Was Ned's honor really his downfall?

[Northern light]

I think this is rather unfair to Ned. He was asked to play a game, but he wasn't told the rules. So he played it as it was played in the North: where honor is very important to a man's reputation. If you had brought Cersei, Littlefinger or Renly to a Northern court, they wouldn't have lasted a month before being sent to the Wall. People tend to forget that, even with the terrible "luck" of having Robert die in the moment he did, Eddard was really close to "win". The only single thing that prevented him from capturing all the Lannisters and installing Stannis in the Throne was Littlefinger's betrayal. In retrospective we know that was a mistake, but from Ned's perspective, he was a childhood friend of his wife and had been personally appointed by his mentor.

Agree. When I read GOT the first time I didn't think LF would betray Ned. Now four books later I don't think so anymore. However, ppl tend to forget that Ned didn't have that knowledge in GoT.

[The Frosted King]

People saying Neds downfall was his honor aren't reading the same books i have.

Ned made the best decisions NED would make, given the circumstances and knowledge he had at the time.

And lol at people who compare Ned and Jaimes honor.

Jaimes self-proclaimed best act was the needless murder of a frail old man.

Neds best act was the warning he gave Cersei, a woman implicated in the attempted death of his son and betrayal of the entire realm.

And fuck Jaime lannister........seriously.

He cares about the people of kings landing, but says fukk all to the realm?

WHY SAVE THE CITY, IF YOU'RE JUST GONNA BLEED THE REALM, KINGSLAYER?!

He's funny, charismatic and handsome(i guess?) but all his outward assets invert his inward shittiness.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Some people here might think that Ned honor was about nobility or duty towards the realm. But I always believed that honor, in Ned's case, was simply a "right thing to do" as apposed to duty. Time and time again, Ned proved that he would forsake his duty if it conflicts with his honor. For example he had a fight with Robert over death of targarien children. A dutiful man would have kept silent because his duty is what king command, but Ned spoke. Same thing with killing dany. He refused to kill her knowing full well that he is forsaking his duties. My point is that Ned clearly made a distinction between duty and honor (right thing to do) and preferred honor over duty .

Someone will make a case that he is judgmental about about Jaime therefor he prefers duty over honor. I believe that if Jaime had explained his actions to him, Ned would have understand. But Jaimie lannister has kept and exterior of honor-less man that whole seven kingdom deems him as a king slayer. To be honest, I'm still not convinced of Jaime self-justification.

[The Frosted King]

Oh yeah, people saying Robert could let Cersei and the children return to Casterly Rock aren't students of history.

You can't allow your potential enemies a rallying point, and thats exactly what the bastards would represent. Whatever trueborn children he had with a new wife, would always be threatened whilst they lived.

And as someone who's position must be laced with respect and a small measure of fear, allowing the couple who put horns on you to merely live out their days in the west is wishful thinking of the highest sort, utterly devoid of any grasp on reality.

Jamie and Cersei would have to die, and their incestous brood as well, if his seat was ever to be secure.

Same thing now faces the Boltons.

If the Starks ever do take back the north, the bolton line must end.....root and branch.

They've done too many horrible things at the cost of their overlords, and reached too high for a mere bending of the knee to suffice.

[StoneBastard]

Ned didn't want to play, he was manipulated into playing. He was pulled down from the North and sent into a crash course with the Lannisters. He was a pawn, not a player.

A lot of people like to read as absolute truth Varys comment that Ned's honour got him where he was. It didn't. Varys was simply trying to emotionally manipulate him into confessing so he'd take the Black, thereby hoping to delay the war that seemed to be brewing.

What really got Ned killed was poor luck, a city full of intrigue, and a man who never got over his childhood crush.

He was a player, regardless of his intentions. He tried to manipulate the situation to his end. He just wasn't shrewd enough to finish his course. He trusted too much. He was unable to anticipate the other players moves or to think several moves ahead. He was an amatuer at the game, which is why he never wanted to leave the secluded North. There is no honor in KL.

[StoneBastard]

I think this is rather unfair to Ned. He was asked to play a game, but he wasn't told the rules. So he played it as it was played in the North: where honor is very important to a man's reputation. If you had brought Cersei, Littlefinger or Renly to a Northern court, they wouldn't have lasted a month before being sent to the Wall. People tend to forget that, even with the terrible "luck" of having Robert die in the moment he did, Eddard was really close to "win". The only single thing that prevented him from capturing all the Lannisters and installing Stannis in the Throne was Littlefinger's betrayal. In retrospective we know that was a mistake, but from Ned's perspective, he was a childhood friend of his wife and had been personally appointed by his mentor.

A warrior knows to always choose the battleground to gain the advantage. Sure, he was on their turf, but "not knowing the rules" is a flimsy excuse for playing poorly. Robert's death has nothing to do with luck, btw. And I think LIttlefinger would survive anywhere....

[salt]

I personally think Ned's downfall was him getting his head cut off

[SerMixalot]

I personally think Ned's downfall was him getting his head cut off

nah in asoiaf, that only means he should come back bigger and better

[The-Bard-of-Dungbriar]

I guess I'm the rarity in that I don't see Ned as a very honorable character at all. Honorable in comparison to very dishonorable people, maybe, but definitely not honorable in the classical sense of the word.

[SerMixalot]

them's fighting words, my good ser

[Kittyhat]

So in your broader concept, the Aerys' Kingsguard did act with honor when they watched King Cuckoo commit atrocity upon atrocity, seeing as it was their ultimate duty to serve, protect and obey him? Not that honor does not include any of the traits you describe it, but it is, in my view, founded most of all on selflessness and the willingness to act in accordance to what is right (as diffuse as that may be). Moreover, I don't believe justice and honor are wholly interchangeable. Justice can be hard and unforgiving, while honor can include something like mercy for the children.

So you're equating reporting Cersei for her very real and serious treason with standing by while the Mad King commits gross atrocities? Seriously? :shocked:

Even if Robert actually did order the Lannister bastards killed (and we don't know he would, especially given their illegitimacy would automatically invalidate any claim of theirs to the throne, making them no threat whatsoever), it wouldn't begin to approach what the Mad King did.

And there you're comparing "what might have been" with "what was definitely already happening" anyway, so not only are the magnitudes completely out of whack, but so are the circumstances.

I can actually see why Jamie did what he did (killing the Mad King), as it happens, and I can see where, at a certain point, "duty to the realm" could make that one act honorable. Not that much else he's done ever was. But that's digressing a bit ...

[Kittyhat]

Kittyhat, the points you 've raised in this thread and the hypcrite one make me think you're working under a premise that Ned's flawed approach, his dishonor as you call it, make him less deserving of being a hero. Am I right in thinking that you assume any time he resorts to underhanded means for the greater good that it tarnishes his heroic image?

No, actually. And I tried to specify that I didn't say his act wasn't intended as compassionate and merciful.

I just questioned that honor was really the cause of his downfall, even though Ned was usually honorable. Ironically, the things that caused his downfall were basically his only dishonorable acts ever shown.

[Castel]

Umm, I posted a passage from the book that explicitly states that Ned thought them all at risk. Ned feared Robert would kill J, C and the 3 children. The Dany/unborn child incident only goes to show how ruthless Robert could be, that he is willing to kill chilren, even infants and the unborn

You misunderstood me:

Ned isn't a Knight. "I think you are giving Robert too much credit for reasonableness or Neds ability to restrain him. Robert proved that when he hates someone and feels threatened by them that he would go to any length to get rid of that threat. Thus the order to kill Dany;s unborn child, despite not having commited any act themselves. Their mere existence was enough to fuel his decision to kill them, a decision not rescinded I believe until Robert was on his deathbed. I believe it clearly stated in the book that Robert would kill the little ones and that certainly was Neds belief. I recently reread GoT, perhaps you could do the same if you have not read those chapters in a while" Uh, no. Robert had mercy on the fleeing Targs, he only tried to kill them again because they were becoming a threat. Sure he may have been quicker to do it to them than he would anyone else, but as a first generation king that won through conquest it was a reasonable decision. Robert's true hate is for people like Rhaegar, and like Ned said, people who betray him in such an emasculating and shameful way the way Cersei and Jaime did.

I was talking about Dany and the fact that Robert spared her once already. He wasn't just ruled by blind hate. But in the case of Cersei and Jaime he definitely would be.

[SerMixalot]

I believe it was established that Robert spent 17 years trying to kill dany and viserys

[Castel]

I believe it was established that Robert spent 17 years trying to kill dany and viserys

No, that's what Dany and Viserys thought. They believed that they were running away from Robert, a reasonable assumption and a nice story to tell a child, but if I recall correctly Robert specifically says that Jon Arryn talked him out of chasing them out of Westeros and convinced him to show mercy, something he seems to regret.

[Jack Clegane]

Jaimes self-proclaimed best act was the needless murder of a frail old man.

I wanna know who this frail old man he needlessly killed is. If you're talking about the Mad king then you most certainly are reading a different set of books to me.

[The Frosted King]

Aerys was an old man who could only find himself aroused when he burned someone.

A fifteen year old boy dragged him down the steps and shoved a sword through his back.

Doesn't sound like a man in the prime of his life to me.

[Castel]

Aerys was an old man who could only find himself aroused when he burned someone.

A fifteen year old boy dragged him down the steps and shoved a sword through his back.

Doesn't sound like a man in the prime of his life to me.

People get all caught up in comparisons of physical size. Aerys was the king, with a cache of wildfire around the city, it's not like he was harmless. Hell, that's like claiming that Tyrion or Qyburn or Littlefinger (or hell, let's go realistic and say Obama) aren't dangerous because they're small.

You could make the argument that Jaime should have taken him captive, but he most definitely was dangerous.

[The Frosted King]

Jaime killed Rossart before he returned to Aerys.

The plot to burn kl was postponed.

Jaime had the clear edge on Aerys. He had no need to kill him.

Merely detaining him/knocking him out would've saved his honor.

But he didn't think, as he didn't think for most of his life, and just acted via his gut.

[Sand11751]

No, actually. And I tried to specify that I didn't say his act wasn't intended as compassionate and merciful.

I just questioned that honor was really the cause of his downfall, even though Ned was usually honorable. Ironically, the things that caused his downfall were basically his only dishonorable acts ever shown.

Thanks, I definitely misunderstood where you were going with the theory.

What then do you think of his next dishonor, where he turns on his own principles and made the false confession of his crimes? Do you think there was any moment where he could have turned the situation around or was he simply doomed?

I like what Martin did with Ned's arc as the tragic hero, because he presents a man whose survival system is based on this strong sense of honor, a clear definition of right and wrong. Ned's thrown into situations with people who see the world in much murkier colors. Yet, he still tries to maintain this sense of honor and forthrightness even when the players around him start to show they won't play the game in a clear cut way. When Ned made the false confession, that's where I saw him weaken and abandon the honor that he had always held. Before his real death, it's almost like a metaphorical death; an end to the high minded principles that helped him through life. Then it became just about baser needs; survival, an action completely against his nature. Yet look at why he told that lie: for the sake of his children. Who wouldn't choose life at all costs?

Martin's also given Ned this wonderful backstory that makes you think you know exactly how he's going to act in every situation; each action defined by his moral code. It's why he was angry when Robert wasn't horrified at the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon (killing innocent children is wrong), why he kept whatever family secret Lyanna held him to and why he wouldn't speak of Jon's mother no matter how many times Cat must have asked or accused (loyalty to family is paramount, even over friendship or even matrimonial bonds). All of this serves to humanize him, despite his minded-principles. I felt shattered for him when he chose to turn from them, to offer up that lie even for the sake of survival. The fact that he can't stay true to who he was at the very end could mean he'd reached that breaking point, the point where he could have shed all that he was just to survive on the Wall or in obscurity. In a way, I love the fact that Joffrey's order to Illyn Payne prevented a further betrayal or downward spiral from ever happening. It's why I keep Ned Stark in my head as the ultimate fatal, flawed hero.