Citadel theory

[TyrionFan82]

Okay I finished AFFC yesterday and since letting the book gestate I have a theory about the end. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'm tossing it out there.

At the end Maester Marwyn tells Sam how the Citadel is working on creating a world devoid of magic, sorcery, & dragons especially, right? I got thinking though about how Maester Luwin always told Bran all of Old Nan's stories were just that, stories so could it be possible Maester Luwin was not just saying that to take any fanciful ideas from Bran but because the Citadel instructs all maesters to to actively discourage those things being sought or discussed seriously?

[Wight Walker]

Well, yeah. Being a Maester he probably doesn't believe in things like that so he would obviously tell Bran to not take them seriously.

How is this really a theory though?

[gougef]

Search around on the forum some for the great Citadel conspiracy. A theory that the Citadel is manipulating everything.

[TyrionFan82]

Okay, maybe not theory, but, well it was an idea that, like gougef said the Citadel may be behind the death of magic. I've yet to read ADWD so don't know how it plays out there, but that line just reminded me of Maester Luwin. It'd be interesting to know if other maesters were doing the same with their lordlings.

[LuisDantas]

Maester Luwin (along with Archmaester Marwyn, obviously, and Qyburn) was in fact one of the few who bothered to study magic.

I have a hard time giving Marwyn's conspiracy ideas credibility, myself. Maybe I'm projecting a bit about how harmful wild belief is in real life and how misjudged science men are.

[TyrionFan82]

I do recall that about Maester Luwin. I thought AFFC's end was awesome honestly. It made me wonder what the Citadel's larrger role has been/will be and how will this effect Dany in the future. It seems like just when you think you know all the players another faction gets introduced.....don't get me wrong though I love that about this series.

[ckal]

I was surprised at Marwyn's reveal of the Citadel's intentions and influence on the happenings of the realm. I just wonder HOW they are involved in it, since Marwyn basically said that it was the Citadel who killed all the dragons.

[TyrionFan82]

Yea, I know. I'm wondering how they'll come into Dany's story too. It seems like Dany will have more than the Houses when she returns, which I love because it ads to whole new dimension to it.

[LuisDantas]

Is it fair to call it a "reveal"? It did not look anything like that to me. More like Marwyn's pet belief. A bit like those who know that the jews want to have all the money in the world, or that the trip to the moon was faked in a tv studio.

It may even turn out that Marwyn is correct, but so far it is speculative at best.

Don't get me wrong, I like that plot, as well as Lady Dustin's statements of mistrust about the Citadel. It would be a bit boring if the Maesters had no mistrusters. That said, I just don't believe there is any substance to that mistrust.

Maybe it comes from seeing how unreliable and biased believers in magic are in real life and how tricky and dangerous actual magic is in Westeros and Essos, but at the end of the day I simply don't see any reason to take Marwyn at his word, while there are plenty of reasons to take a few grains of salt with his claims.

It doesn't help that he was friendly with Qyburn and taught the blood witch that Daenerys met in the first book, either. If one can judge a man by his friends, then I must say that Archmaester Marwyn leaves a lot to be desired.

There is also the matter that the whole notion is basically backed up by his word alone, with nothing else in the way of evidence. Seeing how he was raised to Archmaester by the very organization that he speaks so ill of, my first instinct is to assume that his colleagues simply don't mind his suspicions because they have nothing to hide. So far I found no reason to override that first impression.

[LuisDantas]

As for Marwyn interacting with Daenerys, it seems to me to be yet another interaction of one of Daenerys' major themes: she keeps being offered counsel that is ultimately of more value to the counselor than to herself, in large part because she isn't really all that sure of what she wants to accomplish.

Marwyn has an agenda, and we know very little about it other than that it comes at odds with that of the larger Citadel and that it involves a lot of hope for the return of magic (and of Dragons?)

I wonder how Daenerys will deal with him, in large part because Daenerys has an awful track record in choosing the right people to trust, and Marwyn reeks of untrustworthiness.

There is also the matter of his link to Mirri Maz Duur - when and if Daenerys learns or recalls about it, how will it affect her trust of Marwyn (assuming she has any)?

Either way, I just find the hypothetical scenario of Marwyn actually being correct about the Great Citadel Conspiracy and convincing Daenerys of it exceedingly unlikely. Nor do I think Daenerys is done with Essos or even Meereen yet; she must still learn about how poorly her decisions reflected there, and a confrontation with Hizdahr (who I am very certain to be innocent) is bound to happen soon. Maybe we will have some interesting interactions of Marwyn with Tyrion or even Jorah in the meantime.

[LadyMary]

As for Marwyn interacting with Daenerys, it seems to me to be yet another interaction of one of Daenerys' major themes: she keeps being offered counsel that is ultimately of more value to the counselor than to herself, in large part because she isn't really all that sure of what she wants to accomplish.

Marwyn has an agenda, and we know very little about it other than that it comes at odds with that of the larger Citadel and that it involves a lot of hope for the return of magic (and of Dragons?)

I wonder how Daenerys will deal with him, in large part because Daenerys has an awful track record in choosing the right people to trust, and Marwyn reeks of untrustworthiness.

There is also the matter of his link to Mirri Maz Duur - when and if Daenerys learns or recalls about it, how will it affect her trust of Marwyn (assuming she has any)?

Either way, I just find the hypothetical scenario of Marwyn actually being correct about the Great Citadel Conspiracy and convincing Daenerys of it exceedingly unlikely. Nor do I think Daenerys is done with Essos or even Meereen yet; she must still learn about how poorly her decisions reflected there, and a confrontation with Hizdahr (who I am very certain to be innocent) is bound to happen soon. Maybe we will have some interesting interactions of Marwyn with Tyrion or even Jorah in the meantime.

I get the impression that the Citadel is like a modern university where there may be professors of theology, science, math, philosophy, etc., all with their own theories and beliefs. The basic intent is for them to teach their students in their area of expertise, but the professors in different fields may have disagreement based on their own beliefs or practice. They are still respected members of the academic community with a basic underlying oath to serve in common, but they have different attitudes about certain topics.

If the hints from the books prove true, the maesters were responsible for poisoning the last dragons to cause their extinction or at least hastening what was happening naturally. That suggests they knew that magic and dragons were connected and they didn't like magic either because it was not orderly and explainable by their scientific methods, or because the magic threatened their own power to influence powerful lords and ladies.

Within that fraternity more than a hundred years after the last dragon died, a majority of the maester seem sceptical of magic and mystical matters although that may be due to their training and a deliberate campaign to discredit what the maesters in the time of dragons knew was a real force. There are exceptions such as Marwyn who believe in magic and wait for it to return to the world with the rebirth of dragons. Maester Luwin became a sceptic, but he at least he was open to studying the arcane before he lost his "faith" in magic and wears a Valyrian steel link as a result.

I will be very interested to see what influence Sam's real experience with magic will have on the maesters of the Citadel. He's seen the Others and fought one.

[Free Man]

I believe that Master Lewin did like magic when younger, but he was no good at it... His speaches with Bran are just vents for his despair on what he failed to achieve, and now believes can not be achieved. I do not believe Lewin would lie a Stark, he was sworn to serve them and always did

[Sigrid]

I have thought that the Faith of the Seven and the Maesters combined were supposed to be a nod to the medieval catholic church. So far there hasn't been much of an indication that the maesters individually or as a group have an agenda outside their duties to the castles they work in, but now that we are getting a point of view from inside the Citadel we may learn more about its hierarchy and motives.

[LuisDantas]

I believe that Master Lewin did like magic when younger, but he was no good at it... His speaches with Bran are just vents for his despair on what he failed to achieve, and now believes can not be achieved. I do not believe Lewin would lie a Stark, he was sworn to serve them and always did

It is a possibility. However, a stronger one is that he is disappointed by how worthless magic is, given its price (usually in blood).