Young Griff: Revealing the depths of the plotline or afterthought?

[Capon Breath]

Hi,

I'm nearing the end of my first re-read of the series. So much more makes sense second time round and im picking up on so many things (with the notable help of this board!). However 1 thing that remains the same from first time round is the sense of dissatisfaction I have about the YG = Aegon storyline.

It seems sacriligeous to suggest that GRRM would put in a major character so late in the series as an afterthought but thats just the sense that I get. I really dont pick up on any hints or build up ahead of time, nothing in any character stroyline or prophecies and then suddenly in book 5 of 7 this....

What are other peoples thoughts? Am I just missing out on the plot complexity?

[sumpthy]

Well in terms of prophecy, you've got Dany being warned about a mummer's dragon.

[Rinso]

Well... there was that vision in the House of the Undying back in ACOK about a mummer's dragon. I didn't make much of it until "Aegon" showed up, but now it's obvious that GRRM wanted to include a fake Targaryen pretender in the overall story. But outside of that, there were hardly any hints and no build-up whatsoever. The Golden Company and Jon Connigton were mentioned in passing here and there, but nothing that would have attracted anyone's attention.

I felt similairly when I read ADWD too. It felt like a contrived attempt to prolong the civil war for at least one more book. It would be forced to say that the whole plot was an afterthought, but it does feel kind of anticlimactic. We don't have any emotional investment in "Aegon", Connington or the Golden Company; their quest means nothing to us after we've known the other characters and combatants in the war for four books now.

[total1402]

Yeah I feel much the same.

[Eejit]

He's likely going to be an additional (primary?) opponent for Dany to face when she reaches Westeros. She will believe him to be an imposter, whether or not he is. Aegon is not going to become some new Hero Protagonist.

[Ser Giant]

With the books only being POVs it's understandable that a random character or two will "pop out of nowhere." That's probably me just be pragmatic because I don't really care too much about the Targs of the story, save BR.

I just hope he's a Blackfyre, and that the Blackfyre Rebellion finally succeeds.

[Lord Varys]

Aegon is necessary not only to prolong the civil war, but to create a powerful opponent/challenge/competitor/beloved husband for Dany when she finally returns. The way the Lannisters regime stood at the end of AFfC there was no chance that there would be coordinated opposition against Dany's return, but if Aegon ascends the Iron Throne while she is not yet there, the story will become much more interesting because the new tension will not between fake pretenders and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, but within the Targaryen dynasty itself.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I am sure GRRM had a plan to introduce Aegon from the beginning, or at least since he scrapped the trilogy idea. The fact that baby Aegon was smashed against a wall and unrecognizable is a big clue. When I first heard that story, (is it in GoT?) I immediately thought that it could have been a fake. Why wouldn't they smuggle out the crown prince? It had bothered me. Of course this thought was forgotten over four books of different plots and learning YG was Aegon blindsided me.

Illyrio and Vary's plan makes alot more sense when you know they have Aegon in their back pocket. Wanting to return Viserys to power is just silly. Illyrio knows Viserys is an idiot, that is plain to see. How could he ever let the rightful king go follow the Dothraki when he clearly wasn't going to do well with them? Because he was never the rightful king. Sending Daenerys to Dothraki gives them an army and puts Viserys in his place (if he hadn't died he still would have been belittled and never respected by the Dothraki).

And in the House of unDying theres the dragon banners, and also the scene of Aegon with his parents, it implies that Aegon will be relevant.

Also with Ashara And Jon C suiciding and being exiled GRRM had a plan for them.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

New characters popping up at this point in the series seems almost inevitable for several reasons: The ASOIAF world is incredibly rich and if all at least somewhat relevant characters had been introduced at once, the beginning of the series would be incredibly bogged down - obviously we don't need to keep up the speed of character introduction seen in the first two books, but there was obviously still just some way to go. And over the course of the series, characters, including major ones, keep getting killed off which is of course fine and proper and traditional if you're close to the end -- but we're still in the very middle of the story: For comparison, assuming that the last two books will not be shorter than Feast, we still have more words in front of us than all of Shakespeares dramas, histories and comedies combined.

So an infusion of new blood can be very helpful, or your protagonists end up just playing musical chairs for 3k pages.

Oh, and:

I just hope he's a Blackfyre, and that the Blackfyre Rebellion finally succeeds.

That would be awesome :drool:

[The Lost Lord]

It was clearly planned long ago because when the series was a trilogy, the second book was to be called A Dance with Dragons. According to comments Martin made years ago, some event called "the second Dance of the Dragons" would be the subject of this book. This must refer to an Aegon-Dany conflict. Now after the restructuring of the series the actual conflict did not appear in the book actually called ADWD, it was merely set up -- but it has clearly been planned for some time.

The larger purpose is to subvert what we thought was Dany's purpose in the series, as is being discussed in this thread. Dany seemed to be the rightful heir, glorious conquering hero, savior of Westeros -- but what if she's not? And as Lord Varys says, it only makes things more interesting and complex if when Dany finally gets over there, it's not the usurper Lannisters sitting on the throne but her own alleged nephew.

[total1402]

The larger purpose is to subvert what we thought was Dany's purpose in the series, as is being discussed in this thread. Dany seemed to be the rightful heir, glorious conquering hero, savior of Westeros -- but what if she's not?

Well, then I'll be rooting for the villain; obviously. :) I mean, really you're going to sympathise more with the POV character you've been with for several books come what may.

i already knew a lot of people were going to die with her return and she has kinda let her own brother be killed. plus, these things have a way of sorting themselves out in the end and everyone having a nice happy resolution. Except the Young Griff. I believe good Victarion Greyjoy will do as the mountain intended to his face and stain that emo head of his across a wall :bang: Like so. ;)

[lojzelote]

Isn't there SSM about how GRRM answered the question if Aegon is truly dead "Keep reading," but confirmed that Rhaenys is 100% dead? I've never tried to find it, but I' ve read about it on this board. The theories about Aegon - real or fake - appeared several years before ADwD, so signs were there. What I see as more troublesome is the fact that I should care for him, and I just don't, no matter if he's fake or not.

[total1402]

I don't think we're meant to like him. When Tyrion interacts with him he comes across as arrogant, vain, self centered, has a temper-tantrum whilst playing a game of chess and freezes when he sees an undead man. Hes also cocky and over-eager to get into a fight. I don't think that makes him a man to like, just the very fact that Tyrion holds him in low esteem is indicitive that you're not meant to like the man. Varys descriptiuon of him as a man of the people who will love and be loved by the small-folk doesn't seem to fit the bill. Hes reminds me of Ser Loras but nowhere near as good a fighter and brave.

[lojzelote]

I don't think we're meant to like him. When Tyrion interacts with him he comes across as arrogant, vain, self centered, has a temper-tantrum whilst playing a game of chess and freezes when he sees an undead man. Hes also cocky and over-eager to get into a fight. I don't think that makes him a man to like, just the very fact that Tyrion holds him in low esteem is indicitive that you're not meant to like the man. Varys descriptiuon of him as a man of the people who will love and be loved by the small-folk doesn't seem to fit the bill. Hes reminds me of Ser Loras but nowhere near as good a fighter and brave.

That's what I think of him. I don't care who gets the throne as long as it isn't him. But I don't worry much, because exactly the reason that he will have it so easy makes me think he will die before the end of story.

[Septon Meribald]

He seems deliberate. Obviously Martin has worked him into the details that have existed from the very beginning either way. But for me the big clue that he was always meant to be there is the Golden Company. We've heard for 3 books about the Golden Company and the breaking of their contract, an unprecedented act for them. We also knew that they were originally founded by Blackfyre supporters and vowed to one day return to Westeros. All of this points to something very eventful. I think anything short of them planning on returning with a candidate for the Iron Throne would have fallen short of expectations.

[Fire and Blood!]

I don't think we're meant to like him. When Tyrion interacts with him he comes across as arrogant, vain, self centered, has a temper-tantrum whilst playing a game of chess and freezes when he sees an undead man. Hes also cocky and over-eager to get into a fight. I don't think that makes him a man to like, just the very fact that Tyrion holds him in low esteem is indicitive that you're not meant to like the man. Varys descriptiuon of him as a man of the people who will love and be loved by the small-folk doesn't seem to fit the bill. Hes reminds me of Ser Loras but nowhere near as good a fighter and brave.

I already like him and believe that he is much more than what you perceive him to be, though less than what Varys makes him to be.

[Istari]

I already like him and believe that he is much more than what you perceive him to be, though less than what Varys makes him to be.

I agree!

[total1402]

Tyrions a good judge of character and sends Aegon off to die with reverse psychology. The fact that he falls for this trick is stunningly indicitive of how dumb he is. At least Victarion (the goon) has some things going for him. :)

[Rinso]

Tyrion is a good judge of character but I never had the impression that he sent "Aegon" off to die. On the contrary, he gave him an advice he genuinely thought was a good idea. And he had the full intention of staying with them and helping "Aegon". Long after Jorah took him captive he kept hoping that Duck and Haldon would come and rescue him. It was only after he saw that this wasn't going to happen when he resolved to cast his die elsewhere.

[Septon Meribald]

Tyrion is a good judge of character but I never had the impression that he sent "Aegon" off to die. On the contrary, he gave him an advice he genuinely thought was a good idea. And he had the full intention of staying with them and helping "Aegon". Long after Jorah took him captive he kept hoping that Duck and Haldon would come and rescue him. It was only after he saw that this wasn't going to happen when he resolved to cast his die elsewhere.

Agreed. I am in need of a reread but I think Tyrion was dead on about Aegon's prospects with Dany. He would seem like a beggar trying to be king and would be doubted as to his identity. Tyrion could not have known of the Dornish plans and might have been convinced they had accepted the Lannisters in control based on his interactions with them so he was right to say that Dany would need a beachhead to arrive with her army.