What evidence we have about Rhaegar not kidnapping Lyanna?

[l3ol3o]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the Rhaegar raped Lyanna comes from Robert/Ned. I think the truth was she ran away with him and they were both in love. If Rhaegar didn't even visit brothels, I doubt he went around raping high born women. I think Ned knew the truth of this but kept it quite for Jons sake as well as Roberts. Robert may of known the truth as well deep down but it hurt him too much to admit it.

[facetree]

Besides, won't it be a bit callous to name the tower "The Tower of Joy" when you're raping a woman inside it?

[Silmarien]

I think the fact that the only source we have is really Robert (Bran didn't even EXIST then) is quite telling. Robert wasn't even there, and didn't seem very emotionally connected to Lyanna (see The Ned's memory of how Lyanna viewed Robert and his bastards...)

Honestly I didn't really believe Dany's thoughts on the subject either, because 1) Viserys told her, and 2) She wasn't born yet!

[l3ol3o]

I think the fact that the only source we have is really Robert (Bran didn't even EXIST then) is quite telling. Robert wasn't even there, and didn't seem very emotionally connected to Lyanna (see The Ned's memory of how Lyanna viewed Robert and his bastards...)

Honestly I didn't really believe Dany's thoughts on the subject either, because 1) Viserys told her, and 2) She wasn't born yet!

Exactly. The sources of the rape story is very questionable. Even if Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar, Robert would be so pissed that he would probably start a story saying Rhaegar raped her as an excuse to war.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Besides, won't it be a bit callous to name the tower "The Tower of Joy" when you're raping a woman inside it?

Frankly, it is a bit callous even if the two of them were really in love, considering the circunstances.

[Silmarien]

Frankly, it is a bit callous even if the two of them were really in love, considering the circunstances.

But why? If they were in love.... :dunno:

[The guy from the Vale]

Also, the Tower might have been named before the war broke out, or at least before R+L heard of what ha happened...

[Roxy]

That is hardly the only evidence. We also have Lyanna's ambivalence about being betrothed to Robert, her tearful reaction to Rhaegar's singing, and most tellingly (IMO), Ned's comment that her "wolf blood" led her to an early grave (why would he make this comment if she was simply a rape victim?). There's also Ned's recollection of Lyanna clutching blue roses as she lay dying, the same kind that Rhaegar gave her. This is pretty obvious symbolism that Lyanna was attached to Rhaegar.

I just don’t see how any of that is evidence that she ran away with him willingly.

Let’s start with her ambivalence toward her betrothal to Robert. She knew he wouldn’t be faithful to her because he was already sleeping around a ton at the time. Why would she run away with a man who was married with two children? Why would she help a man be unfaithful to his wife when she already looked down on her own fiancé because she could already see him cheating on her in the future? That just doesn’t make any sense. Plus, she knows love can’t change a man’s nature. If he cheats on his wife, he will cheat on her as well. So the fact that she is ambivalent toward her relationship with Robert is proof against her willingly running away with a married man.

Clutching blue roses isn’t iron clad either. It could mean she’s holding on to the roses the man she loved gave her before he left. Or it could mean she’s holding on to this only reminder of her homeland that she has. Rhaegar could have given them to her out of kindness and/or a way to gain her affection. Either way, we don’t have enough evidence besides our own personal speculations to determine either way.

The “wolf blood” comment could suggest that she made the decision to run away with him. Or it could suggest that she refused to be passive while she was kidnapped and raped, which resulted in physical abuse that resulted in her death. My spec is that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar found her, which solidified his decision to take her and make the third head of the dragon with her. But again, we don’t have enough evidence to know for sure on any of this.

That's not the point. The point is that Ned, who generally thinks of brothel-patronizing as a vice, would not be inclined that think that his sister's rapist did not have vices of his own. The fact that he figures Rhaegar didn't go to brothels implies that Ned sees something virtuous in Rhaegar.

Ned never says Rhaegar doesn’t have any vices. He just guessed (because he doesn’t know) that he didn’t have that particular one.

Again, not the point. No one is arguing that Rhaegar couldn't have raped anyone because he was popular. The point is that if he really did live up to the praise that people lay on him, then he probably was not the type to commit rape. At the very least, it implies that not everyone believes the rape story, and therefore their perspectives act as a counterpoint to Robert and Bran's perspectives.

So that is if he lived up to the praise. Like the R+L=J fans keep saying, this book is filled with unreliable narrators. We as readers don’t know if he lived up to their praise on not. As for it implying that not everyone believes in the rape story, where? Where do any of the characters say that Rhaegar didn’t rape Lyanna? Unless there’s a quote from a character saying they don’t think it happened, then it’s just fans deciding that that’s the meaning.

You cannot infer from Bran's comment that everyone believes he raped her. At most you can infer that certain residents of Winterfell, maybe even all them, believe that. But that makes perfect sense; it is common for soldiers to demonize their enemies, after all. However, just because people in Winterfell believes this, that doesn't mean that everyone believes it. In all likelihood people's opinions diverge from region to region. At the very least, the idea that Rhaegar loved Lyanna is definitely out there, since the Elder Brother from the Quiet Isle tells Brienne that the Trident is described by singers as a battle between two men over a woman they both claimed to love.

That’s true, the story could be different from region to region. But it does show that not just Robert thinks so. Someone (Ned, Maester Luwin, Cat ???) told him this. But I do think that Rhaegar could have been in love with or believed to be in love with Lyanna. What other reason could people give for him kidnapping her?

We don't know the full context behind this. A lot of people thought Jaime was a jerk for killing Aerys, yet when the third book revealed his true reasons for doing so, many people's opinions changed. I don't think we know enough about what happened about the tourney at Harrenhal to draw any firm conclusions yet. It is entirely possible, for instance, that Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna was not intended to slight Elia, but to honor Lyanna for her actions as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

I agree. We don’t have enough evidence and we don’t have the full context of any of this. That is kind of my main point. I honestly don’t think this theory that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and ran away with him has enough evidence to be bandied around as fact like it seems to be here. Yet, despite this being just a theory that hasn’t been revealed to be true yet, you have people saying things like this:

Lol @ this whole post

I was about to destroy it but Dragonfish already beat me to it.

If someone’s opinion doesn’t match your own or if someone thinks there isn’t enough evidence yet to make a definitive judgment on it, does that really mean their opinion deserves to be laughed at and “destroyed”? I think that’s a serious problem here if it does, but RenlyWasNotGay seems to think that’s the way things should go.

But anyway, to sum it up, I think most of the “evidence” about Lyanna willingly running away with Rhaegar is more fan speculation that than actual canon. It really relies a lot on the reader “implying” things or taking a leap in thought to connect ideas. But, obviously, that’s just my opinion.

[RhaenysBee]

The only person who claims so is Robert. And Robert was practically given some horns by the girl he loved. Of course he wants to believe it was all Rhaegar's fault. That way it's a tragic love story not just getting a nice big pair of horns.

Anyway, the proof is Eddard. And his lack of hatred for Targaryens. I know what Eddard thinks, because he is a POV character and he never thinks ill of Rhaegar or any Targaryen at all, in fact. Surely is the man DID kidnap and rape his sister he wouldn't be so apologetic. When Robert talks to him about Rhaegar raping Lyanna he doesn't say anything. Doesn't even think You bastard Rhaegar.

Anyway, nobody (meaning Jaime, Selmy) remembers Rhaegar as someone who would kidnap a woman against her will.

I personally need no further evidence. It's no question Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar.

[Lady Hummingbird]

Just the thought of Rhaegar's dead children made Ned sick, he refuse to be the Hand of the King because Robert wanted to kill Daenerys, don't you think that he would have a bit more rage inside of him for the family of the man who ruined his little sister?

Lyanna was a strong woman, she would have put up a fight, she would have tried to escape, at the very least she would have killed herself first.

[Dragonfish]

I just don’t see how any of that is evidence that she ran away with him willingly.

That's because you're rationalizing it all away. You could do that with any theory, even R+L=J.

Seriously, put all of these clues together:

1) Lyanna's ambivalence toward Robert

2) Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song

3) Lyanna's clutching the rose petals Rhaegar gave her

4) Eddard's statement about Lyanna's wolf blood leading her to an early grave

5) Numerous characters' praise of Rhaegar

6) The Kingsguards presence at the ToJ (I neglected to include this earlier), which implies that Jon was legitimate, and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married

Now connect the dots. It's pretty easy to draw a straight line between these hints and the conclusion that Lyanna loved Rhaegar, but it's more difficult to draw a straight line to the conclusion that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

Let’s start with her ambivalence toward her betrothal to Robert. She knew he wouldn’t be faithful to her because he was already sleeping around a ton at the time. Why would she run away with a man who was married with two children? Why would she help a man be unfaithful to his wife when she already looked down on her own fiancé because she could already see him cheating on her in the future? That just doesn’t make any sense. Plus, she knows love can’t change a man’s nature. If he cheats on his wife, he will cheat on her as well. So the fact that she is ambivalent toward her relationship with Robert is proof against her willingly running away with a married man.

The difference is that Robert was a serial womanizer, whereas Rhaegar was (presumably) not. His marriage to Elia was not one he chose, and there was no love between the two of them (which is not to say they didn't like each other). I think that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing the same thing in running off together: turning away from the political marriages they were forced into, and choosing to marry the one they loved.

Clutching blue roses isn’t iron clad either. It could mean she’s holding on to the roses the man she loved gave her before he left. Or it could mean she’s holding on to this only reminder of her homeland that she has. Rhaegar could have given them to her out of kindness and/or a way to gain her affection. Either way, we don’t have enough evidence besides our own personal speculations to determine either way.

The blue rose symbol involves Rhaegar about as much as it does Lyanna. Pretty much every other time the image is brought up, it refers to both of them.

The “wolf blood” comment could suggest that she made the decision to run away with him. Or it could suggest that she refused to be passive while she was kidnapped and raped, which resulted in physical abuse that resulted in her death.

I'm sorry, I have a hard time believing that Ned would think Lyanna was partially responsible for her own demise because she fought back against her kidnappers. The fault there would lie with the people who were holding her captive.

My spec is that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar found her, which solidified his decision to take her and make the third head of the dragon with her. But again, we don’t have enough evidence to know for sure on any of this.

So Lyanna caused her death by standing up and getting noticed? This sounds a little too much like "blame the rape victim" to me, and is something else I have a hard time imagining Ned believing.*

*Note that I'm not saying that you personally are blaming the rape victim, just that the scenario you offer would propose that Ned is blaming the rape victim.

Ned never says Rhaegar doesn’t have any vices. He just guessed (because he doesn’t know) that he didn’t have that particular one.

Which would be an odd thing to think about your sister's rapist. Which is the entire point. It's about what Ned assumes about Rhaegar based on what he knows of his character.

So that is if he lived up to the praise. Like the R+L=J fans keep saying, this book is filled with unreliable narrators.

This applies just as well to Robert and Bran as it does to anyone else. The difference, though, is that George has had these characters explicitly state that Rhaegar was a rapist, probably so as to mislead those who only give the book a surface reading while lacing the rest of the books with clues for the more attentive readers. That's the kind of author George is.

We as readers don’t know if he lived up to their praise on not.

Sure, but the perspectives of people such as Jaime, Ned, Jorah, and Barristan at least offer counterpoints to Robert and Bran's perspectives.

As for it implying that not everyone believes in the rape story, where? Where do any of the characters say that Rhaegar didn’t rape Lyanna?

Well, "implying" is not the same as "saying", so your second question does not follow from the first.

Also, if you're going to base what you believe happened only on what characters say happened, and not on what is implied to have happened, then you're going to miss out on about half the book (for instance, are you aware that it was Roose Bolton who killed Robb? Or that Jaquen is the Alchemist in Oldtown?).

For the record, no one states outright that Rhaegar did not rape Lyanna. However, their opinions on him are inconsistent with such a belief. Jaime hated Aerys in part because he raped his wife, yet he has a postive opinion of Rhaegar. Ser Jorah praises Dany by comparing her to Rhaegar, right as she is saving a bunch of women from being raped. Ser Barristan, who is honest to Dany about her own father's insanity, lauds Rhaegar and claims he was the greatest Targaryen of them all. None of these statements are consistent with the belief that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, and we may therefore infer that these characters don't hold that belief.

Unless there’s a quote from a character saying they don’t think it happened, then it’s just fans deciding that that’s the meaning.

No, it's called interpreting.

But I do think that Rhaegar could have been in love with or believed to be in love with Lyanna. What other reason could people give for him kidnapping her?

Lust, greed, obsession, take your pick.

I agree. We don’t have enough evidence and we don’t have the full context of any of this. That is kind of my main point. I honestly don’t think this theory that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and ran away with him has enough evidence to be bandied around as fact like it seems to be here.

I have never personally claimed it is a fact, nor do I recall anyone else doing so. It may come across that way because a lot of us believe it's true, but the same can be said of R+L=J and its believers, and I haven't seen you claim that theory is weak.

But anyway, to sum it up, I think most of the “evidence” about Lyanna willingly running away with Rhaegar is more fan speculation that than actual canon.

Well of course it's speculation, every theory is speculation. I've seen people trot out this "but it's only speculation!" defense before, and it usually means they're running out of arguments.

It really relies a lot on the reader “implying” things or taking a leap in thought to connect ideas. But, obviously, that’s just my opinion.

You mean "infer" rather than "imply." And yes, of course it relies on inference, that's what interpretation is all about.

[Roxy]

Well of course it's speculation, every theory is speculation. I've seen people trot out this "but it's only speculation!" defense before, and it usually means they're running out of arguments.

I haven't run out of arguments. They're the same ones they were in my last two posts. I still see this whole thing as a bunch of unconnected things forced together with more fan created details than actual canon. Way too much of it relies on creating meanings where there may or may not be any. But JMO :)

[Dragonfish]

I haven't run out of arguments. They're the same ones they were in my last two posts. I still see this whole thing as a bunch of unconnected things forced together with more fan created details than actual canon. Way too much of it relies on creating meanings where there may or may not be any. But JMO :)

Well, I could just as easily say that your argument relies on ignoring meanings that are quite clearly there. But that kind of argument will get us both nowhere, so I guess it's just best to agree to disagree.

[corbon]

I just don’t see how any of that is evidence that she ran away with him willingly.

It isn't proof that she did, its evidence that she might have.

Turn it the other way around. What evidence do we have for kidnap and rape?

King Bob-the-Fantasist's word? Who was not present and never spoke to anyone who was except for yelling at Rhaegar during a duel to the death?

Bran, the 10 year old who was not born at the time, probably doesn't understand yet what rape is, is clearly just parroting the 'official history' he has been taught, and gets details about Brandon and Rickards death totally wrong?

Danerys, who was not born at the time, has no chain of contact with people who were present, and is clearly just 'adapting' Robert's official histories that she has heard coming out of westeros?

In short there is no evidence at all for kidnap and rape beyond the claims of people who were not present and have no chain of contact with anyone who was to actually find out the truth.

Robert made up the story because it is what he needs to believe for his own self image and sanity. He won and became king, and there was no one to dispute his story so it became the history. He is even lying to himself, since he did not go to war to recover Lyanna. There was no war when Lyanna was 'kidnapped' nor even when Brandon and Rickard were murdered. War only started by Jon Arryn, when Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads. Robert went to war because it was that or be executed for something he had no part in, and his mentor Jon Arryn made that decision for him. Lyanna is just Robert's personal post hoc justification.

That is all.

[RenlyWasNotGay]

That's because you're rationalizing it all away. You could do that with any theory, even R+L=J.

Seriously, put all of these clues together:

1) Lyanna's ambivalence toward Robert

2) Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song

3) Lyanna's clutching the rose petals Rhaegar gave her

4) Eddard's statement about Lyanna's wolf blood leading her to an early grave

5) Numerous characters' praise of Rhaegar

6) The Kingsguards presence at the ToJ (I neglected to include this earlier), which implies that Jon was legitimate, and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married

Now connect the dots. It's pretty easy to draw a straight line between these hints and the conclusion that Lyanna loved Rhaegar, but it's more difficult to draw a straight line to the conclusion that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.

The difference is that Robert was a serial womanizer, whereas Rhaegar was (presumably) not. His marriage to Elia was not one he chose, and there was no love between the two of them (which is not to say they didn't like each other). I think that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were doing the same thing in running off together: turning away from the political marriages they were forced into, and choosing to marry the one they loved.

The blue rose symbol involves Rhaegar about as much as it does Lyanna. Pretty much every other time the image is brought up, it refers to both of them.

I'm sorry, I have a hard time believing that Ned would think Lyanna was partially responsible for her own demise because she fought back against her kidnappers. The fault there would lie with the people who were holding her captive.

So Lyanna caused her death by standing up and getting noticed? This sounds a little too much like "blame the rape victim" to me, and is something else I have a hard time imagining Ned believing.*

*Note that I'm not saying that you personally are blaming the rape victim, just that the scenario you offer would propose that Ned is blaming the rape victim.

Which would be an odd thing to think about your sister's rapist. Which is the entire point. It's about what Ned assumes about Rhaegar based on what he knows of his character.

This applies just as well to Robert and Bran as it does to anyone else. The difference, though, is that George has had these characters explicitly state that Rhaegar was a rapist, probably so as to mislead those who only give the book a surface reading while lacing the rest of the books with clues for the more attentive readers. That's the kind of author George is.

Sure, but the perspectives of people such as Jaime, Ned, Jorah, and Barristan at least offer counterpoints to Robert and Bran's perspectives.

Well, "implying" is not the same as "saying", so your second question does not follow from the first.

Also, if you're going to base what you believe happened only on what characters say happened, and not on what is implied to have happened, then you're going to miss out on about half the book (for instance, are you aware that it was Roose Bolton who killed Robb? Or that Jaquen is the Alchemist in Oldtown?).

For the record, no one states outright that Rhaegar did not rape Lyanna. However, their opinions on him are inconsistent with such a belief. Jaime hated Aerys in part because he raped his wife, yet he has a postive opinion of Rhaegar. Ser Jorah praises Dany by comparing her to Rhaegar, right as she is saving a bunch of women from being raped. Ser Barristan, who is honest to Dany about her own father's insanity, lauds Rhaegar and claims he was the greatest Targaryen of them all. None of these statements are consistent with the belief that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, and we may therefore infer that these characters don't hold that belief.

No, it's called interpreting.

Lust, greed, obsession, take your pick.

I have never personally claimed it is a fact, nor do I recall anyone else doing so. It may come across that way because a lot of us believe it's true, but the same can be said of R+L=J and its believers, and I haven't seen you claim that theory is weak.

Well of course it's speculation, every theory is speculation. I've seen people trot out this "but it's only speculation!" defense before, and it usually means they're running out of arguments.

You mean "infer" rather than "imply." And yes, of course it relies on inference, that's what interpretation is all about.

OWNED.

[bloodymime]

Not that the singers necessarily get it right but this is Septon Meribald talking.

"The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love"

[WindOfWinter]

You are purposely given only one side of the Rebellion. With all the shades of grey in this series do you honestly think Martin would make every single Targ from that era evil, demented and twisted? Doesn't seem to fit his MO.

Also as much as Ned loves Robert he seems to have a higher opinion of Rhaegar which would be a strange thing of a man he believed raped his sister.

"He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Honourable Ned Stark would think this FIRST about Rheagar knowing/thinking he abducted, raped and killed his sister? Also, Varys and the dozen other characters who frequently remind us that the winner of the war writes the history books. Ned was well past the point of no return when he finally learned the truth as Lyanna was dying, there was no point in fighting any more; it was a lot easier to go with the lie and preserve the family's integrity. It must have been a hard on Eddard to come to grips with the fact so many people died so needlessly (assuming Rheagar was intact planning a coup, as Varys suggested to the Mad King), and preserving the abduction story, much like lying about being a traitor, was the only thing he could do to save his House and his family.

You can't take Bran's view on the Lyanna/Rheagar situation because he's only heard the one side. It would be treason to teach children that Robert's Rebellion was fought for anything other than what the Crown said were the reasons I'd imagine. Speaking of Bran, I think the reason we no longer see from his POV after his powers increase significantly is because he saw Lyanna and Rheagar and Martin does not want to spell it out just yet to the audience. Bran's next chapter will be a very interesting one as far as the origins of Robert's Rebellion go, IMHO.

[bloodymime]

I'm not sure who you're talking to there. I found the passage from Septon Meribald interesting because despite Robert's view of Rhaegar and Lyanna public perception seems to be two men fighting over a woman they both love.

[aajonsnow]

I believe it was just a made up story by Littlefinger about Rhaegar kidnapping/raping Lyanna because this triggered Brandon to look for Rhaegar and this was the purpose of Littlefinger for Brandon to die, since he does not want Brandon to marry Catelyn. But little did he know that this story will escalate into a war and since then Littlefinger knew he could manipulate anyone to his advantage.

[Where Went Whent]

To Usurp a throne, you need a reason. Robert is obviously a very lonely man. He is loud, uses swear words and drinks when troubled. He loves this beautiful northern lady and probably she doesnt love him back, so he turns his frustrations on Rhaegar who appears better than him. Rhaegar is the crown prince who would one day be king. Robert probably believed that was the reason Lyanna loved him more, so she can be queen. He seethes and drinks, he goes hunting. Then fortunately the mad king roasts some Starks and he found a reason. Now notice this: The rebellion started because of how abominable Aerys had acted, but later on we hear Robert saying that the real reason he fought was because Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Robert probably sought to be king to impress Lyanna. He loved that girl more than anything. He killed his rival in combat. But Lyanna rather chose to follow Rhaegar to the afterlife and Robert was left empty on a throne he fought for. He fought for nothing. Thats why he was that obnoxious fool we found in AGOT