Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The problem with the assumption that Dany will actually have to conquer Westeros is the fact that the whole subplot about the various political factions weakening each other in more or less pointless attempts to gain the Iron Throne would be pretty pointless if Dany were to face a united front. A united front she can only break with dragon fire.Westeros will bleed itself dry. Even if Aegon is going to sit securely on the Iron Throne when Dany arrives, there won't be much peasants left to wage the second Dance of Dragons. And if Aegon fails and Tommen/Myrcella are still figure heads of a Tyrell/Lannister regime, no one is going to back them when Rhaegar's sister arrives with three grown up dragons. Not in the thick of winter.But my guess is that the Iron Throne will no longer matter all that much when walking corpses and gigantic ice spiders stalk the living in a winter where the smallfolk will be starve/freeze to death before the first year is over.True, Dany might come to Westeros with the intention to conquer it, but since she is most likely Azor Ahai, her actual task will involve different stuff. Yes, Daenerys knows virtually nothing about her true destiny as of yet, but this is going to change. Moqorro is on his way to her, as is Archmaester Marwyn. They will tell her about her the Others, her destiny and the various prophecies foretelling her coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Coud I ask one thing? How can the Others by-pass the wall? I thought it had been established that they could not by-pass it and that its magic held them at bay? Unless they have acquired that horn of course. But how can you assault a wall which repells you with magic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 1. They could breach the Wall /break its spell with some counter magic (i.e. the Horn of Joramun, for example). Do you think that horn was established just because GRRM likes to put some big horns into his story?2. They could bypass the Wall and the Night's Watch by sea. After all, the Others should be able to build boats/floats (or put the wights to do it). And even if they should not be able to do this for some reason, ADwD established that the wights can swim. 'Dead things in the water', remember? The Wall is not that wide. All the Others need do is to command the wights to swim around Eastwatch/through the Bay of Ice.My guess is that the wights will show up on the Iron Islands in the near future, and Aeron Greyjoy will make a deal with the Others (mistaking the wights for some sign of the Drowned God to help him to cast Aeron down). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 My guess is that the wights will show up on the Iron Islands in the near future, and Aeron Greyjoy will make a deal with the Others (mistaking the wights for some sign of the Drowned God to help him to cast Aeron down).Wow.How would the others know to reason with this man? They haven't attempted any communication or reasoning. My impression, though we know nothing about them, is that they're just destruction incarnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Well, that would be the one thing that could justify further Aeron Greyjoy chapters, would it not? Chapters with him playing Robin Hood upon Pyke evading the evil Sheriff of Nottingham Lord Steward of Pyke (Erik Anvilbreaker) would be rather boring. Especially since ADwD established that Aeron has disappeared. He is no longer on the islands, and neither Asha, nor Vic or Euron have a clue where he is. Since it's unlikely that he would look for help in the green lands, where the hell would he go?Up north by ship is as likely as anything else...Oh, and by the way: Craster established that it is possible to make a deal with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar The Rocker Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I like idea that Aegon will win over the faith. That said, Cersei reinstating the Faith Militant was one of the worst ideas she's had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yeah I find it hard to believe that Martin would introduce religious aspects from two antagonistic faiths into Westeros; the seven and the fire worshippers/ Plus, religion was very important to medieval rulers, though he has down-played that aspect for most of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelestis Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 1. They could breach the Wall /break its spell with some counter magic (i.e. the Horn of Joramun, for example). Do you think that horn was established just because GRRM likes to put some big horns into his story?2. They could bypass the Wall and the Night's Watch by sea. After all, the Others should be able to build boats/floats (or put the wights to do it). And even if they should not be able to do this for some reason, ADwD established that the wights can swim. 'Dead things in the water', remember? The Wall is not that wide. All the Others need do is to command the wights to swim around Eastwatch/through the Bay of Ice.My guess is that the wights will show up on the Iron Islands in the near future, and Aeron Greyjoy will make a deal with the Others (mistaking the wights for some sign of the Drowned God to help him to cast Aeron down).Also like to add that another common theory is that the magic protection of the Wall is about to crumble. Old Nan specifically mentions in her theory that the dangers in the lands beyond it can't pass "so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true." I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea. The Night's Watch just killed (or at the very least, attempted to assassinate) their second Lord Commander in a row.In fact, unless someone like Melisandre seizes control on behalf of Stannis, I'm afraid a conflict between the Wildlings will tear the Night's Watch apart, regardless of whether Jon's dead or not.Either way, whether the Wall goes down or the Others go by sea, I'm absolutely certain they will make their appearance in force in the next book, or 'The Winds of Winter' would be a pretty shitty title.The problem is that I can see Dany realising that she has a greater role to play than just being a conqueror and uses her dragons to help fight the Others, but wants the North's support in return. If this happens and the Others haven't passed far south enough yet to wake the rest of the Seven Kingdoms up to the true threat, this will pretty much force the North to side with 'the enemy', as Dany will very likely be declared as such by Aegon and the Faith if she embraces the Lord of Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Also like to add that another common theory is that the magic protection of the Wall is about to crumble. Old Nan specifically mentions in her theory that the dangers in the lands beyond it can't pass "so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true." I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea. The Night's Watch just killed (or at the very least, attempted to assassinate) their second Lord Commander in a row.In fact, unless someone like Melisandre seizes control on behalf of Stannis, I'm afraid a conflict between the Wildlings will tear the Night's Watch apart, regardless of whether Jon's dead or not.Either way, whether the Wall goes down or the Others go by sea, I'm absolutely certain they will make their appearance in force in the next book, or 'The Winds of Winter' would be a pretty shitty title.The problem is that I can see Dany realising that she has a greater role to play than just being a conqueror and uses her dragons to help fight the Others, but wants the North's support in return. If this happens and the Others haven't passed far south enough yet to wake the rest of the Seven Kingdoms up to the true threat, this will pretty much force the North to side with 'the enemy', as Dany will very likely be declared as such by Aegon and the Faith if she embraces the Lord of Light.I don't think the North would be in a position to support Dany and be too concerned with the undead horde. If Aegon wins he'll probably be amassing a collossal army to head North and try to push the others back. Then Dany shows up. I think Varys might, upon meeting Aegon, convince him that Dany is bad news and slowly push him towards marrying someother queen;Arianne, Margery, even Sansa. So far as they're all aware and Illyrios knowledge of Danys fairly honourable character they've got no reason to assume that somebody has planted the idea of a pretender in her mind and might assume that she'd be fine marrying the Lord of some great house; probably Tyrell or even Connington might be suggested if YG is that grateful to him. Hell, if they're planning on completely giving the Stormlands to JC they might even think that after they depose of House Lannister they should just give all their lands to Danny. I think JC was massively against Aegon marrying somebody else because he was just overly cautious, his loss against Beratheon seems to have drilled that into him and it would be easy to forget Dany if shes trapped in Mereen and already married somebody. If Arrianne were to spill the beans about Quentyn going East then why would they assume that she hadn't married him on the spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valmorfëa Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Do you think that horn was established just because GRRM likes to put some big horns into his story? :lmao:Tormund might argue that those are just metaphors for his own big horn...I don't think the North would be in a position to support Dany and be too concerned with the undead horde. If Aegon wins he'll probably be amassing a collossal army to head North and try to push the others back. Then Dany shows up. I think Varys might, upon meeting Aegon, convince him that Dany is bad news and slowly push him towards marrying someother queen;Arianne, Margery, even Sansa. So far as they're all aware and Illyrios knowledge of Danys fairly honourable character they've got no reason to assume that somebody has planted the idea of a pretender in her mind and might assume that she'd be fine marrying the Lord of some great house; probably Tyrell or even Connington might be suggested if YG is that grateful to him. Hell, if they're planning on completely giving the Stormlands to JC they might even think that after they depose of House Lannister they should just give all their lands to Danny. I think JC was massively against Aegon marrying somebody else because he was just overly cautious, his loss against Beratheon seems to have drilled that into him and it would be easy to forget Dany if shes trapped in Mereen and already married somebody. If Arrianne were to spill the beans about Quentyn going East then why would they assume that she hadn't married him on the spot?Regarding Dany's marriage options:Connington is a deadman walking, so no.The Tyrells have Wyllas (a cripple), Loras (who is in the KG and he is gay anyway), and Garlan (who is in the KG as well? I can't remember. Either way she's not gonna marry him).Regarding Aegon's marriage options:He's already related to the Martells, there is no advantage to him marrying Arianne.I doubt that Margaery is still marriage-material, and even so, I don't see the Tyrells being against a Aegon anyway, they'll side with whoever has the most power either way.Remains to be seen for Sansa... she has yet to bring anything to the table. The North belongs to no one (yet) and the only way for her to have anything atm is to marry Harry the Heir.Why would Varys be against Dany? Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre, it is still in their best interest to have her as an ally. She has dragons. The best thing for anyone is to get her and Aegon to marry - especially in light of the Others being on their way. More wars would just deplete the 7K to the point where there is no food or warriors left. Also there's no way Dany will accept anything short of the Iron Throne, not after everything she's been through and fought for. Even suggesting that she be given a little castle and some land will probably get you roasted on the spot.From what we've seen so far of Dany she seems more than wary of magic and religion, I don't see her suddenly adopting some sort of religious fervour for R'hollor. Besides, we already have that in Stannis. She sees her ancestors as her 'idols' and the Targs worshipped the Seven (see Baelor the Blessed). I think it depends more on whether the High Septon sees dragons as demons or not, unrelated to Aegon. Though he seems like a relatively smart man, and meeting Dany would be enough to convince him she's not crazy Aerys. I'd actually see the Faith declaring for Dany, rather than Aegon! She is the champion of the common folk (somewhat), it kind of goes in line with the Sparrows and whatnot (unless they want to rule...).But what if the Faith was behind the disappearance of the dragons? Now THAT would make for some interesting confrontations in King's Landing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I was suggesting that Aegon would deflame her for the purposes of propaganda. Whilst she probably could convince a lot of people in person that shes nice and all for the smallfolk she can't affect propaganda made by her enemies which can have a fair basis in fact. The FW do believe that she is AA. She has a hoarde of all sorts of evil armies and villains. If somebody described you about this Queen using three dragons to carve out an Empire in the East with Fire and Blood then she'd seem closer to Sauron than anything else!They will come to blows because Dany knows of a mummers dragon. Because Aegon needs allies and is headstrong enough to be determined to win. He already ignored JC advice about meeting up with her first. If Margery or Arianne are offered up then he would be tempted. He was born to get revenge for his family and rule. He absolutely resented when Tyrion said that he would live in Danys shadow. He wants the glory of conquering Westeros without her. Since shes trapped in Mereen its easy to imagine him forgetting or devaluing the importance of not denying Dany her reward. Maybe if he hears of her success he might assume that she is content with ruling for the Targ Dynasty in the East whilst he holds Westeros. Plus, the very name A Dance with Dragons is a reference to a civil war between the Targs; which to me suggests a conflict in the making. I'll grant you that Aegon doesn't seem like he has the common touch that the sparrows would want and is certainly no man of faith. But he could do it, at least initially and I just think that it would be funny if Dany is demonised when she intially comes to Westeros but is actually nothing like her enemies paint her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Aegon and his supporters want Him to be free to Marry Dany but they are in Westeros Now and she is not. Another marriage alliance might give them the support they need therefore, Sansa and Margeary (once Tommen is dead or marriage annulled for lack of consumation on both of them is granted) or the beloved princess or Dorne. Dany would become unneeded. Her support would be most appreciated but Aegon has already shown himself to be very impulsive, not thinking through much before actin. (not good for a man who wants be be supreme ruler of a kingdom the size of South America). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Something has to happen before Aegon and his allies end up openly opposing Daenerys.Aegon truly has to sit securely on the Iron Throne before this would make any sense. Although I believe Varys/Illyrio and the Martells could seat Aegon on the Iron Throne in the end of TWoW, I very much doubt even them will be able to deal with all the opposition in the south.Aegon will be king as soon as he takes King's Landing, but this does not necessarily mean that Lannisters/Tyrell will quietly back down. If Tommen or Myrcella are still alive then, Cersei will do anything in her power to destory Aegon (and even more so, if they are dead), the Realm, House Lannister, and everyone else be damned. So technically Aegon might still need Dany's help even if he is on the Iron Throne. Antagonizing her without good reason would only cause problems.And for second Dance of Dragons, the dragons have to be split up. This would be possible, I think, if Euron somehow ends up stealing a dragon from Victarion through an agent (the Dusky Woman) after Dragonbinder has successfully enslaved Viserion and Rhaegal (or most likely only one of them).Thus a dragon could get to Westeros long before Dany arrives there. If Dany still controlled/commanded all her dragons when she finally arrived in Westeros, she would have little problems. No one would in Aegon's camp would dare oppose her. But if Aegon got somehow his own dragon, things would be different indeed. Then Aegon could even style himself as the prince that was promised, just as Rhaegar believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 IMO I've never been a big fan of Dany losing the dragons because, frankly she has yet to actually benefit from them in any serious way to make their loss particularly palpable. Its just something the author has put off for most of the series and then randomly another Targ gets a dragon or funny magics show up to control them. If they were being used and it were a reversal I could understand but she hasn't really benefitted from having these dragons most of the series. Losing them would be, well, WTF and more rubbing salt in the wounds coz the author decided to keep Dany in Essos for most of the series.IMO I felt Dance with Dragons simply refered to a Targ civil war without carrying any connotations of the Blackfryes. Targarians are, like many noble houses, refered to by their heraldric beast names ie The Young Wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 once the High Sparrow learns of Ser Robert Strong and what he really is, I believe this is all but certain. Cercie's unbeatable champion will in the end be what undoes House Lannister’s control of King’s Landing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 A second Dance of Dragons would have to be a war fought with dragons. The living, fire-breathing dragons were the thing which named the first Dance of Dragons. Else the first Blackfyre rebellion could have been named the second Dance of Dragons. After all, both Daeron the Good and Daemon Blackfyre were 'dragons' when heraldry is concerned.We should also keep in mind that ADwD already established that Daenerys Targaryen will only be able to control one of her dragons directly. A dragon might know more than one rider in his lifetime, but a rider only rides one dragon in his lifetime. Dany's chosen dragon is Drogon. Viserion and Rhaegal will never be controlled by Dany directly. Even if Viserion and Rhaegal remain in Slaver's Bay until she returns, whoever ends up riding them, might not remain/be Dany's best friends. Riding a dragon will give you an amazing feeling of power and greatness, and a guy like Victarion or Euron is not exactly in Dany's camp right now. Even Tyrion - who is one of the best candidates to become a dragon rider - won't be immune to the seduction of power. Whoever will control Viserion/Rhaegal might very well decide that he is much better suited to rule Westeros/the world than a little girl like Daenerys Targaryen. Especially if the dragons are tamed/subdued before Dany and Drogon return to Meereen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 A second Dance of Dragons would have to be a war fought with dragons. The living, fire-breathing dragons were the thing which named the first Dance of Dragons. Else the first Blackfyre rebellion could have been named the second Dance of Dragons. After all, both Daeron the Good and Daemon Blackfyre were 'dragons' when heraldry is concerned.We should also keep in mind that ADwD already established that Daenerys Targaryen will only be able to control one of her dragons directly. A dragon might know more than one rider in his lifetime, but a rider only rides one dragon in his lifetime. Dany's chosen dragon is Drogon. Viserion and Rhaegal will never be controlled by Dany directly. Even if Viserion and Rhaegal remain in Slaver's Bay until she returns, whoever ends up riding them, might not remain/be Dany's best friends. Riding a dragon will give you an amazing feeling of power and greatness, and a guy like Victarion or Euron is not exactly in Dany's camp right now. Even Tyrion - who is one of the best candidates to become a dragon rider - won't be immune to the seduction of power. Whoever will control Viserion/Rhaegal might very well decide that he is much better suited to rule Westeros/the world than a little girl like Daenerys Targaryen. Especially if the dragons are tamed/subdued before Dany and Drogon return to Meereen.Jorah and Barristan. Their loyalty to her is beyond question.If the author wants to keep people guessing on the legitimacy of Aegon then hes not going to call the book "Blackfrye". Also ADWD the book, didn't actually have the dragons join up with Aegon. I really would like to believe that its simply a metaphorical term to describe a dispute of succesion with the Targs between a male and female Targ. But I genuinely have no desire to see Dragons fighting other dragons and killing other dragons after all this build up. Plus, if Aegon stole Danys thunder by getting to Westeros first coz the plot allowed him to and then stole one of her dragons then it really would be lol worthily bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Well, it could very well be Dany's punishment for being a stupid chick and lingering at Meereen. Neither Selmy nor Jorah will become dragon riders, though. The best candidates are Tyrion (he has been build up for this since AGoT) and Victarion (since he has the magic horn).Although I can't believe Victarion will last more than ten minutes as dragon riders. Either he is going to get himself killed, or Euron's agent will make his move, killing him and/or stealing his dragon.The best candidate for a dragon rider wreaking havoc in Westeros before Dany gets there will be Euron. In fact, becoming a dragon rider will be the only thing making him a real threat to anyone. Eventually Euron's dragon could become Aegon's, but it's just as likely that Euron and the Ironborn will become a danger to Dany and Aegon both. After all, Euron wants to sit on the Iron Throne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Well, it could very well be Dany's punishment for being a stupid chick and lingering at Meereen.Why does everyone blame the character for how the author wanted to write the story? I mean a whole book dedicated to "Dany screws up", is a big waste of time off the back of a book dedicated to "Dany really has a great chance here".Plus if a character uses magic against you then no amount of planning or character traits matter. It would simply be a dues ex machina to toss in some dragon fighting and stack the odds even more against Dany even though she has yet to actually benefit from said Dragons.If you're trying to convince me that dragon fighting would be awesome then you're not really convincing me. ;) Eurons already badass enough with the thousand strong fleet and the retinue of warlocks/faceless men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I meant 'a punishment by the author', of course. The Quentyn tragedy, Aegon's invasion of Westeros, and her disappearing from Meereen is going to backfire on her as well.Why do you think Dany was separated from her other two dragons if not that someone can claim a dragon would not necessarily choose as dragon rider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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