[Book Spoilers] Stannis and Melisandre

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Means to an end. Save the realm to win the throne.

[Harrad]

Looking at the big picture, I don't see Stannis as either the savior of the realm or the winner of the throne. If there was any sense in the way Kingdoms are run he would be the rightful heir of Robert, first of his name. Why was Robert first of his name? Because he had rebelled against the last "rightful king." And why was Targaryan the rightful king? Because his family has beaten the last 7 "rightful" kings. Mebe you all havent been paying attention to real life but heriditary absolute monarchy's are for shit. In the Darwinian evolution of human ruling systems how many are left? So Stannis has the same "right" as anyone else...if he can win it, he gets it.

In the final anlaysis the only vote that matter for Stannis, is GRRM's. And I don't see GRRM picking Stannis out of the current contenders. Dany has a better right than Stannis, since her right precedes his. I dont see GRRM picking her either. I wonder whether GRRM is going to let any heriditary absolute monarch win. It would be very cool if he did not.

[Aetherick]

In the books it is mentioned that Stannis did have scouts and outriders but Tyrions wildmen kept harassing and killing them all even when stannis' troops burned the forest to flush them out. So people saying that he did not post scouts and outriders are wrong, it's just that Tyrion did the smart thing and sent his wildmen to kill them all with guerilla tactics. Also there was a rearguard, because that's how Stannis escaped the battle. The Bastard of Nightsong led a rearguard charge so the rest could retreat.

[Harrad]

In the books it is mentioned that Stannis did have scouts and outriders but Tyrions wildmen kept harassing and killing them all even when stannis' troops burned the forest to flush them out.

War is measures and countermeasures. If Stannis at the end is surprised in the rear, that's his fault. The buck stops with the commanding general.

[Lord Wadsworth]

I think there's a lot of Stannis hate just spilling into this thread, not really accounting for actual conditions just their general dislike for Stannis.

[Harrad]

I think there's a lot of Stannis hate just spilling into this thread, not really accounting for actual conditions just their general dislike for Stannis.

Get a grip. Stannis is a fictional character that his boosters here want to say is a great general and all around shoo-in for the unsullied Iron Crown. So far he is 1*-1 in battles (*victory over Renly's forces enabled by murder of Renley). He is in the middle of the pack of contenders at best.

[Rockroi]

Get a grip. Stannis is a fictional character that his boosters here want to say is a great general and all around shoo-in for the unsullied Iron Crown. So far he is 1*-1 in battles (*victory over Renly's forces enabled by murder of Renley). He is in the middle of the pack of contenders at best.

Wait... who... who has to get a grip again?

[DurararaFTW]

War is measures and countermeasures. If Stannis at the end is surprised in the rear, that's his fault. The buck stops with the commanding general.

And it's ultimately nobody but Tyrion's fault that Tywin's rescue ever needed, or an nobody but his owns fault that Jaime was ever captured, and Tywin's fault that he ghot his ass handed to be him Robb all war long and renlys fault that he didn't see Melisandre coming, or at least some trick nehind his brothers confidence despite his numbers. That don't make them bad battlecommanders.

[from the arbor]

Get a grip. Stannis is a fictional character that his boosters here want to say is a great general and all around shoo-in for the unsullied Iron Crown. So far he is 1*-1 in battles (*victory over Renly's forces enabled by murder of Renley). He is in the middle of the pack of contenders at best.

No one is saying he's the greatest general of all time. He might be mediocre, but compared to other generals in the books he's very good.

[Harrad]

And it's ultimately nobody but Tyrion's fault that Tywin's rescue ever needed, or an nobody but his owns fault that Jaime was ever captured, and Tywin's fault that he ghot his ass handed to be him Robb all war long and renlys fault that he didn't see Melisandre coming, or at least some trick nehind his brothers confidence despite his numbers. That don't make them bad battlecommanders.

Renley wasn't a commanding general. He was a poor sap murdered by a supernatural being. Robb is proven to be a better tactician than all the Lannisters put together. Its his strategy that is suspect. Jaime is a good hand-to-hand fighter, but as a commanding general, rather lacking. Stannis is the middle of the pack as shown by his battlefield results.

[Aetherick]

War is measures and countermeasures. If Stannis at the end is surprised in the rear, that's his fault. The buck stops with the commanding general.

Sure war is measures and countermeasures but I was just pointing out that he did, in fact have scouts and outriders. There's a huge difference between being incompetent and having no scouts and making precautions but being countered by an equally intelligent enemy commander.

[Tetrarch42]

That is the heart of it isn't it. Save the realm to win the throne. Really what Stannis did wasn't saving the realm by fighting the Wildlings was it? The Wildlings weren't going to crush Westeros. So even in this statement how else to take it other than its all about perception. Fight the wildlings at the wall so the North will rally to your cause(for their perceived savior). That and fighting back against pretenders in the north.

Davos makes Stannis aware that the Wall is at serious risk of being overtaken by the Wildlings, which would lead to thousands of potentially violent, and certainly deperate people being set free in Westeros. If the Night's Watch falls then there's nobody to guard the Wall from the Others, which are an existential risk to the entire realm(as Melisandre and Stannis are well aware of). The Wildlings won't help hold the Wall, certainly not with a voice of reason like Jon, Mance, Tormund, Stannis, and the Magnar getting together to unite them with purpose.

The Wildlings weren't going to crush Westeros, and nobody suggested so. They would however crush the Wall, and the Night's Watch, the military order dedicated to "defending the realm from what lies beyond".

[Harrad]

Sure war is measures and countermeasures but I was just pointing out that he did, in fact have scouts and outriders. There's a huge difference between being incompetent and having no scouts and making precautions but being countered by an equally intelligent enemy commander.

I agree with you. He wasn't a moron, as for example, Joffrey would be as a commanding general. He was mediocre. He had a decent plan but not a great one. A decent plan has a 50-50 chance of winning. A great plan is 90-10. A great general stacks the odds in his favor.

[ServantOnIce]

In my IMHO, that was pathetic. Stannis is supposed to represent determination(to the point of stuborness at times), having him mop around about Renly(someone that declared himself as a enemy of Stannis) is just absurd. Tv viewers will see Stannis from now on as a Villain, and that seem to be the intent of the Show producers. I personally don't really care about Stannis/Melisandre storyline from now on, they coulld just have died in Blackwater battle for all i care.

Based on their interpretation of Stannis (we all interpret things differently) from the "Extras" on HBOGo They see Stannis as a guy who has honor but who is so stubborn that he will DO ANYTHING to get the crown that he believes that is his. While Ned was an honorable good person, Stannis is a stubborn person who only sees things his way.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

There are some statements here I can agree with. I think every major house in Westeros is too blame for the wall not being manned properly except the Starks. I also like the idea of none of the hereditary monarch lines winning the throne but it going to a guy like Davos Seaworth. If he continues his learning of reading and writing he could make a great king. I think we could keep going with more characters that have no supposed right to the throne and that could prove very interesting.

[Tetrarch42]

There are some statements here I can agree with. I think every major house in Westeros is too blame for the wall not being manned properly except the Starks. I also like the idea of none of the hereditary monarch lines winning the throne but it going to a guy like Davos Seaworth. If he continues his learning of reading and writing he could make a great king. I think we could keep going with more characters that have no supposed right to the throne and that could prove very interesting.

I certainly don't think Stannis is faultless, he's obviously very conflicted and even somewhat broken but I think the broad strokes of the character are; determined, righteous, loyal, selfless, and oddly enough, humble. Stannis as King with Davos as his Hand would make for the best rule during the coming Long Night I feel. Stannis is utterly determined and has an adamant dedication to his percieved duty as a King, to defend the realm. But that determination is also a fault, he's willing to stoop to detestable levels(like willing to sacrifice Edric Storm) unless his personality is tempered by someone like Davos.

Edit: I think Davos is one of the only characters who can be considered truly moral.

[Harrad]

Edit: I think Davos is one of the only characters who can be considered truly moral.

Among the "moral" characters are all the Starks (can't really think of any of them that isnt), Tyrion (yes him), Dany, Night Watch Commander, Blackfish, The Dancing Master, and even Bronn in his own way. There's plenty of morality if you look for it.

[Ser Giant]

"truly moral" not "has done a moral thing once in there life." Dany may as well be the wicked witch of the east, she has done awful things and her entire existence is about her and her alone. The same can be argued for Tyrion. Bronn is a sellsword and killed his way to the top for things.

The Starks, to a certain extent sure, the others we don't know enough about to comment.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Bronn, he of the "how much?" to murdering a baby, is moral? Really? Bronn is about as amoral as they come.

[baxter]

First off, I despised book Stannis until he got to the Wall, and even then I find him so one dimensional that he isn't enjoyable. So I'm a bit surprised people consider him their favorite character. He's almost unbearable to read about.

Secondly, people need to accept this is a TV show that is going to be an adaptation of the books. They have to change it up to make it acceptable to a broad audience. Not to mention, GRRM has written this for the better part of two decades and is heavily involved in the show and has decades of experience with TV writing. You don't think after the long period between the early novels and the latest that he may have wanted to change certain things? This was originally written as a trilogy and after every book he realized he would have to write more books. Heck, he's even said that because certain characters have hit it off so well on screen that he may write more lines for them in the future.

Lastly, I thought the scene was brilliant, it shows exactly how powerless Mel really is outside of her magic (and that she accepts it by not fighting back), it shows that Stannis has resolve and self realization, and that he also has control over his actions. I don't know why people complain about this being like a soap opera, the whole book series is sprawling soap opera.

You should at least be happy that the season has been a massive success, because that means the budget will swell while they split ASoS into two seasons. That means we actually will get more detailed episodes, characters, and battle sequences that don't have to be refined to night time attacks to limit scope.