What evidence we have about Rhaegar not kidnapping Lyanna?

[Teal'c]

That is a very interesting point. Having just read the books, working on the third read, and being new to the boards I never thought of that being such an analogy of events. It does fit and even includes problematic parents. Jeyne's mom, YIKES!!! One other little point I've been thinking of.........I think it's a giant anvil that the name of the place where Lyanna was is called THE TOWER OF JOY. They say Rhaegar is really tall.......maybe it's also a double entendre and pet nickname for Rhaegar from his Lady Love Lyanna. :drool:

OMG I can't believe it took me so long to get the phallic reference there! :blushing:

[Lady Winter Rose]

And him showing sympathy to her is supposed to repel her? I always though that if the object of someone's crush reciprocates the feelings, they're likely to further develop, not cease to exist.

No. Raping and kindnapping her would made her repel. Gibberish talk about prophecy she never heard would.

Not sure that this would fit under the description of "wild blood that led her to an early grave", not to mention the fact the if Ned found her on her deathbed, she was hardly inclined to share details with him.

Who said Lyanna told Eddard every detail. Maybe Eddard heard it from anyone who witness kidnapping.

And how did she get by these flowers? Did the supposed rapist care enough to provide her with her favourite flowers? And how did he know they were her favourite? And why did she hold to them even on her deathbed, if they were from the man who had caused her all that misery? It doesn't make sense. Even if the winter roses were her favourites, I don't think she would keep them if they were a gift from a rapist - I 'd sure dump them in my nightpot.

Stockholm syndrome.

I think conext is very important here. Ned is pissed and disgusted with Robert's whoring, and the comment comes out as positive towards Rhaegar - which, again, does not make any sense if Rhaegar is the guy who raped Ned's sister, but makes very much sense if Rhaegar was her lover/husband.

He isn't positive. He is just ironic.

It would be logical to paint Rhaegar as another monster. It's not convenient for the winners to believe that Rhaegar was, basically, a good guy. All the contrary, it's quite inconvenient. Yet the only one to really believe in the "crazy rapist" theory was Robert.

Not only Robert. Bran calls Rhaegar a rapist. Winner side call Rhaegar a rapist. Even if Bran heard it from his father's soldiers.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Bran heard the story at least ten years after it happened. And Ned is the single most interested Lord in spreading Bos official truth. Bran is definitely unreliable.

[TWR]

Grown noble males are still seen as property. Nearly all of the noble males are not married to women of their choosing. Brandon was betrothed to Cat, even though he did not choose it. Stannis was told to marry Selyse (his father was dead and so Robert was his Lord) even though he clearly did not want it. The Blackfish was given the same option as Lysa by Hoster tully - either marry who Hoster chose or leave. Tywin hated Tyrion but went to war when he was taken by Cat as Tyrion was still "Lannister Property" despite any personal feelings. I'm unsure what you mean by "Lyanna couldn't abduct Rhaegar if he went consensually." If one goes consensually, it's not abduction no matter what gender. I think if the tables were turned and it was Rhaegar who disappeared into the North, Aerys would surely think that the Starks had abducted him. The reason Brandon was crying "kidnap" is because he knew nothing except that Lyanna had disappeared.

I'm glad I'm not the only who thinks this way.

Rob died for doing essentially doing the same thing Lyanna did, if she truly did go willingly.

Now that I think about it, I can't think of any nobles that actually married for "love".

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not only Robert. Bran calls Rhaegar a rapist. Winner side call Rhaegar a rapist. Even if Bran heard it from his father's soldiers.

You seriously think Bran is a reliable source of information on something that happened before he was even born? While talking about Lyanna, he also gets details of Rickard and Brandon's deaths wrong.

There is no solid evidence — none, at all, besides Robert's bitterness and Bran's rumors — that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

[bloodymime]

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but for me the sweet smell of the blue rose on a wall of ice in the house of the undying ,that is widely considered to symbolize Jon ,is not foreshadowing of a possible love between Jon and Dany but rather a way to symbolize that Jon was born from love.Just my opinion and obviously not evidence of course. Also ther's the fact that Jon being trueborn seems to be the only way to explain the presence of the King's guard at the tower of joy and that would mean Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Off topic but about this quote: "There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." I believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son but I've always wondered how Ned could have spent several years not thinking once about the father of the nephew whose father he's pretending to be.

Why would he think about Rhaegar? Even if he is Jon's father Ned didn't know him. You get a sense Ned does a lot of burying when it comes to the past and tries to think about it as little as possible despite all the troubled sleep it still gives him.

Also to the person that thought of that line as an irony, you might be right but considering the situation Ned thinks it in, being in a whorehouse with yet another of Robert's bastard children, it seems a pretty clear comparison between Robert and Rhaegar and despite how much Ned loved Robert as a brother he certainly had a higher opinion of Rhaegar, a stranger to him outside of Lyanna, at least in matters concerning women.

[Lady Winter Rose]

You seriously think Bran is a reliable source of information on something that happened before he was even born? While talking about Lyanna, he also gets details of Rickard and Brandon's deaths wrong.

There is no solid evidence — none, at all, besides Robert's bitterness and Bran's rumors — that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

It's irrelevant how reliable is he. I just want to point out that winner side did call Rhaegar a rapist.

Everyone who said he didn't were in Targ camp.

[mcb]

Not only Robert. Bran calls Rhaegar a rapist.

Come on. You're grasping straws. Bran? A young boy born several years after the events we're discussing? He knows even less than we do.

Did you notice that you're failing in your mission to convince anyone to your "crazy rapist Rhaegar" theory, and that you use extremely thin arguments? Lyanna suffering Stockholm Syndrome (out of character: Arya in captivity grows to hate her captors more, not less). Ned being ironic (when ever had Lord Eddard been ironic?). Bran's third hand knowledge and Robert's prejudices trumping opinions of pretty much all other characters in the books.

Are you at least convinced yourself? Cause, realistically, that's the most you're going to achieve in this thread.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's irrelevant how reliable is he. I just want to point out that winner side did call Rhaegar a rapist.

So? If two armies fight and the winner says that grass is purple, does that make it true?

Everyone who said he didn't were in Targ camp.

Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist. Barristan also never thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist. Why are you so eager to take Robert's propaganda as fact, but not what the Targ campers thought?

[Ygrain]

Hmm, let’s take a look at the whole chain of argumentation:

corbon:

Evidence for Lyanna liking Rhaega:

- sniffling at his music, being teased by little brother and her reaction to that tease - very much sound like the start of a crush

'Lady of the Dawn Beauty: That happend before he show sympathy to her. And tried to have sleep with her to knock her down so she could bear a child destinated to fight monsters.

Ygrain:

And him showing sympathy to her is supposed to repel her? I always though that if the object of someone's crush reciprocates the feelings, they're likely to further develop, not cease to exist

Lady of the Dawn Beauty:

No. Raping and kindnapping her would made her repel. Gibberish talk about prophecy she never heard would.

- In other words, you claim that Lyanna can’t have loved Rhaegar and eloped with him because he kidnapped and raped her? That’s kinda, er, circular timeline.

And, would you please share your source of information that Rhaegar made unwanted advances on her prior the supposed kidnapping? This is definitely nowhere in my set books. The same for the prophecy gibberish – and here I’d expect someone as educated as Rhaegar to be able to express himself articulatedly.

Stockholm syndrome.

Wait a sec. First you claimed that she had the roses to help her overcome the horrors of rape, and now you claim Stockholm syndrome. Aren’t these two mental states sort of mutually exclusive?

Not only Robert. Bran calls Rhaegar a rapist. Winner side call Rhaegar a rapist. Even if Bran heard it from his father's soldiers.

Sure, because they were all there and saw with their own eyes. Or didn't they?

[Lady Winter Rose]

Come on. You're reaching straws. Bran? A young boy born several years after the events we're discussing? He knows even less than we do.

Did you notice that you're failing in your mission to convince anyone to your "crazy rapist Rhaegar" theory, and that you use extremely thin arguments? Lyanna suffering Stockholm Syndrome (out of character: Arya in captivity grows to hate her captors more, not less). Ned being ironic (when ever had Lord Eddard been ironic?). Bran's third hand knowledge and Robert's prejudices trumping opinions of pretty much all other characters in the books.

Are you at least convinced yourself? Cause, realistically, that's the most you're going to achieve in this thread.

So? If two armies fight and the winner says that grass is purple, does that make it true?

Ygrain said winners don't call Rhaegar a rapist. And that this is the proof that nobody sees Rhaegar as rapist. I said they do. I am not calling them reliable.

Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist. Barristan also never thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist.

No, Eddard never thinks Rhaegar wasn't a rapist. He just think Rhaegar never visited brothels. Barristan is in Targ camp.

Hmm, let’s take a look at the whole chain of argumentation:

corbon:

Evidence for Lyanna liking Rhaega:

- sniffling at his music, being teased by little brother and her reaction to that tease - very much sound like the start of a crush

'Lady of the Dawn Beauty: That happend before he show sympathy to her. And tried to have sleep with her to knock her down so she could bear a child destinated to fight monsters.

Ygrain:

And him showing sympathy to her is supposed to repel her? I always though that if the object of someone's crush reciprocates the feelings, they're likely to further develop, not cease to exist

Lady of the Dawn Beauty:

No. Raping and kindnapping her would made her repel. Gibberish talk about prophecy she never heard would.

- In other words, you claim that Lyanna can’t have loved Rhaegar and eloped with him because he kidnapped and raped her? That’s kinda, er, circular timeline.

I am claiming Lyanna might find Rhaegar charming when he sings at Harrenhall. But she might not wanting to evelope with him. She might not wanting to be Queen of Love and Beauty because this was a scandal. No-one was pleased with this.

And, would you please share your source of information that Rhaegar made unwanted advances on her prior the supposed kidnapping? This is definitely nowhere in my set books. The same for the prophecy gibberish – and here I’d expect someone as educated as Rhaegar to be able to express himself articulatedly.

Unwanted advances... queening her as Queen of Love of Beauty. Because that was a scandal. Someone said all smiles died when prince pass his own wife.

If I meet Robert Pattison and he tells me that he read a ancient prophecie which tells he will lead a war against darkness and I just need to bear a child... it would repel me off.

Wait a sec. First you claimed that she had the roses to help her overcome the horrors of rape, and now you claim Stockholm syndrome. Aren’t these two mental states sort of mutually exclusive?

I change my mind.

Sure, because they were all there and saw with their own eyes. Or didn't they?

You said no-one is seeing Rhaegar as a rapist exept Robert and I show you Bran.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You said no-one is seeing Rhaegar as a rapist exept Robert and I show you Bran.

Bran who isn't a firsthand witness and is only parroting back propaganda that he heard.

You have to realize how weak your argument is here.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Bran who isn't a firsthand witness and is only parroting back propaganda that he heard.

As everyone is parroting back propaganda that they heard from they liege lords. Ygrain said nobody said Rhaegar is a rapist. She has no weak argument?

[Dragonfish]

It's irrelevant how reliable is he. I just want to point out that winner side did call Rhaegar a rapist. Everyone who said he didn't were in Targ camp.

Uh, no, this isn't true. Cersei wasn't in the Targ camp, and she remembers Rhaegar positively. Jaime recalls Rhaegar positively, and he killed Rhaegar's father. He actually has every reason to think badly of Rhaegar, so that he can assuage his guilt a bit, yet still he remembers Rhaegar positively. Ser Jorah also says positive things about Rhaegar, and he fought on Ned's side in the Rebellion. The only person who was truly in the Targ camp and who says positive things about Rhaegar is Ser Barristan; however, his "testimony" cannot simply be dismissed out of hand due to some supposed "bias", because he is shown to be honest about Aerys' madness. And if he is honest about Aerys' madness, then there is no reason for not to be honest about Rhaegar's sins, if the man was indeed a rapist.

[Dragonfish]

Maybe she made her kidnapping even worse.

Think about this one, long and hard. Ned loved his sister dearly. Her death is one of his most painful memories. If Rhaegar indeed kidnapped her and raped her to death, then what would possibly make Ned believe it was all somehow her fault? Can you imagine Ned blaming a rape victim for her own death, under any circumstances? What kind of message is he sending to his daughter, here?

[bloodymime]

If I meet Robert Pattison and he tells me that he read a ancient prophecie which tells he will lead a war against darkness and I just need to bear a child... it would repel me off.

You don't live in a land with a seven hundred foot wall of ice, white walkers, dragons and magic either.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Think about this one, long and hard. Ned loved his sister dearly. Her death is one of his most painful memories. If Rhaegar indeed kidnapped her and raped her to death, then what would possibly make Ned believe it was all somehow her fault? Can you imagine Ned blaming a rape victim for her own death, under any circumstances? What kind of message is he sending to his daughter, here?

You are over thinking it. Ned is not blaming his sister at all. Perhaps he was talking about her beauty or her desire to see new places.It could be as simple as her going south with her brothers.

[The Other Knight]

As everyone is parroting back propaganda that they heard from they liege lords. Ygrain said nobody said Rhaegar is a rapist. She has no weak argument?

Perhaps I am wrong here, but I always assumed Bran read or was taught this information.

Who in their right mind would contradict their king on this subject? Ned, who most probably knows the truth, wouldn't utter anything to the contrary.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As everyone is parroting back propaganda that they heard from they liege lords. Ygrain said nobody said Rhaegar is a rapist. She has no weak argument?

Who, other than Robert — who's blinded by a personal vendetta — and Bran — who's misinformed — say that Rhaegar is a rapist?

Like Dragonfish said, Ned, Jaime, Jorah and Cersei all remember Rhaegar fondly and consider him to have been a good person and a good future king. As does Barristan, who you (wrongfully, I think) dismiss out of hand because of whose "side" he was on, completely ignoring his propensity so far to be honest about who the Targs were and who Aerys was.

[Dragonfish]

You are over thinking it. Ned is not blaming his sister at all. Perhaps he was talking about her beauty or her desire to see new places.It could be as simple as her going south with her brothers.

I'm not overthinking it, you are underthinking it because this quote is inconvenient for your position. Here it is in full, so we all know what we're arguing about:

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time."

Notice that Ned likens Lyanna's "wolf blood" to a certain wildness, the same wildness that was in Brandon. He also notes she was willful, and he connects this willfulness (along with her wolf blood) to her death. Now, after reading this quote in full, can you honestly still argue that Ned is referring here to Lyanna going south with her brothers? The implication is quite strong that she was directly complicit in her own downfall. The idea that Ned would possibly claim she is partly responsible for own death, simply because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, is simply laughable.