does this last statement even mean? Do you think the Night's King theory is about Stannis letting the Others through the Wall? No, the theory is the Wall goes down, probably by the Horn of Joramun, and Stannis sees their power, and becomes their king.

[Ben Blackfysh]

Calm down, it's only a discussion. I made sure to throw an IMO in there.

Ok, first of all, who says the Wall would still be up? Second, even if the Wall is still up, if a king tells a Night Watch member to open the gate, he will open the gate, no questions asked.

Nobody, you are correct. They could bring it down before, in which case Stannis would be free to... oh wait, the Others would have no reason to make a pact, would they?

What allies? The southerners are dropping like flies. The book specifically mentions that, while saying the northerners only lost about 2 men. If the northerners abandon Stannis, he has NO ONE. Zip, nadda, zilch. So he turns to the Others.

Maybe.

Are we reading the same books here? Robb didn't want him as lord of Winterfell, he wanted him as his heir, to be king in the north. So what if it was his bannermen's idea? They didn't choose Jon, Robb did.

All I'm saying is Jon has expressed no desire to be a king, and actually seems to enjoy the thought of being Lord Commander.

What does this last statement even mean? Do you think the Night's King theory is about Stannis letting the Others through the Wall? No, the theory is the Wall goes down, probably by the Horn of Joramun, and Stannis sees their power, and becomes their king.

The Horn of Joramun supposedly exists. If they have not found it yet, and somehow the Others are let through the Wall by some idiot, what would be the purpose of the horn if someone did find it? There would be no reason to blow it, deeming it useless in the storyline. If the wall does come down, the Others have no reason to ally with Stannis. They would see him as another piece of meat.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Calm down, it's only a discussion. I made sure to throw an IMO in there.

Nobody, you are correct. They could bring it down before, in which case Stannis would be free to... oh wait, the Others would have no reason to make a pact, would they?

Maybe.

All I'm saying is Jon has expressed no desire to be a king, and actually seems to enjoy the thought of being Lord Commander.

The Horn of Joramun supposedly exists. If they have not found it yet, and somehow the Others are let through the Wall by some idiot, what would be the purpose of the horn if someone did find it? There would be no reason to blow it, deeming it useless in the storyline. If the wall does come down, the Others have no reason to ally with Stannis. They would see him as another piece of meat.

1. The wights were an uncoordinated mess on the Fist of First Men. Think about how much more effective they would be in battle formation under a good commander. The Others have a lot to gain by taking Stannis as their King. They really have nothing to use.

2. Look at the books, his southerner strength is pretty much non-existent.

3. Jon didn't want to be lord of Winterfell because he was bound to the Night's Watch (negated since his watch has ended) and because Stannis was going to burn the Weirwoods.

4. Look, I'm fine with the theory that the Horn of Joramun blows down the Wall. Stannis would hardly ever let them through the Wall. Look at point 1 for why the Others can gain a lot with Stannis.

[aryagonnakill]

1. The wights were an uncoordinated mess on the Fist of First Men. Think about how much more effective they would be in battle formation under a good commander. The Others have a lot to gain by taking Stannis as their King. They really have nothing to use.

2. Look at the books, his southerner strength is pretty much non-existent.

3. Jon didn't want to be lord of Winterfell because he was bound to the Night's Watch (negated since his watch has ended) and because Stannis was going to burn the Weirwoods.

4. Look, I'm fine with the theory that the Horn of Joramun blows down the Wall. Stannis would hardly ever let them through the Wall. Look at point 1 for why the Others can gain a lot with Stannis.

I think the NK is more about replenishing their numbers than being led in battle. The battle at the fist does not actually describe an uncoordinated mess, it describes the wights attacking from all sides at the same time, the only reason they took heavy losses is because they are slow and were going up a hill to a defended position having to climb over a wall as well, Mormont had ordered all the fire arrows so they were taking losses the whole time.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I think the NK is more about replenishing their numbers than being led in battle. The battle at the fist does not actually describe an uncoordinated mess, it describes the wights attacking from all sides at the same time, the only reason they took heavy losses is because they are slow and were going up a hill to a defended position having to climb over a wall as well, Mormont had ordered all the fire arrows so they were taking losses the whole time.

Point taken, but imagine if the wights had been in a battle formation and had been well coordinated. If the wights just stumble along, I fail to see how they would be a credible threat against the north if it's in a decent state. How would the Night's King replenish their numbers though?

[Ben Blackfysh]

The wights don't get their strength from their battle tactics. They get it from their enemies being overcome by winter. Even the Night's Watch is accustomed to cold weather, and they seem to be crippled by the presence of the White Walkers and their army. How do you think the southerners would be affected? If the fish are already out of the water, there's no need to bait a hook; just scoop them up and go about your day.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

The wights don't get their strength from their battle tactics. They get it from their enemies being overcome by winter. Even the Night's Watch is accustomed to cold weather, and they seem to be crippled by the presence of the White Walkers and their army. How do you think the southerners would be affected? If the fish are already out of the water, there's no need to bait a hook; just scoop them up and go about your day.

The Others only raided the wildling camp, which was filled with a bunch of people roipe for the killing. Why didn't they kill that group? If they cant fight a host of barely armed men, women, and children, how would they fight a host of northerners actually able to fight?

[Ben Blackfysh]

Don't know... maybe George did that just to give us a taste of what they can do.

... or maybe they're not completely without honor.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Don't know... maybe George did that just to give us a taste of what they can do.

... or maybe they're not completely without honor.

They tried to kill Gilly's baby. They have no thoughts or honor or mercy

[Ben Blackfysh]

I was kidding. But their weakness is baby boys, so can you blame them? Maybe they were once priests.

[siknes]

I am expecting Stannis to buy the farm within the first third of TWoW. Even if he retakes Winterfell his troops can't match Aegon's. And why would the Others make a pact with him? They don't even know him. What could they gain from it? Unless Melisandre is in league with the Others I can't see this happening.

If anyone we have seen so far becomes a leader of the Others I assume it will be Jon.

Aegon will go against the Martells and King Tomen next. The Others would gain access past the wall, unless the whole betrayal by the NW against Jon is what breaks, cracks the wall, I don't see it completely falling, plus Sam has the horn down south. I see your point about Jon, but unless one of the dragons dies there needs to be three riders, or in bran's case Warg, The white one, sorry can't remember the name, is a perfect match for Jon and Ghost, red eyes. Why is it most people think Aria needs to be a Faceless Woman, She needs to be with Nymeria and their pack, WHO ARE YOU..... Liar

[Ben Blackfysh]

Aegon will go against the Martells and King Tomen next. The Others would gain access past the wall, unless the whole betrayal by the NW against Jon is what breaks, cracks the wall, I don't see it completely falling, plus Sam has the horn down south. I see your point about Jon, but unless one of the dragons dies there needs to be three riders, or in bran's case Warg, The white one, sorry can't remember the name, is a perfect match for Jon and Ghost, red eyes. Why is it most people think Aria needs to be a Faceless Woman, She needs to be with Nymeria and their pack, WHO ARE YOU..... Liar

Or both. Nymeria would be a pretty effective means of killing people, seeing as Arya is only a little girl.

[Greymoon]

Must there be a turn from Fire to Ice for Stannis?

There are already parallels between Stannis and the Nigh's King, without Stannis making a pact with the Others IMO.

• Melisandre = a fire version of the Night's King's wife
  
• "when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well" and Stannis has given his seed to Melisandre. The 'union' was consumed.
  
• Instead of sacrificing to the Others, Stannis sacrifices to R'hllor
  
• Mance Rayder, King-Beyond-The-Wall = Joramun, King-Beyond-The-Wall,
  
• and Jon Snow would take the place of the King in the North (?)
  

The only thing that makes Stannis different from the Night's King is that he hasn't taken any Night's Watch vows. But he is king, and he has taken residence at the Wall, and he is consorting with a beautiful/dangerous woman.

[The Imperator]

The Others only raided the wildling camp, which was filled with a bunch of people roipe for the killing. Why didn't they kill that group? If they cant fight a host of barely armed men, women, and children, how would they fight a host of northerners actually able to fight?

Like they fought Ser Wymar Royce, with the advantage of being practically unkillable due to the fact that they don't have large deposits of obsidian to craft into weapons.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Like they fought Ser Wymar Royce, with the advantage of being practically unkillable due to the fact that they don't have large deposits of obsidian to craft into weapons.

So they will attack the northern armies like they attacked Royce: one on one combat. Not very efficient. The Others themselves are probably outnumbered. They need to rely on wights for big battles, much like lords on their armies.

[shasoc]

A very interesting theory and I came to a similar conclusion but not about stannis. I dont think Stannis will become other or join others instead he will be killed by Bolton. Melissandre will ressurect Jon Snow may be at the cost of her own life and Jon snow will be revealed as azor ahai reborn. Jon will take Stannis' sword and the sword will behave as it was meant to behave and then he will crush Boltons there by earning respect and support of entire north which he will use to fight the other. Rickon Stark will be named King in the north with Davos as his hand. Manderly and other northeners will support this. Asha will join Jon to defend the wall. Bran will also help Jon in his task on magical side of things. Theon will be sacrificed to old gods which will mean revenge and probably increased strength for Bran.

Coming back to point about others. I think that Walder Frey will join the other. He is dying unscrupulous coward who has committed a grave sin of guest slaughter and the only way for him to survive would be to make deal with the devil, the other. So all the Freys will either become others or slaves of others.

[MtnLion]

There is a hint to Walder Frey's ending in the screenplay. The Rat King is told by Brandon while they are at the Nightfort. The next scene is cleaning up from the Red Wedding, and listen closely, a rat squeaks.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

There is a hint to Walder Frey's ending in the screenplay. The Rat King is told by Brandon while they are at the Nightfort. The next scene is cleaning up from the Red Wedding, and listen closely, a rat squeaks.

Yes, the story goes how the rats were eating each other while the Rat King was eating his young was it? I think it means more that as soon as Walder Frey dies, all the other Freys are going to be killing each other to fight for the lordship. It's already happening.