Manderly's *Other* Songs — Hidden Meanings?

[Yeade]

Apple Martini, I have great respect for you as a poster on these boards and agree with many of your theories, but one line of speculation I've never much liked is that Jeyne Westerling's pregnant with Robb's child and has been swapped out of Lannister custody by the Blackfish. So, I can't say I've ever given any thought to what Edmure and his uncle discuss before Riverrun surrenders in relation to Jeyne. :laugh:

More seriously, my assumption's that, in addition to confirming the identity of Robb's heir as stated in his will, Edmure passes along to the Blackfish news of whatever plans the Brotherhood Without Banners has in motion to retake Riverrun and free the prisoners of the Red Wedding that Edmure hears of earlier from Tom Sevenstrings when Jaime leaves the singer alone to entertain Edmure. It need not be that detailed an accounting but primarily an offer of alliance in fighting mutual enemies and possibly an in with the greater conspiracy to restore the Starks to power since the BWB's apparently also pursuing contact with the northmen in the Neck.

Lady Stoneheart, I think, has calmed somewhat with her post-resurrection lust for bloody vengeance satiated and since recovering Robb's crown from Ryman Frey's dead hands. What's left of Catelyn in her remembers the last discussions she has with Robb and Robb with his bannermen before setting out for the Twins. Her actions may now be directed at the strategic end of restoring Robb's kingdom.

Even sending Brienne after Jaime serves the purpose of removing basically the only effective leader in the region. No one respects the Freys and, while there are probably other competent Lannister men, Jaime is, as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, the representative of the Iron Throne and its power. Vance, Piper, and the riverlords who've all lost kin in the Red Wedding are already discontent.

I'd like to see the Blackfish in the Vale, personally, but I wonder if he'd meet up with the BWB after escaping Riverrun and learn the fate of his beloved niece...

[bloodymime]

Lady Stoneheart, I think, has calmed somewhat with her post-resurrection lust for bloody vengeance satiated and since recovering Robb's crown from Ryman Frey's dead hands. What's left of Catelyn in her remembers the last discussions she has with Robb and Robb with his bannermen before setting out for the Twins. Her actions may now be directed at the strategic end of restoring Robb's kingdom.

I personally like the idea that Cat is the only one that knows what Robb's will contained. It sets up a nice storyline of will she respect her son's wishes or will she let her feelings toward Jon get in the way?

Nobody else seems to think this but to me it's reasonable. Jon is not only a bastard but a brother in the Night's Watch. Something Cat brings up herself with Robb replying that the Kingsguard did it first, suggesting there is no precedent for a brother of the Night's Watch to break his vows this way. These are Northern lords and ladies, Mormont, Umber, Glover. Someone would at least comment on the unusuality of what Robb is doing yet unless it happens offpage it doesn't happen.

We have the precedent of Robert's will to know that Renly and Pycelle had no knowledge of what the will contained, they just stood witness to it's being sealed. I think the situations are similar enough that it's reasonable to take from the text that Robb simply commands them to put their seals to the document without knowing what it contains.

I don't buy Robb sending Lady Mormont and Glover with copies of his will, he only produces the one copy and why would he bother? He's going north himself and certainly doesn't predict the Red Wedding and the absolute destruction of his army. In normal events if something had happened to him the lords would be able to get the will out of his baggage but that one in a million disaster occured and every single lord is either dead or captured.

I think that will is either at the bottom of a Frey privy or in their possession with Cat the only one that knows it's contents.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just can't imagine no one else knowing the contents of the will. That's part of why they signed it, is it not? That they saw whom Robb named as heir and were bearing witness and also pledging to see it enforced?

[bloodymime]

I just can't imagine not one of these Northern lords saying something about the fact that they're standing witness to not only a bastard being legitimized but a brother of the Night's Watch being released from his vows. The first would be unusual enough but combined has to be something that has certainly never happened before. Even Robb can only give the Lannisters throwing Selmy out of the Kingsguard as an example. I'm not saying they'd refuse but something so out of anywhere near the ordinary would be at the least remarked upon yet not a peep.

Unless it happens offpage of course. Always the problem.

But they don't sign it,

"I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

That's a pretty ambigous statement. To me it just feels like they're fixing their seals to a folded or rolled up document as witnesses like what Renly and Pycelle did with Roberts will. It's just too extraordinary of a thing naming Jon his heir to not occasion a lot of talk about it if not there then at the wedding in my opinion. Think of how much people gossiped and speculated on where Selmy was after being thrown out of the Kingsguard yet not a single comment from anybody at anytime regarding Jon.

While I do think there are good reasons to think that from what's in the books the problem is it would seem to be a pointless conflict inside of Cat as we won't get any more pov's from her I believe? So unless it's a matter of the Freys having it and the BWB or others taking it's probably me being completely wrong.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Apple Martini, I have great respect for you as a poster on these boards and agree with many of your theories, but one line of speculation I've never much liked is that Jeyne Westerling's pregnant with Robb's child and has been swapped out of Lannister custody by the Blackfish. So, I can't say I've ever given any thought to what Edmure and his uncle discuss before Riverrun surrenders in relation to Jeyne. :laugh:

. . .

I'd like to see the Blackfish in the Vale, personally, but I wonder if he'd meet up with the BWB after escaping Riverrun and learn the fate of his beloved niece...

Yeah, I can't get behind the pregnant-Jeyne-escaped-with-the-Blackfish theory either, as much as I respect Apple Martini's analysis. I should also mention that I am often wrong in regard to theories. I guess in three or four years we'll find out . . . :cool4:

Good catches on those songs, though, I'll have to look up those sections and reread them. Oh, that Wiley Wyman!

As to the "beloved niece," -- has the Blackfish ever even seen his niece(s)? I also have the feeling that he's not the affectionate type.

[bloodymime]

Cat is the Blackfish's niece.

I don't know if Jeyne is pregnant but I'm leaning more and more to her leaving with the Blackfish

“No. My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe. I will not hand her over to a Frey noose.”

Blackfish is from the old guard. He gave his word and I'm in agreement he wouldn't leave without her no matter what Edmure did.

[Cheese Pudding]

Great theory, it never crossed my mind. Wyman Manderly genius.

Now the message is pretty clear.

The North remembers

[tze]

You'd have to think even the North would have more wedding oriented songs than just the ones celebrating that group of sworn bachelors at the frozen edge of nowhere for the jolly fat man to want to tap his toe to.

This is why I think it's so interesting that Manderly specifically calls for three Night's Watch-centric songs, especially "The Night That Ended". I mean, the Starks are thousands of years old---are there no Stark-centric songs he could call for? No songs of Brandon the Builder, for example? The bride was supposedly a Stark, after all, so it's not like a Stark-centric song would have started a fight in the hall, and calling for a song about a victory of the Night's Watch, instead of a song about some past Stark-centric victory (over, say, some rebellious bannermen?), if Manderly merely intended the song as a general call to arms for the North, strikes me as somewhat odd.

And "The Night That Ended" is the very first song Manderly calls for. Lykos provided the full passage of the events during "The Night That Ended" in ACOK, which I think includes some interesting things, as compared to the events in Winterfell in ADWD:

The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking. Two Glover men began a spinning skirl on bladder and woodharp. Mors Umber was the first on his feet. He seized a passing serving girl by the arm, knocking the flagon of wine out of her hands to shatter on the floor. Amidst the rushes and bones and bits of bread that littered the stone, he whirled her and spun her and tossed her in the air. The girl squealed with laughter and turned red as her skirts swirled and lifted.

In ACOK, both Whoresbane and Crowfood Umber physically take action when the song begins---Whoresbane blows the horn, Crowfood starts dancing with a serving girl. This could be a hint that Crowfood and Whoresbane are still working "in tandem" during the events of ADWD. And the two Glover men who took part during the song in ACOK could highlight the absence of the two "literal" Glovers in Winterfell in ADWD---where is Galbart? Where is Robett? In ACOK, two Glover men are playing instruments in tandem with Whoresbane blowing his horn and Crowfood dancing. In ADWD, the Glovers are nowhere to be found in Winterfell---but given the fact that Manderly and Robett Glover are clearly working together, there might be a hint there.

The drums, the blowing horn---these are parts of the song within Winterfell in ACOK, and in ADWD, Crowfood's boys end up blowing horns and banging drums outside Winterfell. Manderly dances with Beth Cassel in ACOK, and Beth is supposedly a Bolton prisoner in the Dreadfort during ADWD.

In ACOK, Crowfood Umber knocks a flagon of wine from a serving girl's hands and it shatters on the floor as the two begin to dance to "The Night That Ended" (presumably, leading to wine spilling). In ADWD, when Theon leaves the table and is summoned to the bridal bedchamber, he explicitly knocks a flagon of wine from the hands of a serving girl, and the wine spatters over him. I have no idea what that could symbolize (other than the notion that wine = blood), but hey, I thought I'd point it out.

As a side note, before Manderly starts calling for songs, Mance/Abel is playing a song called "Fair Maids of Summer". Given the Starks' association with winter, not summer, that could be a hint that Mance himself recognized immediately that Jeyne isn't Arya Stark. Apparently a song does exist called "The Winter Maid", but Mance doesn't play it until much later---he only plays it when Jeyne is basically imprisoned in her room and is therefore not physically present in the Great Hall.

As an extra cherry on top, it's been theorized that Mance Rayder, after failing to find Arya in the vicinity of Long Lake, makes for White Harbor and/or meets Manderly on the road to Winterfell. I can't recall if Abel and his washerwomen arrive in Winterfell shortly before, shortly after, or even with Manderly...?

I'm pretty sure they arrive after Manderly, because supposedly the only reason Mance and the spearwives are allowed inside Winterfell in the first place is because Manderly brought musicians but no singers. Which is kind of an odd thing for Manderly to just accidentally forget, since this is a wedding. And it was pointed out in ADWD that, hey, White Harbor hasn't been raided in forever (so Manderly wouldn't have the same visceral hatred of the wildlings that other lords of the North might have) and Manderly calls himself the Defender of the Dispossessed because House Manderly sought refuge in the North after being hounded from their homes by their enemies. If anyone in the North would be amenable to making a deal with Mance, it's Manderly.

If Manderly knew Mance's identity all along, it also could have played a role in the songs Manderly wanted Mance to sing (Mance Rayder was, after all, once a member of the Night's Watch).

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Cat is the Blackfish's niece.

You are quite right; in fact I misunderstood that paragraph in its entirety. So much for my reading comprehension skills.

[bloodymime]

In ACOK, Crowfood Umber knocks a flagon of wine from a serving girl's hands and it shatters on the floor as the two begin to dance to "The Night That Ended" (presumably, leading to wine spilling). In ADWD, when Theon leaves the table and is summoned to the bridal bedchamber, he explicitly knocks a flagon of wine from the hands of a serving girl, and the wine spatters over him. I have no idea what that could symbolize (other than the notion that wine = blood), but hey, I thought I'd point it out.

Winds of Winter spoiler.

One possible connection, it is Crowfood that scoops up Theon and Jeyne when they fall off the wall.

I was starting to wonder if Crowsfood could be the hooded man. Both men say near the exact same thing to Theon.

Dance.

“Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.” “I’m not. I never … I was ironborn.” “False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”

Winds.

" — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it."

Dance talks about their eyes meeting though and Theon never whimpers over an eyepatch the way he does in Winds.

Going really far afield, Jeyne Poole is the chief stewards daughter. You look up what a chief steward did in medieval times and you get some of these facts.

"The role of the butler, for centuries, has been that of the chief steward of a household, the attendant entrusted with the care and serving of wine and other bottled beverages which in ancient times might have represented a considerable portion of the household's assets."

in Winds we find out Theon lands on top of Jeyne when they fall from the wall breaking some of her ribs. Perhaps some foreshadowing Crowsfood is going to find out she's a fake and breaks her for good.

[bloodymime]

So many sets of threes in that chapter. I rarely pay attention to numbers but you can barely read a paragraph here without tripping over three of something

three candles flutter out

Theon thinks Arya has three brothers still

Fat Walda has three pieces of Frey Pie

Three flights of stairs to Ramsays chambers

three songs of the Night's Watch

three Frey Pies

three grey peas from a black pod, the maesters of Hornwood, Cerwyn and Slate. No knowledge of Slate but Hornwood and Cerwyn were both houses strong for the Starks of which both lords were killed at the first battle Bolton commanded which I will always consider suspicious.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't think Manderly wrote that letter. And he probably wants all the Starks he can get his hands on - because he knows how easily than can be killed.

Like arya, bran, sansa, and rickon? Those Starks?

[kg1982]

I'd love to get full lyrics to the Night That Ended ala the Rains of Castamere. I don't think there are any lyrics in the books.

[bloodymime]

I'd love to get full lyrics to the Night That Ended ala the Rains of Castamere. I don't think there are any lyrics in the books.

I think you're right, the only times it's mentioned at all is the harvest festival and the mummer's wedding.

"When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn"

And that's all the description we get of the song so far.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think you're right, the only times it's mentioned at all is the harvest festival and the mummer's wedding.

"When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn"

And that's all the description we get of the song so far.

Intentional, maybe? It could be that lyrics would give the game away. Most of the other songs where we don't have lyrics, we still know the general story (Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, the Rat Cook, Danny Flint, Florian and Jonquil, etc.).

[Dolorous Ali]

Well, the ideas are good here. Though I don't believe that Manderly wanted Jon to be king. He's after Rickon. So no reason for him to proclaim Jon as king. If Robb legitimized Jon and even cut Sansa out of the succession, Bran and Rickon are still heirs to the kingdom before Jon. A legitimized bastard is the last in the line of succession.

Plus I thought Robb intended that the letter be sent to Greywater Watch. I don't completely remember this, but if it's true then Howland Reed would take care of it instead of Manderly.

[bloodymime]

Manderly's a smart enough man not to put all his eggs in one basket, there's no reason he couldn't be going after both.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I would like to think so. With that well said Apple, I wonder if Robb's will has found its way to White Harbor, bypassing the Kingsroad and possibly by boat. We know that one Glover is secretly there in White Harbor, perhaps the brother with the will knew it to be a safe place to go. We, I assume both speculate that the will legitimizes Jon as Jon Stark and makes him King.

I guess that would explain the Ramsay letter better than any other explanation we've heard. Good work.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Long live the Grand Northern Conspiracy! ^_^

Regarding Chekhov's will, I think it's possible every leader in the North knows who Robb names as heir (assuming it's Jon) except Stannis, the Boltons, and Jon himself. The following are witnesses to the will: Greatjon Umber, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, Jason Mallister, and Edmure Tully.

Mormont and Glover are still lost in the Neck, but that the crannogmen are fighting the ironborn in ADWD is perhaps an indication that at least one of Robb's messengers has made it to Howland Reed. Lyanna Mormont's refusal of Stannis and Alysane's later conversations with Asha seem to imply Maege's in contact with her daughters in the North, too.

Edmure no doubt shares the contents of Robb's will with the Blackfish when Jaime releases him to negotiate the surrender of Riverrun, likely just confirming what Brynden Tully already knows as Robb's closest adviser. Instead of disbanding as the rest of the Riverrun garrison does, Desmond Grell, master at arms, and Robin Ryger, captain of guards, choose to take the black.

Jaime orders the two men escorted to Maidenpool where, presumably, they hire a ship to sail them to Eastwatch. With maybe a stopover on the way at White Harbor? Common speculation says Grell and Ryger have been assigned by the Blackfish to serve Jon notice that he's King in the North while Tully coordinates with the Brotherhood Without Banners, members of which are also seen riding into the Neck, in wresting control of the riverlands from the Lannisters, possibly by gathering support in the Vale.

As an extra cherry on top, it's been theorized that Mance Rayder, after failing to find Arya in the vicinity of Long Lake, makes for White Harbor and/or meets Manderly on the road to Winterfell. I can't recall if Abel and his washerwomen arrive in Winterfell shortly before, shortly after, or even with Manderly...? Another point to consider is whether Old Flint and the Norrey have ulterior motives for crashing Alys Karstark's wedding at Castle Black. For example, to take the measure of Jon Snow.

If indeed Jon's been legitimized King in the North and Robb's former loyal subjects have decided to uphold his will, the elements of a really quite extensive conspiracy are in place to simultaneously oust the Lannisters and Boltons, kill a host of Freys, crown Jon and secure for him an heir in Rickon over Stannis's objections.

Hilariously, I think the only hitch in the northmen's plans is that Jon will refuse the offer. How awkward! :laugh:

Not to turn this thread into yet another debate on the authorship of the Pink Letter, but Mance Rayder leaves the Wall before Jon releases Val into the Haunted Forest to deliver his truce to Tormund. Though Mance may suspect Jon intends to bring the wildlings south of the Wall to defend it, beginning with Tormund, he can't actually know that the alliance's gone through and, consequently, Jon has the men to challenge the Boltons. Stannis is the only party at Winterfell I can see, at a stretch, learning of this. Tycho Nestoris is gone before Val returns to Castle Black with Tormund, but Melisandre or Selyse could've informed Stannis by r-mail.

Thanks a lot. As if I couldn't wait enough for Winds of Winter. I will name you with my evening prayers for making me more anxious to find out what the shit happens in the North now. I feel retarded for missing that, but Robb's will hasn't been mentioned at ALL, and the time is ripe. Seven Hells. I really hope the paperback ADwD sample chapter is another Northern or Wall POV. Go bugger yourself.

[PrinceHenryris]

I don't know it's just me, but aren't there too many heirs to the North?

Robb's potential child by Jeyne;

Jon Snow - if named in Robb's Will;

Bran Stark - as of ADWD unlikely to ever claim Winterfell;

Rickon Stark - a true Stark, but where he is and what he's like remains mystery;

Sansa Stark - if she makes her claim with the might of the Vale behind her, it's a possibility; and

Arya Stark - if she ever returns to Westeros as Arya, she'll have all the skills she ever learned and a mammoth wolf pack.

So it looks like six potential heirs. That's bound to cause problems.