7V3N Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 He might use the horn and might force Dany. But, he is a fire-worshipper, fanatical even and the man who introduced him to this religion Moqorroa, we know believes that Dany is the one. We're also told that even Vic believes himself to be a natural servant and he seems to have an almost obsessive fantasy image about this woman he calls "the most beautiful in the world". He on a daggers edge between being a villain and throwing himself at Danys feet; what he does is meant to be a surprise in the next book. Besides, didn't Euron seduce his wife? Would it not be the greater f u to your brother if Dany married you willingly?We only know that Benerro sent Moqorro to aid Dany. Moqorro seems to give Victarion much more information than is needed (about the dragon horn). For all we know, Moqorro thinks Vic is AA and is taking him to steal the dragons. Of course, that may not be so, but nothing says Moqorro is a definite supporter of Daenerys. Vic has thought multiple times (or said to the dusky woman?) that he plans to force Dany to marry him. You claim speculation as fact. Reread the books or at least do a wiki search or something, because most of what you say is either wrong or just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 We only know that Benerro sent Moqorro to aid Dany. Moqorro seems to give Victarion much more information than is needed (about the dragon horn). For all we know, Moqorro thinks Vic is AA and is taking him to steal the dragons. Of course, that may not be so, but nothing says Moqorro is a definite supporter of Daenerys. Vic has thought multiple times (or said to the dusky woman?) that he plans to force Dany to marry him. You claim speculation as fact. Reread the books or at least do a wiki search or something, because most of what you say is either wrong or just speculation.Oh I know thats what he thinks now. But it wouldn't take much to nudge him toward changing. Benerro is the head priest in Volantis where all the masses are convinced that Dany is AA. Presumably he would send a Red Priest who believes Dany is AA, when he talks to Tyrion he seems quite convinced of this fact and says his mission was to instruct Dany in the faith. Thats still his mission. He seems to be holding out revealing this to Vic because he isn't a total convert and holds to the Drowned God. But if Vic believed that this woman he wants is part divine, then I'am pretty sure his perception and power relation to her changes because she ain't an ordinary woman at that point. How could a man of faith like himself not see the providence and hand of water and fire that he should bring his fleet to Azzor Hai herself? It is supposition but I feel its fairly plausable.I mean come on, Dany likes hard men, epsecially ones soaked in the blood of her enemies, and who rebelled against the usurper... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Oh I know thats what he thinks now. But it wouldn't take much to nudge him toward changing. Benerro is the head priest in Volantis where all the masses are convinced that Dany is AA. Presumably he would send a Red Priest who believes Dany is AA, when he talks to Tyrion he seems quite convinced of this fact and says his mission was to instruct Dany in the faith. Thats still his mission. He seems to be holding out revealing this to Vic because he isn't a total convert and holds to the Drowned God. But if Vic believed that this woman he wants is part divine, then I'am pretty sure his perception and power relation to her changes because she ain't an ordinary woman at that point. How could a man of faith like himself not see the providence and hand of water and fire that he should bring his fleet to Azzor Hai herself? It is supposition but I feel its fairly plausable.I mean come on, Dany likes hard men, epsecially ones soaked in the blood of her enemies, and who rebelled against the usurper... ;)Now we found something to agree on with that Dany comment haha.But Vic doesn't strike me as a guy that would follow this young girl and believe she was some savior in a fight he does not consider real/serious. But that's just a difference in opinion. I'm excited in seeing what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terilien Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Interestingly, the iron throne practices extreme agnatic primogeniture, since the dance of the dragons. Thus even males from a cadet branch(blackfyres) are supposed to take precedence over women.So Aegon is the rightful heir, even if he is a blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Interestingly, the iron throne practices extreme agnatic primogeniture, since the dance of the dragons. Thus even males from a cadet branch(blackfyres) are supposed to take precedence over women.So Aegon is the rightful heir, even if he is a blackfyre.Are you sure? So far as I'am aware Sansa and Arya were still able to inherit as was Cersei before Kevin or a male Karstark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terilien Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Are you sure? So far as I'am aware Sansa and Arya were still able to inherit as was Cersei before Kevin or a male Karstark.Cersei didn't inherit, she was made regent for tommen. I'm also talking about the throne, not the provinces.Anywho, Go Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I'm also talking about the throne, not the provinces.You're right, there is a difference between normal inheritance laws and the Targaryen dynasty throne inheritence. After the dance of dragons it was decided that no woman should inherit the throne if there was a male alternative, even if that man was behind her in the normal succession. However, it's not clear how far away a man can be to still be considered an alternative and trump a female claimant as that wasn't specified - maybe arbitrarily far of course. Under normal circumstances it would probably be decided by a Great Council (who have overruled the line of succession in the past).Of course, circumstances are not normal. But in any case, I would assume that the Blackfyres have been declared traitors to the realm at one point and would thus most probably have been removed from the line of succession. If not, there is at least one branch of the succession with male heirs that's closer to the succession than Aegon Blackfyre would be. I'm talking bout Stannis 'Peaches' Baratheon of course.But actually even House Martell is ever so slightly closer than House Blackfyre: Its claim derives from a daughter of Aegon IV's, while House Blackfyre's claim derives from a legitimized bastard of the same. Under the traditional sons before daughters before legitimized bastards, Martell would trump Blackfyre, but of course House Blackfyre's whole claim is based on merit trumping slightly better birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 You're right, there is a difference between normal inheritance laws and the Targaryen dynasty throne inheritence. After the dance of dragons it was decided that no woman should inherit the throne if there was a male alternative, even if that man was behind her in the normal succession. However, it's not clear how far away a man can be to still be considered an alternative and trump a female claimant as that wasn't specified - maybe arbitrarily far of course. Under normal circumstances it would probably be decided by a Great Council (who have overruled the line of succession in the past).Of course, circumstances are not normal. But in any case, I would assume that the Blackfyres have been declared traitors to the realm at one point and would thus most probably have been removed from the line of succession. If not, there is at least one branch of the succession with male heirs that's closer to the succession than Aegon Blackfyre would be. I'm talking bout Stannis 'Peaches' Baratheon of course.Oh yeah. Stannis does have the right of it claim wise then.If I was a Lord though and thought with my heart on the Great COuncil. I would find it very hard not to see some kind of divine providence in Dany hatching the Dragons and bringing them to fight the Others. I mean, most people in Westeros aren't that superstitious but thats a hard thing to refute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Oh yeah. Stannis does have the right of it claim wise then.If I was a Lord though and thought with my heart on the Great COuncil. I would find it very hard not to see some kind of divine providence in Dany hatching the Dragons and bringing them to fight the Others. I mean, most people in Westeros aren't that superstitious but thats a hard thing to refute.The Others that only the Wall and Stannis believe in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The Others that only the Wall and Stannis believe in?Winter is Coming ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Winter is Coming ;)Nah man. Winter is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheagar Prime Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Don't get all the aegon/YG hate maybe its because i started the series late and expected him to show up right after my re reads. Why do people have issues with his being angry at tyrion for basically insulting and taunting him. If i remember correctly he loves doing it to young "princes" he did it to joffery (though well deserved) and also to jon who almost set his wolf on him. Its his thing to piss ppl off, but also tell them hard truths while doing so it benefited jon and although it seems like he is setting up aegon, it will also benefit him in the end.They also seem to think that him being hot headed and eager are a bad attribute the kid is 17 that is what all boys are like at that age jon and robb were, but they grew when they got responsibility and purpose so will he. Experience always comes in and it soon will for him. I honestly don't mind him coming in it adds more interest to dany's story for me, which had become quite boring imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I have a theory that seems to work out. While at Harrenhal Ashara Dayne was dishonored by a "man", according to Barristan. Why wouldn't Barristan think to himself the man's name? Simple explanation is that he was the king, King Aerys dishonred Ashara. Meanwhile Elia also becomes pregnant around the same time. She is not at Harrenhal, but delivers supposedly before Lyanna is "abducted". Barristan recalls that Ashara had a stillborn daughter. What I theorize is that Elia had a stillborn daughter, and the two girls who are close conspire to switch babies, Elia claiming Ashara's healthy boy child to give him a much brighter future as a non-bastard. So, if this is the case Aegon is a bastard born of Aerys and does not precede Jon or Daenerys in inheritance. Suppose that Lemore is really Ashara, which seems to be supported, as well. We know that she is a good swimmer explaining how she escaped from the plunge into the sea. Was that to obscure the fact that Varys had contacted her about being a Septa for Aegon, her own son? She wouldn't reveal it to Varys, but may reveal it to Daenerys. Thus we have a fake dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I have a theory that seems to work out. While at Harrenhal Ashara Dayne was dishonored by a "man", according to Barristan. Why wouldn't Barristan think to himself the man's name? Simple explanation is that he was the king, King Aerys dishonred Ashara. Meanwhile Elia also becomes pregnant around the same time. She is not at Harrenhal, but delivers supposedly before Lyanna is "abducted". Barristan recalls that Ashara had a stillborn daughter. What I theorize is that Elia had a stillborn daughter, and the two girls who are close conspire to switch babies, Elia claiming Ashara's healthy boy child to give him a much brighter future as a non-bastard.So, if this is the case Aegon is a bastard born of Aerys and does not precede Jon or Daenerys in inheritance. Suppose that Lemore is really Ashara, which seems to be supported, as well. We know that she is a good swimmer explaining how she escaped from the plunge into the sea. Was that to obscure the fact that Varys had contacted her about being a Septa for Aegon, her own son? She wouldn't reveal it to Varys, but may reveal it to Daenerys. Thus we have a fake dragon.Yeah, could be. I think I had a similar theory at one stage, except with Rhaegar as the father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I have a theory that seems to work out. While at Harrenhal Ashara Dayne was dishonored by a "man", according to Barristan. Why wouldn't Barristan think to himself the man's name? Simple explanation is that he was the king, King Aerys dishonred Ashara. Meanwhile Elia also becomes pregnant around the same time. She is not at Harrenhal, but delivers supposedly before Lyanna is "abducted". Barristan recalls that Ashara had a stillborn daughter. What I theorize is that Elia had a stillborn daughter, and the two girls who are close conspire to switch babies, Elia claiming Ashara's healthy boy child to give him a much brighter future as a non-bastard.So, if this is the case Aegon is a bastard born of Aerys and does not precede Jon or Daenerys in inheritance. Suppose that Lemore is really Ashara, which seems to be supported, as well. We know that she is a good swimmer explaining how she escaped from the plunge into the sea. Was that to obscure the fact that Varys had contacted her about being a Septa for Aegon, her own son? She wouldn't reveal it to Varys, but may reveal it to Daenerys. Thus we have a fake dragon.He says "Stark." Could be Brandon, or Ned. More likely it was Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 He says "Stark." Could be Brandon, or Ned. More likely it was Brandon.Barristan says Ashara 'looked to' Stark, but he did not say who it was that 'dishonored' her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Barristan says Ashara 'looked to' Stark, but he did not say who it was that 'dishonored' her.Just double checked. He does say that, but given the passage, it is strongly implied that the Stark he is speaking of dishonored her. But there is a bit of ambiguity that allows for your theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Just double checked. He does say that, but given the passage, it is strongly implied that the Stark he is speaking of dishonored her. But there is a bit of ambiguity that allows for your theory.GRRM is very tricksy. He is good at making us think that he has said something when he has not (another example is Ned's conversation with Robert about Wylla). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 GRRM is very tricksy. He is good at making us think that he has said something when he has not (another example is Ned's conversation with Robert about Wylla).Yes, but in this case I used the wiki to help where my memory was weak and it is full of assumptions and incorrect info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 GRRM is very tricksy. He is good at making us think that he has said something when he has not (another example is Ned's conversation with Robert about Wylla).What? That was entirely transparent to the reader. Only Robert was drunk enough to not see through it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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