Advantage of having Valyrian blade?

[kkae]

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Well said. (btw, I love your Aquilonian nick)

I see Valyrian steel only as a superior way of forging steel perhaps there is also magical side to it but it is just part of the forging process. So Valyrian steel is something like Damascus steel was in our world at some point in history.

However, I do like think that Dawn is something different and out of this realm (ha ha). It was forged from heart of fallen star which sounds cool. It makes a skilled fighter Arthur Dayne even deadlier which is confirmed by the DayneVSBarristan question and Darkstar's admiration of the sword not the man. And if I remember right when Arthur Dayne was fighting in the Kingswood his enemy's (Smiling Knight) sword was broken. So maybe Dawn cuts quite easily through steel which would explain why it makes a fighter even more dangerous.

[Pallantides]

Well said. (btw, I love your Aquilonian nick)

I see Valyrian steel only as a superior way of forging steel perhaps there is also magical side to it but it is just part of the forging process. So Valyrian steel is something like Damascus steel was in our world at some point in history.

However, I do like think that Dawn is something different and out of this realm (ha ha). It was forged from heart of fallen star which sounds cool. It makes a skilled fighter Arthur Dayne even deadlier which is confirmed by the DayneVSBarristan question and Darkstar's admiration of the sword not the man. And if I remember right when Arthur Dayne was fighting in the Kingswood his enemy's (Smiling Knight) sword was broken. So maybe Dawn cuts quite easily through steel which would explain why it makes a fighter even more dangerous.

(Thanks, I've always been a huge fan of Conan and Aquilonia, ever since I started reading Howard's work about 20 years ago).

I agree, I think Dawn is some kind of special sword. Of course there have been meteoric iron swords in history, but they have not been common and there is always some sort of legend attached to the weapon. This falls in line with those various sword mythos. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant, as the fact of the matter is that Martin's world is fairly mystical (with magic, white walkers, dragons, etc.) so in this case Dawn does not exactly need a skeptical view of it. Especially since meteoric iron is very high in nickel, and does offer some unique properties to blades. Although a blade forged purely out of meteoric iron is not suitable for even a knife and it has to be mixed with terrestrial iron to be made suitable, as the nickel and iridium content is too high. It would be very hard to do this properly without sufficient knowledge to do so (and it doesn't seem meteoric iron swords are common in Westeros), and so whoever made Dawn, was an exceptionally master smith, and quite possibly had magical knowledge in order to do so (since to properly make a weapon with meteoric iron requires a lot of experience with the material. Out of 10 times trying to make a suitable piece of steel that could be forged into a blade, 9 times the heated ore would crumble to pieces upon being hammered. So either there was a lot of material which allowed this smith to practice on (not likely) before finally making Dawn, or he knew some kinds of spells in order to get it to work).

Dawn has to have been forged magically in my opinion, otherwise there is no possible way that it could have been created in a realistic means.

[Erkan12]

For skilled swordsman, of course that make difference, bu for average sellsword ? I don't think so...

[Blackfish Tully]

As other posters have stated, the quality of a weapon does make a big difference in the wielder's performance. Obviously, it's not going to make a unskilled swordsman into a prodigy, but it's a big advantage over being armed with standard-issue steel. It probably makes for faster kills and more reliable handling in battle, not to mention superior resistance to wear and damage. They're definitely more than mere status symbols.

The fact that Jeor gave it away knowing what it meant is baffling to me. These are among the most valuable family heirlooms in the world, things that are handed down and prized for centuries. Even if Dacey didn't want it, he probably should have thought of Alysane's son.

I do not think that it is a big deal that he gave the sword to John , John is a brother of the Nights Watch and he will have no children to give the sword to so when he dies I'm assuming the next Lord Commander will give the sword back to the Mormounts or maybe keep it himself but I'm assuming that it's understood that the sword is on loan from the Mormounts and cannot be sold or given away without their permmission just like when somebody loans art to a museum.

[StoneBastard]

exactly. Mormont has no heir now that Jorah is exiled so unless he was going to give it to Dacey, Jon makes sense (seeing as how he had saved his life.) Valyrian Steel is lighter (meaning faster) & sharper (meaning more deadly), but that just makes it a better sword. It increases a fighters ability in those two aspects, but it wouldnt make some like Samwell on par with Jon.

One thing to remember on lightness of the blade, that seems to be missed, is the increased endurance of the wielder. Yes, a lighter blade can be much quicker but it also will not tire the fighter out as quickly either. Most swordfights don't last that long in reality, but if two fighters of equal skill should match blows, the Valyrian blade would aid it's fighter with much more strength and endurance and the fight may come down to that.

Also, the Valyrian blades are also called Dragon Steal and thought to be forged of fire. It is pointed out that they may act as obsidian does against the Others......

[StoneBastard]

I don't see how bringing the sword to her brother is removing it from the family's inheritance. Even with all of the vows, the Night's Watchmen don't totally give up their ties with their family. Jeor still thinks of his actual family as his family and talks about Jorah's last honorable act was leaving the sword behind. It doesn't seem like a reach to think that Jeor asked Maege if he could hold on to this sword for a while and she agreed thinking it would be returned on the next visit but it does seem like a stretch that she would agree with the intention of allowing the family heirloom to be taken completely out of the hands of the family.

Jeor also makes Sam promise to tell Jorah to take the Black. On his death bed, the Old Bear is only concerned with his son. Very important in my mind. So much for vows in the end, really.

[PrinceHenryris]

Give me a big hammer and the strength to wield it.

[Teal'c]

I think Jon says it best himself (some time after he becomes LC and starts sparring daily) that he has an amazing sword, and his skill needs to match it to be truly formidable.

I thought you had to use fire to kill a wight, but fire won't kill an Other as easily, so you need obsidian or dragonsteel.

ETA: too lazy to find the quotes

One of the wolves was eating a wight and it only stopped moving when a marrow bone was broken, so that's another way to kill one.

Do we have an instance of beheading as another way to kill a wight, or am I remembering something that didn't actually happen?

At any rate, you can't kill a wight with obsidian because it is too brittle (Sam), so Valyrian steel will be a good all purpose weapon.

[Queen of Spades]

I think here is the crux of the matter. This is one more thing that has been forgotten in 8000 years. People know that Valyrian weapons are precious, and here is why: With a regular sword you can kill a wight; with an obsidian weapon you can kill an Other. With a Valyrian steel weapon you can kill either.

No you can't : only fire can kill a wight.

Ask Ser Jaremy Rykker how a sword fares against a wight...

[Teal'c]

No you can't : only fire can kill a wight. Ask Ser Jaremy Rykker how a sword fares against a wight...

One of the wolves was eating a wight and it only stopped moving when a marrow bone was broken, so that's another way to kill one. Do we have an instance of beheading as another way to kill a wight, or am I remembering something that didn't actually happen? At any rate, you can't kill a wight with obsidian because it is too brittle (Sam), so Valyrian steel will be a good all purpose weapon.

I don't think the wolves are burning wights, and yet they are eating wights. Breaking the marrow bones works. I suspect the wights can do little harm if dismembered or decapitated.

[Lord Over]

This reminds me of a manhwa about two unbeatable swords in this chinese story. The prophecy goes that whomever possess either blade shall be unbeatable except against the other's wielder.

Later on, a wise sage argues that the prohecy is intended to be misleading since whilst the swords can cut anything, they still depend on the wielder's skills....shown by him defeating someone dual wielding them with only a stick.

Valyrian blades really ain't all that special without the skills to back them.

[Mr Stereo1]

I didn't read through the entire thread, so my apologies if this has been brought up already, but it's my understand that swordsmen normally use the side, rather than the edge, of the sword to parry to reduce damage to the blade. If a Valyrian sword is as near-unbreakable as they're made out to be, the wielder wouldn't have to do that, which is another advantage to add to the reduction in weight, which is frankly a mixed blessing because it also reduces the force behind each blow.

[dark sister]

As for the TV show, Ned didn't wield Ice against Jaime. Ice is a greatsword ( two-handed sword), in the fight Ned had a regular longsword.

Hey Mr. Blonde, I liked all that you said about Valyrian steel swords, but this part at the end especially hit me -- I can't remember if they fought one-on-one in the books, but if they did, and both were armed with regular longswords, it shows that Ned truly is modest about his fighting ability. However, I'm sure someone will correct me and say that he never actually came face to face with the Ki ngslayer. I seem to remember that Jaime said "I can't kill you or else they'll kill my brother. So I'll kill all your men." And then Ned tries to fight off the guards.

However, even so, I always thought that Ned was really, really modest about his sword-fighting ability. To cross swords with Dayne and not be cut down pretty much instantly, and then [somehow] defeat him with Howland Reed, says something.

Anyway, to sum it up, Valyrian steel swords give these advantages (in more or less this order, imho):

A.) Extreme prestige to a house, even a minor one -- remember Tywin trying to buy them from many lesser houses and being refused? Apparently they lend a GREAT DEAL of prestige and honor just by possessing them.

B.) If it comes to fighting with them, they are much, much lighter, which unburdens the fighter who is probably clad in armor (which is heavy) and therefore such person can move more quickly than his foe.

C.) The sword is sharp as a dragon's tooth, never needs sharpening, can pierce through mail/armor, and grant victory to opponents who are evenly matched.

This makes me wonder about something else -- perhaps if Rhaegar had had Blackfyre, or even Dark Sister (which was smaller) at the Trident, Robert might have fallen instead of himself, which obviously would have changed history quite a great deal. Rhaegar would be king, Prince Aegon next in line to the throne, Rhaenys and Daenerys would be princesses and never in line for the throne, and Viserys and Jon would be princes, next in line to the throne should Rhaegar's son meet an unexpected death.

Not to mention, there would be no dragons -- which I personally think is a good thing for all the world if you don't know how to train them, which Dany doesn't seem to know how to do. I always thought it was queer that she knew ("some secret knowledge in her blood") how to hatch them, along with a hint from MMD, but no inborn knowledge of how to train them. Or maybe just didn't spend enough time training them.

Unfortunately, I don't know how Robert and Rhaegar matched up as warriors -- everyone said that Rhaegar was pretty excellent, tho not as good as Dayne, while Robert had his immense strength - but strength isn't always everything. Ah well. It's funny, tho, to think that a Valyrian steel sword - which rightly should have belonged to the Targaryens - should have been in Rhaegar's hand. I truly wonder what happened to Dark Sister (and Blackfyre as well, for that matter).

Oh, and I'm sorry to go even more off topic, but what happened to all those beautiful Targaryen crowns that we have seen in the Targaryen king portraits? (I especially like Aenys' crown).

[Tourniquet]

Id like to think that the secret of Valyrian steel is that its actually somehow fusing obsidian and steel. Explains the dark coloration of the steel. Just my own crackpot theory

This is not crackpot in the least...this is especially insightful...

Dragonglass (aka Obsidian) + Steel = Valyrian Steel (aka Dragonsteel)!

[Tourniquet]

(Thanks, I've always been a huge fan of Conan and Aquilonia, ever since I started reading Howard's work about 20 years ago). I agree, I think Dawn is some kind of special sword. Of course there have been meteoric iron swords in history, but they have not been common and there is always some sort of legend attached to the weapon. This falls in line with those various sword mythos. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant, as the fact of the matter is that Martin's world is fairly mystical (with magic, white walkers, dragons, etc.) so in this case Dawn does not exactly need a skeptical view of it. Especially since meteoric iron is very high in nickel, and does offer some unique properties to blades. Although a blade forged purely out of meteoric iron is not suitable for even a knife and it has to be mixed with terrestrial iron to be made suitable, as the nickel and iridium content is too high. It would be very hard to do this properly without sufficient knowledge to do so (and it doesn't seem meteoric iron swords are common in Westeros), and so whoever made Dawn, was an exceptionally master smith, and quite possibly had magical knowledge in order to do so (since to properly make a weapon with meteoric iron requires a lot of experience with the material. Out of 10 times trying to make a suitable piece of steel that could be forged into a blade, 9 times the heated ore would crumble to pieces upon being hammered. So either there was a lot of material which allowed this smith to practice on (not likely) before finally making Dawn, or he knew some kinds of spells in order to get it to work). Dawn has to have been forged magically in my opinion, otherwise there is no possible way that it could have been created in a realistic means.

I love your knowledge of sword lore...but sometimes I think we look to deeply at this stuff.

We should accept that in ASOIaF

Dawn >= Valyrian Steel

Valyrian Steel > Castle Forged Steel

Castle Forged Steel > Other Steel

And I think that the lightness of Valyrian Steel COMBINED with its increased sharpness negates the effects of less mass...as F=ma if you can reduce the "m" by a significant portion as to increase "a" at a larger rate than F will be larger therefore doing more damage...this is if Newtonian physics is applicable to ASOIaF

[Teal'c]

This is not crackpot in the least...this is especially insightful... Dragonglass (aka Obsidian) + Steel = Valyrian Steel (aka Dragonsteel)!

I like this idea.

[Pallantides]

I love your knowledge of sword lore...but sometimes I think we look to deeply at this stuff. We should accept that in ASOIaF Dawn >= Valyrian Steel Valyrian Steel > Castle Forged Steel Castle Forged Steel > Other Steel And I think that the lightness of Valyrian Steel COMBINED with its increased sharpness negates the effects of less mass...as F=ma if you can reduce the "m" by a significant portion as to increase "a" at a larger rate than F will be larger therefore doing more damage...this is if Newtonian physics is applicable to ASOIaF

Sharpness in a sword itself doesn't matter all that much. It just makes a cleaner wound, than a sword that is not as sharp. Take a cutthroat razor, or a scalpel for example. They are probably the sharpest you can ever get a metal blade. But obviously they are going to be incapable of doing what a sword can do. Both in regards to the weight and length of each. Once you get into the realm of weights that would be significant, you find that the sword is featherlight, and basically functions much in the same way a fencing foil would. The only logical explanation, if a Valyrian sword is significantly lighter than a standard sword, is that it has some magical properties to it. Otherwise the weight factor of the sword is a relative non-issue, as they would be so close in weight that any advantage is negligible.

[Harle The Handsome]

One of the wolves was eating a wight and it only stopped moving when a marrow bone was broken, so that's another way to kill one.

I don't think it was breaking the marrow that explicitly killed the wights, but the fact that their flesh had been ground up by the wolves' teeth, making their muscles incapable of basic motor functions.

[Lord Over]

I've finished the Game of Thrones RPG and the in-game explanation is that the only thing that can counter Melisandre's Shadow Babies (or any Shadow Baby) is a Valyrian steel blade. Of course, this could be simply an in-game explanation but it did make me ponder if Valyrian steel is effective against other types of magic from across Westeros to Essos.

[kephv]

I've finished the Game of Thrones RPG and the in-game explanation is that the only thing that can counter Melisandre's Shadow Babies (or any Shadow Baby) is a Valyrian steel blade. Of course, this could be simply an in-game explanation but it did make me ponder if Valyrian steel is effective against other types of magic from across Westeros to Essos.

Considering they're spell-forged, I think there's probably some magical properties to them that we haven't heard about yet. About the game though, GRRM has said that anything not from the books or D&E stories shouldn't be considered canon.