[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[Tetrarch42]

Don't think so. His claim to fame was his warrior attributes--not his deep thinking. His forary into religion is one example of his avoidance of deep thought. His inability to compromise for his own benefit is another. He does better than some morons in that world, but he does not compare to the above average thinkers I listed.

If you're taking military strategy as an index of intelligence then Stannis has all the "above-average" thinkers you listed beat. He outmanouvered and crushed the most powerful fleet in Westeros, nearly stormed the greatest city on the continent, and smashed Mance Rayders army with 1/20 of his strength.

If not you'll notice that Stannis and Tywin have a pretty similar thought process when it came to politics in King's Landing. Tyrion reflects when considering Varys and Littlefinger as friends or enemies that he might take his father's approach and "mount two heads on spikes", whereas Stannis says "They say the corruption in King's Landing began with Varys, and I won't stop there, I mean to scour the entire court clean...".

[IMPudence]

Don't think so. His claim to fame was his warrior attributes--not his deep thinking. His forary into religion is one example of his avoidance of deep thought. His inability to compromise for his own benefit is another. He does better than some morons in that world, but he does not compare to the above average thinkers I listed.

His "forray" into religion is a political tool..the book pretty much made that clear. And if your qualification of "avoidance of deep thought" is taking up religion, then what does that make the Starks, especially Robb who proved an "above-average" military mind?

[boojam]

it is a scene from SoS , Davos iii ,I think,. Davos is there, the slug stuff is there at the end.

Davos believes it because Stannis never lies.

The context is odd, Stannis and Mel see something about beyond the wall, The Great Other, the threat to all Westeros.

Even by the end of ADWD , what the hell is going on is still a mystery.

[Sister Goldenhair]

i think i'm of the same mind as many people here. i enjoyed season 2, i thought it was fantastic tv, but one of my gripes has been the characterization of stannis. the show gives the impression that he's lusting after the iron throne and the books give the obverse view of it, in that he believes it is his duty to be king. there were some changes i liked, stannis going up the ladder and fighting was one, but overall i think this season didn't spend enough time with him and he came off looking like a villain.

now with melisandre, she's coming off as being a traditional witch that enchants the ruler of a realm, instead of religious fanatic who truely believes that stannis needs to be king. i can't remember the context, i can't remember which book, but there's a line she says that i think is very revealing about her true nature. in effect she says "do you think i would travel half way around the world to put another king on a throne?" obviously not verbatim, but i think that melisandre is the one that should be built up instead of the strictly manipulative one we've been given.

Melisandre also says something in the nature of that she's been fighting these battle much longer than Stannis can even imagine, meaning she is very old (older than a normal human/witch would be) and of course the stone/glamour she wears covers who she really is.

[Mad Queen]

Nope. Stannis knows her god is something. He knows that her god led to the murder of Renly.

He murdered Renly, but in battle a shadow baby is useless. The Lannisters won because they had a larger army, not because their gods were more powerful than Melisandre's. I think that was Stannis's point. Melisandre's magic only goes so far.

[Ser Giant]

I'm okay with the violence of the scene. If Stannis in book 3 is any indication he is going to a very dark place for a long time. Being nasty like that is understandable for book 2 Stannis post Blackwater.

Him leading the land attack also needs to be considered. He saw one of his men's heads smashed by a rock and probably still has blood/brains in his eyes/hair/everywhere. It was a pretty calculated lapse in anger if you ask me.

[Lord Wadsworth]

I think maybe the people who like this scene are people who really like Stannis as a character by himself and feel that Mel is a bad influence on him.

At least that's my biggest reason as to why I like it. I've never liked Mel in the books or show. Stannis has always been my favorite Baratheon.

[Harrad]

If you're taking military strategy as an index of intelligence then Stannis has all the "above-average" thinkers you listed beat. He outmanouvered and crushed the most powerful fleet in Westeros, nearly stormed the greatest city on the continent, and smashed Mance Rayders army with 1/20 of his strength.

Your description of Stannis military prowess reminds me of Sir Robin who nearly defeated the Chicken of Bristol. He was a minor general in Roberts great rebellion, he crushed the most powerful fleet? that was done by Stark etc at Pyke, he lost the sea and land battle at KL. His one triumph in GoT, the books, was when he surprised a disorganized "army" of wildlings and defeated them with an organized force, the same way the Night Watch had done for 1000 years before they lost nearly all their strength. I would not put my faith in Stannis to defeat the Lannisters in a fair fight, the Starks, or even his effete brother.

[from the arbor]

Your description of Stannis military prowess reminds me of Sir Robin who nearly defeated the Chicken of Bristol. He was a minor general in Roberts great rebellion, he crushed the most powerful fleet? that was done by Stark etc at Pyke, he lost the sea and land battle at KL. His one triumph in GoT, the books, was when he surprised a disorganized "army" of wildlings and defeated them with an organized force, the same way the Night Watch had done for 1000 years before they lost nearly all their strength. I would not put my faith in Stannis to defeat the Lannisters in a fair fight, the Starks, or even his effete brother.

Starks? No, but I would bet Stannis wins 9 out of 10 times against the Lannister bannermen.

[Harrad]

The Lannisters won because they had a larger army, not because their gods were more powerful than Melisandre's. I think that was Stannis's point. Melisandre's magic only goes so far.

The Lannisters won because Stannis lost his fleet to Tyrion's trick and then got his rather large army trapped between the walls and Tywin. This great general made a few serious boo-boos. I guess he forgot to leave a real guard or to scout for the appearance of an enemy at his back....ooopsie

[Lord Wadsworth]

Your description of Stannis military prowess reminds me of Sir Robin who nearly defeated the Chicken of Bristol. He was a minor general in Roberts great rebellion, he crushed the most powerful fleet? that was done by Stark etc at Pyke, he lost the sea and land battle at KL. His one triumph in GoT, the books, was when he surprised a disorganized "army" of wildlings and defeated them with an organized force, the same way the Night Watch had done for 1000 years before they lost nearly all their strength. I would not put my faith in Stannis to defeat the Lannisters in a fair fight, the Starks, or even his effete brother.

I'm quite certain you're wrong about the bolded bit.During Robert's Rebellion Stannis commanded the Royal Fleet that destroyed much of the Iron Fleet. He also held Storm's End until Ned showed up to relieve him of the enemy.

He was also charged with taking Dragonstone by sea. Which he did and ruled over ever since then.

Stannis is a brilliant tactician especially when it comes to naval warfare it seems. I wouldn't call defeating the Iron Fleet an easy task.

[Harrad]

Stannis is a brilliant tactician especially when it comes to naval warfare it seems. I wouldn't call defeating the Iron Fleet an easy task.

How about losing his fleet to Tyrion's trick? How brilliant was that? You want to cherrypick his victories and forget his defeats. I don't think great generalship or admiralship works that way.

[Lord Wadsworth]

How about losing his fleet to Tyrion's trick? How brilliant was that? You want to cherrypick his victories and forget his defeats. I don't think great generalship or admiralship works that way.

Ser Imry is to blame for that. He was over confident in his numbers and pushed ahead without scouting the river. I'm not sure they could have predicted the wildfire being used. As that was foolhardy. The wildfire even destroyed the small Royal Fleet.

The chain was a brilliant idea by Tyrion and Ser Imry didn't account for that and went ahead brashly.

Stannis almost won the Battle of Blackwater, they'd have lost had the Tyrells not come riding up to save them all.

Mistakes were made but Stannis is still very intelligent. You're citing only one loss. While a big one, wasn't strictly Stannis' fault.

[Harrad]

Stannis almost won the Battle of Blackwater, they'd have lost had the Tyrells not come riding up to save them all.

Mistakes were made but Stannis is still very intelligent. You're citing only one loss. While a big one, wasn't strictly Stannis' fault.

All right. I guess you never heard "The buck stops here." Stannis' victories are due to him. His defeats are other peoples faults. I can see that. I just wouldnt want a general/admiral with his average win-some, lose-some record. I would prefer ones that took names and kicked butt.

[Lord Wadsworth]

All right. I guess you never heard "The buck stops here." Stannis' victories are due to him. His defeats are other peoples faults. I can see that. I just wouldnt want a general/admiral with his average win-some, lose-some record. I would prefer ones that took names and kicked butt.

Which he did. He can't be blamed for the Tyrells coming out of nowhere to wreck him. He nearly won the Battle of Blackwater. Also, seeing as how Stannis gave command of the fleet to Ser Imry, that's kind of a big thing.

It'd be like Eisenhower giving a guy command of a platoon and that guy running that platoon straight into a minefield without sending scouts.

Ser Imry failed in his duties, it was a big set back but Stannis still managed to pull through. The only problem was the unforeseeable; The Tyrells.

[Harrad]

It'd be like Eisenhower giving a guy command of a platoon and that guy running that platoon straight into a minefield without sending scouts.

The only problem was the unforeseeable; The Tyrells.

Ridiculous. A commander is judged by the subordinates he picks. Eisenhower would be faulted if D-Day failed, not some lower level commander. Most importantly, in war, dealing with the unforseen is what separates a good commander from a bad one. To be taken by surprise in the rear is unforgivable.

[Lord Wadsworth]

Ridiculous. A commander is judged by the subordinates he picks. Eisenhower would be faulted if D-Day failed, not some lower level commander. Most importantly, in war, dealing with the unforseen is what separates a good commander from a bad one. To be taken by surprise in the rear is unforgivable.

Nobody knew about the Tyrells.

Stannis will get the blame, but it's not technically his fault. It'll go down as a loss for him, but it wasn't his hands on command that caused the problem. Ser Imry made a mistake that screwed Stannis with his pants on.

But still, nobody knew about the Tyrells. They came full force and nobody expected them.

[Harrad]

You're right. The succesful generals know where the enemy is, probably from reading the book beforehand. Its like General Custer. He had no idea there were 10000 Sioux over the next ridge and it wasn't his fault since nobody expected them.

[Lord Wadsworth]

I think you just don't like Stannis.

Tywin's forces were meeting Robb's forces in the Westerlands and were going to chase him around. However near Riverrun Edmure ran out and attacked Tywin which gave him a delay. This delay allowed Tywin to get word that Stannis was marching on King's Landing.

Everyone though Tywin would be fighitng the Northmen.

The Tyrells were at Bitterbridge and got contacted by Littlefinger. They then joined up with Tywin Lannister. It was by pure luck they reached Stannis in time.

Tywin was an unpredictable element that Stannis believed, as did many others had Edmure not made his folly, was busy having different battles. And there's no telling what the Tyrells would have done had Tywin not come swooping by.

[Mad Queen]

The Lannisters won because Stannis lost his fleet to Tyrion's trick and then got his rather large army trapped between the walls and Tywin. This great general made a few serious boo-boos. I guess he forgot to leave a real guard or to scout for the appearance of an enemy at his back....ooopsie

I guess Stannis's point was that his defeat at King's Landing was a matter of strategy and military strength, not religion or magic. Tywin "strangled" Stannis as Stannis strangled Mel and Rhllor didn't interfere to save them.