[ADwD Spoilers] Borroq - x

[flinky]

Borroq - From Reddit.com

pretty surprised i havent seen this on this before. i only read his posts after about 20mins (Caeg - the bold blue ones).

very very intriguing.

Enjoy if you havent seen yet

edit: title

[The Dornishman's Wife]

It's a well written post, I enjoyed reading it and I thank you for linking it. Still, the idea that Borroq alone could warg a whole group of people at once, while intriguing, extrapolates the mechanics of magic we've learned about in the books to a point where even the sturdiest pots begin to crack.

There have been some people arguing for supernatural factors in Jon's assassination, mainly focussing on the gesture that made Jon think of a "it wasn't me". And while I personally think that the natural causes interpretation is perfectly convincing, they might of course be right. But even if they are, it would take more than Borroq to pull off something of that scale.

Still, I do agree with the linked post that Borroq may very well have some role to play. For example, it could be in guiding Jon from Ghost back to his body, as Borroq is now the guy at the wall with the most knowledge of skinchanging.

[flinky]

he later explained in the second part that though unlikely, he must have been going from one to the other because they attack in waves.

the part i like the most is how he describes that the prologue was there for a reason, not to just show Sixskins. Human warging shown possible and that Borroq might be the next step over Sixskins as a warg. if he went into them to begin with in their sleep it might have seemed more like a nightmare and where he states that he could, for all we know, have been the one to force the others at Craster's to kill x-LC Mormont.

[flinky]

"Ser Patrek was there to steal away the wildling Princess Val, because Jon had mentioned to him how the wildling women only go for a man if they have been 'taken'. He went to go try and take Val, and Wun Wun was there, leading to the riot. This was there because this fulfills part of the prophecy of being born under a bleeding star (Ser Patrek's sigil was a star) and gives the steward the chance to catch Jon off guard, which is partly why he couldn't pull out his sword in time." - Zamma111

at the bottom: is very intuitive for how misleading the prophesies are, i didn't think ot take into account the sigils that way tbh

[Nahlim]

While the idea isn't impossible, I don't think that's what happened.

For some reason, I believe GRRM tried to show us, throughout the book, that the Wildlings are better companions for John, than the other men of the Night's Watch.

I believe Melisandre tells him something about his friends being the actual enemies (not so explicitly though) when she tells him about what she had seen in the fires.

at the bottom: is very intuitive for how misleading the prophesies are, i didn't think ot take into account the sigils that way tbh

I agree. Most of the prophecies are symbolic and refer to the family sigils (the one about Catelyn's death... or the Quaithe prophecies...)

[flinky]

why have the prologue then? an entire chapter on a wight remembers? the eagle/hawk?

i hope more people post in this by the time i get back from mommy time lol

[Jayaris]

why have the prologue then? an entire chapter on a wight remembers? the eagle/hawk?

i hope more people post in this by the time i get back from mommy time lol

Two problems that I immediately see are:

There were more suggestible individuals to warg on hand.

Why warg four people to stab a guy once, instead of warging one guy to stab a guy four times?

As far as the over mentioning of Borroq in the text :

He might play a more significant role in the future. (Warg Mentoring for Jon, something nefarious)

[Onion Smuggler]

It's a very interesting theory, well argued too. So is the OP saying that Melisandre and Borroq were in league? That they both had a hand in this, I'm confused because Melisandre killed Orell through his Eagle? Seems to me that she isn't a fan of wargs.

[Ser Giant]

I always thought Ghost was pissed at the boar because someone was warged into it.

After reading that, I don't see why it wasnt brought up that there couldnt be a wilding for each NW stabber. Skinchanging is obviously prevelant enough to have a group of skinchangers plan something like that.

[Bran Snow]

The point of the prologue was to set a president for wargs living on in their animal when they die. This is supported by the vision Mel had in her flames of a man, a wolf, a ma again. I would assume that GRRM is foreshadowing Jon spending time in Ghost before coming back.

Borroq being mentioned was to give a reason to leave Ghost locked up. If he wasn't there, the readers would be why was Ghost locked up, why wasn't he with Jon.

[Nahlim]

If he wasn't there, the readers would be why was Ghost locked up, why wasn't he with Jon.

I agree with your point of view.

Btw how annoying is that the Stark children didn't realize yet that they should NEVER be apart form their direwolves?!? I mean, Cat realized it right away, why don't they? -.-

[Lummel]

Very unlikely theory.

We have on the one hand increasing disatisfaction, unhappiness and fear on the part of officers of the watch principally Bowen Marsh through the narrative of Jon's chapters up to Jon XIII, on the other hand a boar-warg with no motive to harm Jon - in fact the opposite since Jon was instrumental in saving him and thousands of Wildlings from the situation north of the Wall.

Plus from Bran's warging attempts with Hodor and the prologue with Varamyr Sixskins we know it is incredibly difficult to warg a person and that if Borroq wanted to kill Jon the easy way to do it would have been to attempt to warg him directly and watch him scratch his own eyes out like Thistle.

So no.

[Ser Ash the Red]

This is not going to happen. Borroq is the only wildling skinchanger to come south of the wall. His probable purpose is to besides providing a purpose for Ghost to be tied up, is to reveal the second life so that Jon can be revived from Ghost.

[flinky]

Very unlikely theory.

We have on the one hand increasing disatisfaction, unhappiness and fear on the part of officers of the watch principally Bowen Marsh through the narrative of Jon's chapters up to Jon XIII, on the other hand a boar-warg with no motive to harm Jon - in fact the opposite since Jon was instrumental in saving him and thousands of Wildlings from the situation north of the Wall.

Plus from Bran's warging attempts with Hodor and the prologue with Varamyr Sixskins we know it is incredibly difficult to warg a person and that if Borroq wanted to kill Jon the easy way to do it would have been to attempt to warg him directly and watch him scratch his own eyes out like Thistle.

So no.

Thistle tried to scratch out Sixskins eyes while he was in her:

"She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes."

"When he tried to scream, she spit out their tongue."

it would have been too obvious if he was directly warged into Jon, but he did manage to slightly control Thistle from a start - just enough for soneone to grab a knife and thrust it before going into another person and repeating it - they may have still had their daggers drawn from when they say the giant. he did get the feeling that she knew what he was going to do while the men of the NW didn't

i don't like the analogy of Jon Snow to Jesus; i just dont see its relevence, to anyhting for that matter. the link may be meant for a different link in all honesty.

This is not going to happen. Borroq is the only wildling skinchanger to come south of the wall. His probable purpose is to besides providing a purpose for Ghost to be tied up, is to reveal the second life so that Jon can be revived from Ghost.

from what we saw with Sixskins and his teacher Haggon; if Jon goes into Ghost, Borroq could just warg into ghost and end his second life.

one of the main things that does refute this is that Sixskins said he was better than Borroq when he was at the wildling/warg meeting - saying if he had tusks he would look just like his boar but they. for all we know he could be able to continue warging after he went into One-Eye.

when he was flying around jumping from creature ot creature, even seeing Bran and crew, all the animals he encountered knew he was there - the direwolf snarled at him even. but it all comes down to streatching the story to make it resemble what you want it, eventually the rubberband will break as well.

[Longspear Ryk]

why would Borroq want Jon dead?

i thought the reason Ghost disliked the boar was because he was a boar... and he's a wolf... and Ghost wanted to eat him..

that or i assumed it wasn't the boar that was the issue but the people around Jon that Ghost had beef with

edit: honestly you would think by now one of the Stark kids would learn to trust their dire wolf's instincts...

[Lummel]

Flinky,

Warging directly into Jon is the easiest way to get rid of him - even if Jon survives being warged he's going to be written off as insane. The behaviour of the officers of the watch is nothing like the behaviour of Hodor or Thistle when initially warged Borroq would have to be the greatest warg in the series so far to accomplish the smooth warging of four people in sequence and we know that he hasn't had the time to build up a warg relationship as Bran does with Hodor.

The link is deliberate on my part. John 13 and Jon XIII both dealing with the betrayal of the central character by those closest to him is, I suspect, a deliberate parallel, certainly co-incidence is not a word I associate with GRRM :). Plus it holds out the hope of a return for Jon to the reader.

[Balintos]

Flinky,

Warging directly into Jon is the easiest way to get rid of him - even if Jon survives being warged he's going to be written off as insane.

Is it possible to warg a warg? I'm not sure.

[Free Northman]

We can end this thread right now.

Varamyr states that he was the most powerful skinchanger amongst the wildlings. He specifically includes Borroq in his thoughts when making this statement.

And Varamyr couldn't even successfully take over a starving old woman when his life itself was at stake.

There is no way that Borroq could do what is suggested in this theory.

The only reason for Borroq's presence was to have a convenient reason why Ghost was not present during the assassination, so that Jon could later warg into Ghost to survive.

[flinky]

We can end this thread right now.

Varamyr states that he was the most powerful skinchanger amongst the wildlings. He specifically includes Borroq in his thoughts when making this statement.

And Varamyr couldn't even successfully take over a starving old woman when his life itself was at stake.

There is no way that Borroq could do what is suggested in this theory.

The only reason for Borroq's presence was to have a convenient reason why Ghost was not present during the assassination, so that Jon could later warg into Ghost to survive.

this would be the first time in the book series that a character is unreliable? - let alone a 10 year old who, from the sound and tone of why his father killed their dogs, warged into a dog and killed his brother. at the time when he made the statement he was being taught how ot use his warg skills and not being allowed to warg into people while Haggon was alive. i would think that someone who does not have someone always telling them "Abomination." about human warging would be practicing it.

he could practice it and no one would ever know where he was while dooing it. he would not have ot be staring them in the face using the last of his strength like Sixskins did. he could be in his cave or in a tree for that matter; safe from the person he was warging into and if they did happen to look for him he could use hog-zilla on them or get a different animal.

they wouldn't go insane - Hodor goes back to being Hodor when Bran leaves him. who is to say that a normal person wouldnt too?

Sixskins seemed to have a part of Orel and Haggon in his head because he took over/ended their second lives. He honestly seems to be schitzophrenic with them talking to him.

you can white flag all you want - the more you read into it form what we are given in the book, the more it seems relevent than having a chapter in a direwolf POV - isnt that the reason Rickon is not a POV character? "OOOOO that smels good!!! Im a dog now, that smells nice!!! Walk? OMGOMGOMG WE ARE GOING FOR A WALK OMGOMGOMG!!!! Ball? Did you say ball? OMGOMG!!! IMMA GET DAH BALL!!!!" That is what goes on in my boxer's head, just mix in food and naps with walk or ball.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

We can end this thread right now.

Varamyr states that he was the most powerful skinchanger amongst the wildlings. He specifically includes Borroq in his thoughts when making this statement.

And Varamyr couldn't even successfully take over a starving old woman when his life itself was at stake.

There is no way that Borroq could do what is suggested in this theory.

The only reason for Borroq's presence was to have a convenient reason why Ghost was not present during the assassination, so that Jon could later warg into Ghost to survive.

Exactly