From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IV

[ElizaMartell]

I am addressing the claim that Sansa wasn't traumatised by the marriage. If she is worried that people aren't using her for her claim how does it make any sense to say the experience with Tyrion did not make an impact with her and relationships? Does Sansa's experiences only exist in a vaccuum?

[Kittykatknits]

IMO, because marriage renders her a victim. She was a pawn during the marriage to Tyrion, solely for her claim, and she's come to believe that that's all the Tyrells wanted from her too. She wants to be appreciated for herself, not Winterfell.

Yep. It's not about Tyrion specifically but marriage in general. She's been passed around like a piece of meat for dogs to fight over and she is tired of it. Also, I would add her aunt also planned to marry her to her cousin for awhile too.

[ElizaMartell]

If its not about Tyrion specifically how can it be about marriage in general? Doesn't her marriage to Tyrion influence her understanding to marriage as a whole? That doesn't make any sense.

[Lyanna Stark]

Wait so if Sansa has no tramatising experiences from being married with Tyrion, why does she freeze up in fear at the prospect of being married again?

She has no traumatising experience from being forced to face Tyrion on her wedding night. She doesn't think back to it with nightmares, in the text. However, we do know that she does this with the riot, Lysa trying to toss her out the Moon Door and Joffrey's dying in front of her. Hence we can deduce that the traumatising experiences for Sansa were these three.

Regarding "traumatising" with regards to marriage, I wouldn't call it that exactly since I think it's the wrong word, but she has been subjected to five different arranged marriages of which she wanted none, hence why her view on arranged marriages right now is one of revulsion. She simply does not want to me married off to someone again. She expresses this clearly at the end of AFFC, that she does not wish to be married off again, perhaps even never again. It's clearly have a strong negative impact on her to be bartered around like a piece of meat because of her claim.

If its not about Tyrion specifically how can it be about marriage in general? Doesn't her marriage to Tyrion influence her understanding to marriage as a whole? That doesn't make any sense.

I don't think anyone has claimed that it doesn't. But there are two different things at play here: firstly, her encounter with Tyrion wrt what marriage entails on a physical level, and despite it being creepy, embarrassing and uncomfortable for both parties, Sansa seems to have got over it relatively well since the thinks about it but doesn't show any deeper emotional scars. She even ponders that had it been another partner and in another setting, she might even have enjoyed it. Doesn't sound like someone who is traumatised to me.

However as I pointed out, what she looses out on in these alliances is her own say, as she has no agency. From what we can glean regarding her feelings about bedding and that she might have enjoyed it had things been different, is that she is not necessarily against marriage as such, she just doesn't want it to be arranged against her will, and she wants to have friends and family around her.

In short: Sansa seems to want to make up her own mind and not have a partner shoved onto her. And have a friendlier setting, too, of course.

[ElizaMartell]

Lysa attempted to downsize her as Sansa was offered to sweetrobin as a Bastard bride. Its hard to claim she was 'engaged' to him for a claim. And just because she doesn't have nightmares about it doesn't mean she doesn't have negative experiences from it. Was the engagement with Willlas the one where she learned to fear her husbands closeness? Was the one with Little Robert the one where she was at the absolute whim of her husbands family?

[brashcandy]

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and the sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim.

The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love.

[Valkyrja]

This reflects my thoughts very well. I'd like your post but I'm always out of those by 10 in the morning. I'd also add that I never really understand the marriage symbolism of the cloak personally. I do think there is symbolism in how she reacts to the cloaks that the three men give her. I also think there is some symbolism for both of them when it comes to the cloak he left her, just not sure I buy the marriage aspect of it.

Thanks, and I'm the same.....especially with this thread, I'm always running out of likes. :)

As for the various cloaks.....I think all three are symbolic as you say. I suppose I lean towards Sandor's cloak because it is something that she chooses to put on herself. Sansa so rarely gets to choose things for herself, it just strikes me as rather poignant.

I agree, though, that it does not necessarily mean marriage....not just for Sansa and Sandor, but for the other two whose cloaks she receives. I certainly hope she won't have to remain connected to Tyrion and LF :ack: in that way! I know that some have been arguing that Sansa may not get the opportunity to choose to opt out of yet another marriage contract, but I just can't help but hope that she finds a way. I'd rather her not marry at all rather than have to marry someone again that she doesn't want. My feeling is that, whatever (possible) future scenario comes into being with (or without) Sandor, I just hope that it is *her choice*.

I also fully admit that there are a wide variety of other scenarios that are possible for Sansa's storyline....so many, in fact, that come to mind that it is overwhelming at times. Hence, why I try not to set my heart too much on one particular scenario or outcome, appealing as it may be.

[ElizaMartell]

How do those quotes change the argument that her marriage to Tyrion had a negative impact? Try again, and try not to nitpick my points.

[brashcandy]

Lysa attempted to downsize her as Sansa was offered to sweetrobin as a Bastard bride. Its hard to claim she was 'engaged' to him for a claim. And just because she doesn't have nightmares about it doesn't mean she doesn't have negative experiences from it. Was the engagement with Willlas the one where she learned to fear her husbands closeness? Was the one with Little Robert the one where she was at the absolute whim of her husbands family?

Sansa was not offered to SW as a bastard bride. Secondly, yes, Sansa was correct in her assumption that Lysa only wanted her for her claim. And no one said that she didn't suffer in the marriage to Tyrion, but she was not traumatised by it. As Lyanna noted that word might be misleading for this situation. She didn't suffer with Willas (but does with SW later) but this is besides the point. The fact is that she fears marriage because she views it as a means to exploit her for her claim.

[ElizaMartell]

If she wasnt offered to SW as a bastard bride, how do you oh so wisely propose Lysa was going to claim Winterfell when Sansa was wanted for regicide and all the Starks barring Arya where thought to be dead? If it wasn't her expperience with Tyrion and the Tyrells why would she assume Lysa was going to use her for her claim? And how can you play semantics by saying her experience with Tyrion was negative but wasn't tramatic?

[Lyanna Stark]

Lysa attempted to downsize her as Sansa was offered to sweetrobin as a Bastard bride. Its hard to claim she was 'engaged' to him for a claim. And just because she doesn't have nightmares about it doesn't mean she doesn't have negative experiences from it. Was the engagement with Willlas the one where she learned to fear her husbands closeness? Was the one with Little Robert the one where she was at the absolute whim of her husbands family?

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove or disprove?

She was not offered to Sweetrobin as a bastard bride, Lysa even says the Starks were always proud but that Sansa is a beggar now, so Lysa was definitely planning on having Sansa Stark marry Sweetrobin and she was delighted that Sansa was still a virgin as she didn't want any of the dwarf's leavings. So yes she was most definitely paired off with Sweetrobin for her claim and rank. Sansa's children by Sweetrobin would then stand to inherit first the Vale and then the North.

She may have negative experiences from something, but from what we can learn in the text, these experiences have less of an impact on Sansa. Which is the material point. We can make up things all day long, but what's in the text is what we can be sure of. And from the text, there are three instances where Sansa seems clearly upset, afraid and which had strong negative impacts on her: the riot, being almost tossed out the Moon Door and Joffrey's death.

I'm not sure what you mean with "fear her husband's closeness" since Sansa is clearly aware enough to realise that being put off by Tyrion doesn't mean she'll be automatically put off by any other man, as evidenced by her thinking of handsome Loras for instance, or match making for Mya, or thinking that had the circumstances been different she would have enjoyed her wedding. There is nothing in the text to support that Tyrion has put Sansa off marrying forever. As strange as that may look, and I can personally feel that I would probably have been a bit more doubtful, but Sansa is rather happily bouncing back, perhaps because she is quite a strong, compassionate and after all rather optimistic person, while I am more a cynical old hag.

The thing that makes her seem put off by marriage is not Tyrion in particular, but that she keeps getting into arranged matches as a pawn.

[ElizaMartell]

So the experience with Tyrion whch taught her that she would be used for her claim and that people wouldn't trully love her and will abuse her if necessary wasn't tramatic? Right.

[Lyanna Stark]

If she wasnt offered to SW as a bastard bride, how do you oh so wisely propose Lysa was going to claim Winterfell when Sansa was wanted for regicide and all the Starks barring Arya where thought to be dead?

Lysa clearly meant to hide Sansa until it was a good time to come out. Lysa herself names Sansa a Stark. To claim Lysa wanted Sansa as a bastard bride has no evidence in the text. This is simply made up stuff.

If it wasn't her expperience with Tyrion and the Tyrells why would she assume Lysa was going to use her for her claim? And how can you play semantics by saying her experience with Tyrion was negative but wasn't tramatic?

We know Lysa was going to use her for her claim. There is no other reason she'd want Sweetrobin to marry Sansa since Sansa as you stated is accused of regicide. She would only be problematic and another bride a simpler option for Sweetrobin, yet a claim to the North for Sansa's and Robin's children would be temptation enough.

The reason why we can be relatively sure Sansa wasn't traumatised by being married to Tyrion is because nowhere is it mentioned in the text that she has nightmares about being married to Tyrion, nor does she think on it in that way, since in fact she considers mentioning to Lysa that he was kind, and then thinks she could have liked a marriage had it been to a different person and with different people involved. These are textual evidence.

So the experience with Tyrion whch taught her that she would be used for her claim and that people wouldn't trully love her and will abuse her if necessary wasn't tramatic? Right.

No. Her combined experiences with all the five marriage alliances made. Which is why she reacts negatively to LF presenting the fifth. She does not want to be bartered anymore. I cannot see how the difference is hard to comprehend? Joffrey, Tyrion, Willas, Sweetrobin, Harry the Heir. It doesn't matter which of these men you look at, none of them were interested in Sansa_the_person. Hence, only after her claim. In that regard, there is no difference.

EDIT: To clarify: the problem with her five marriages is that she has no agency and no autonomy. This has more far reaching consequences for Sansa than whatever she felt wrt Tyrion on their wedding night. This is the main problem she has to face in her life, and which she needs to solve.

This doesn't mean that overall her impression of the forced marriage to Tyrion isn't mostly negative (anything else would be surprising) but it's a big step from "negative" to "traumatising" and Sansa seems to field it within the former category, at least for the present.

[brashcandy]

The reason why we can be relatively sure Sansa wasn't traumatised by being married to Tyrion is because nowhere is it mentioned in the text that she has nightmares about being married to Tyrion, nor does she think on it in that way, since in fact she considers mentioning to Lysa that he was kind, and then thinks she could have liked a marriage had it been to a different person and with different people involved. These are textual evidence.

Didn't she even say that staying married to Tyrion would be preferable to SW in AFFC?

Anyways, here's what Lysa tells Sansa:

I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us word from KL once the Imp's head rolls.

[Lyanna Stark]

Didn't she even say that staying married to Tyrion would be preferable to SW in AFFC?

She thinks that at least Joffrey was sound of body (and pointedly leaves out his mind, hah).

[Grail King]

Ok, so with all the symbolism for Sansa and Dragonflies I did a search and it's long and repeats it's self on points, but I will let you all edit it for yourselves.

The Meaning of a Dragonfly: What Does a Dragonfly Symbolize?

The dragonfly has been a subject of intrigue in every single continent it is found in, and with each civilization, has developed a unique meaning to it, its behaviour and its lifestyle.

The word Dragonfly and the family it belongs to, Odonata, have evolved from the many myths associated with Dragonflies and their taxonomic cousins, the Damselflies. The word Dragonfly has its source in the myth that Dragonflies were once Dragons.

The family name Odonata comes from the Greek word for tooth as Odonates were believed to have teeth, it is a verified fact now that while they don’t have ‘teeth’ per say, they have strong mandibles that they use to crush their prey.

Symbolism’s of the Dragonfly

Maturity and a Depth of character

The dragonfly, in almost every part of the world symbolizes change and change in the perspective of self realization; and the kind of change that has its source in mental and emotional maturity and the understanding of the deeper meaning of life.

The traditional association of Dragonflies with water also gives rise to this meaning to this amazing insect. The Dragonfly’s scurrying flight across water represents an act of going beyond what’s on the surface and looking into the deeper implications and aspects of life.

Power and Poise

The dragonfly’s agile flight and its ability to move in all six directions exude a sense of power and poise - something that comes only with age and maturity.

Defeat of Self Created Illusions

The dragonfly exhibits iridescence both on its wings as well as on its body. Iridescence is the property of an object to show itself in different colors depending on the angle and polarization of light falling on it.

This property is seen and believed as the end of one’s self created illusions and a clear vision into the realities of life. The magical property of iridescence is also associated with the discovery of one’s own abilities by unmasking the real self and removing the doubts one casts on his/her own sense of identity. This again indirectly means self discovery and removal of inhibitions.

Focus on living ‘IN’ the moment

The dragonfly normally lives most of its life as a nymph or an immature. It flies only for a fraction of its life and usually not more than a few months. This adult dragonfly does it all in these few months and leaves nothing to be desired. This style of life symbolizes and exemplifies the virtue of living IN the moment and living life to the fullest. By living in the moment you are aware of who you are, where you are, what you are doing, what you want, what you don’t and make informed choices on a moment-to-moment basis.

This ability lets you live your life without regrets like the great dragonfly.

The opening of one’s eyes

The eyes of the dragonfly are one of the most amazing and awe inspiring sights. Given almost 80% of the insect’s brain power is dedicated to its sight and the fact that it can see in all 360 degrees around it, it symbolizes the uninhibited vision of the mind and the ability to see beyond the limitations of the human self. It also in a manner of speaking symbolizes a man/woman’s rising from materialism to be able to see beyond the mundane into the vastness that is really our Universe, and our own minds.

The Tall Tales and the short stories

What can one say, for a harmless insect that does not bite, does not sew snakes’ wounds, and definitely does not measure human souls for good and evil, there have been a wide variety of myths and mythology associated with the life and the existence of the dragonfly.

But before we go down to the lore by location, one very striking aspect comes to mind. Change. In many regions and as a norm of this day, the dragonfly is considered to be an agent of change and presumably symbolic of a sense of self realization. Self realization from how the dragonfly uses its power to control its movements and so elegantly. And change and evolution is all about the dragonfly’s ability to fly and the way it can be comfortable on water, land as well as the air.

Asia and America

Let’s start with something nice. To the Japanese, it symbolizes summer and autumn and am admired and respected all over, so much so that the Samurai use it as a symbol of power, agility and best of all, Victory.

In China, people associate the dragonfly with prosperity, harmony and as a good luck charm.

Amongst Native Americans, it is a sign of happiness, speed and purity. Purity because the dragonfly eats from the wind itself

Europe and subsequently Australia

Beginning from calling the dragonfly, the witches’ animal, and that Satan sent it on earth to cause chaos and confusion, to calling it, Ear Cutter, Devil’s Needle, Adderbolt and worst of all, Horse Stinger, which soon spread Down Under, when the British colonized Australia. The name Horse Stinger comes from the misinformed observation that horses that were kicking and stamping around usually had a few dragonflies hovering around them. Fact remains though, that the dragonflies could well have been helping the horse by eating some of the parasitic insects that were doing the actual ‘horse stinging’.

Well, the Welsh call the dragonfly the snake’s servant and think they follow snakes and stitch up their wounds…and continuing with the misnomers, they are called eye pokers and eye snatchers in Portugal.

In Sweden, folklore suggests that we dragonflies come around to check for bad souls - to weigh souls to be more ‘accurate’ and elsewhere, believed to sneak up to children who tell lies and also adults who curse and scold, to stitch up their eyes, mouth, and ears respectively.

=================================================================================================

Symbolic Meanings of the Dragonfly

As a creature of the wind, the dragonlfy totem represents change. It's iridescent wings are incredibly sensitive to the slightest breeze, and so we are reminded to heed where the proverbial wind blows - lest we run into stormy weather.

Dragonflies are also creatures of the water, and any creature whose habitat is in, or around water carries symbolism relative the the subconscious, or "dreaming" mind and thoughts.

This is because in the animal world, water is symbolic of the subconscious mind ("deeper mind," "dreaming mind") and relates to the thoughts we have in relaxed/meditative/sleeping/subconscious states.

Quick-list animal symbolism of the dragonfly:

prosperity

good luck

strength

peace

harmony

purity

These symbolic meanings of dragonfly are particularly associated in Asian (Japan) and Native American (Plains region) circles.

Dragonflies carry messages that deal with deeper thought - and they ask that we pay attention to our deeper thoughts and desires.

Further symbolic insect meaning of dragonfly comes into play when we observe the dragonfly's mode of transportation as it skitters across the top of water surfaces. This implies that our deeper thoughts are surfacing and we must be mindful of the outcome we wish to have.

The dragonfly is a reminder that when our deeper thoughts rise to the surface we must pay attention - there are lessons to be learned, and we are also reminded that what we think is directly proportionate to what we "see on the surface." ...In short, our thoughts (even the deeper ones that we might not be as in-touch with as we are with our conscious thoughts) are responsible for what we see in our lives - in our physical surroundings.

The dragonfly gives us a very powerful meditation tool. Close your eyes, and focus on a thought - let it rise to the surface of your mind's ocean - see that thought float lightly up to the water's surface. Now upon the top of a smooth, calm glass-like surface - visualize that thought moving across that water - sliding across - smooth and fast.

This exercise is useful when we want to visualize positive outcomes in a situation. We see the thought of hope happily moving across an ocean of peace (peaceful mind) and skitting to a perfect outcome.

Lastly it should be noted that the Dragonfly lives a short life, and it knows it must live to the fullest with what it has.

===============================================================================

The symbolism of dragonflies is freedom.

The old word for 'dragonfly' was kachimushi, 'kachi' meaning 'victory' and 'mushi' insect. For this reason the samurai adopted the motif as an auspicious one, representing victory

The dragonfly represents illusion.

live life to the fullest and stop wasting time

============================================================================================

The meaning of a dragonfly changes with each culture. The main symbolisms of the dragonfly are renewal, positive force and the power of life in general. Dragonflies can also be a symbol of the sense of self that comes with maturity. Also, as a creature of the wind, the dragonfly frequently represents change. And as a dragonfly lives a short life, it knows it must live its life to the fullest with the short time it has - which is a lesson for all of us.

==================================================================================================

Dragonflies are old and adaptive insects, and are most powerful in the summer under the effects of warmth and sunlight. They are fantastic flyers, darting like light, twisting, turning, changing direction, even going backwards as the need arises. They are inhabitants of two realms - starting with water, and moving to the air with maturity, but staying close to water.

Their colors are a result of reflecting and refracting the power of light. As a result, they are associated with color magic, illusion in causing others only to see what you wish, and other mysticism.

Dragonflies are often represented in Japanese paintings, representing new light and joy. To some Native Americans they are the souls of the dead. Faerie stories say that they used to be real dragons.

As a creature of the wind, the dragonlfy totem represents change. It's iridescent wings are incredibly sensitive to the slightest breeze.

Dragonflies are also creatures of the water, and any creature whose habitat is in, or around water carries symbolism relative the the subconscious, or "dreaming" mind and thoughts.

This is because in the animal world, water is symbolic of the subconscious mind ("deeper mind," "dreaming mind") and relates to the thoughts we have in relaxed/meditative/sleeping/ subconscious states.

Dragonflies carry messages that deal with deeper thought - and they ask that we pay attention to our deeper thoughts and desires.

====================================================================================================

In the Dakota/Lakota mythology, the dragonfly is equated with the mirage or illusion, because their wings beat so rapidly that the human eye cannot see it. In the Lakota tribe, this insect and concept of illusion was often invoked when they wanted to confused their enemies. Dragonfly represented the god or spirit of “Whirlwind.”

On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, in Ireland and parts of Europe, dragonflies were associated with fairies. Some fables and fairytales, if you will, told that if you followed a dragonfly, it would lead you to fairies. Others said that they were the steeds of fairies. This leads to an association with magic. Dragonflies are so full of spiritual energy and a sort of magic, that they represent the ability to travel between dimensions.

Dragonflies are depicted often in Japanese paintings as representations of new joy and light. And, like the Lakota tribe’s mythology, dragonflies can teach illusion. They tell us that things are not always as they seem, and that life itself is not always what it appears to be.

OK, real long sorry

[Raksha the Demon]

i can't say for sure if this will result in a negative impact on her view of romance and sex in general, but i do find her changing events in her thoughts as an indication that she was more traumatized than was originally thought.

to go from this:

He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. “Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. “I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.”

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind.

Please don’t kill me

, she wanted to scream,

please don’t.

She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray, stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women,

help our daughters through this fray,

soothe the wrath and tame the fury, teach us all a kinder way

.

She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking.

to these thoughts:

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky.

He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

and finally:

You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?”

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.

to have such an extreme change of thought/memory in only a few months time is not a normal progression in my mind. she is dripping with fear in the real scene and even though she gives him a compassionate gesture of touching his cheek, it just doesn't flow logically to go from that to remembering a cruel kiss that she thinks of when she thinks of sex and the marriage bed.

i don't think it is stunted (too soon to say) but we cannot deny that she has twisted reality. it isn't that i find the hound hard to romanticize (i'm not really going there) but i find it troubling that sansa seems to have whitewashed sandor's threats and his holding her at knifepoint. he was clearly out of control in that scene and it has now become connected with the marriage bed. yes, she manages to diffuse it with her song but i cannot pretend it hasn't happened the way sansa has.

as for her preconceived notions of what a suitor should be, i can tell what he should not be: someone that uses weapons, anger and fear to get a desired response from you. all and all, i really don't think sandor means to harm her but i do believe he wasn't always able to manage his actions. i also think that the quiet isle may help with that but i really don't know how sandor will be in the next book(s).

I do think Sansa may indeed face some 'issues' when she does begin a sexual relationship, which hopefully won't be for a few more years. Nothing about her romantic/sexual maturation has been 'normal' since the day Joffrey attacked Sansa's younger sister, even if Sansa was able to delude herself about her perfect prince's behavior at that point. Her fiance, who was, in modern terms, her first 'crush', promised to be merciful to her father and then executed him in front of Sansa. Followed of course, by forcing Sansa to look at her father's severed head (and those of his men and her septa) with the threat of what happens to traitors, and battery when Sansa verbally defied him. At 12, or at least late in her 11th year, Sansa became a victim of abuse by a boy who she had dreamed of marrying, a boy she had thought she loved. Then she is nearly seized and raped by rioting men, and saved by the Hound. The Hound has given her good advice, and been honest with her from the start as well as saving her life. Yet on the night of the battle, when Sansa has already been put in genuine fear for her virtue and life (from invading soldiers, from Ilyn Payne at Cersei's orders), the Hound returns and terrifies Sansa even further by putting a knife to her throat and demanding "a song". That she was able to calm him and give them both a rather transcendant moment of empathy and shared humanity is lovely, but it was still a scary experience that Sansa seems to have associated with sex, because Sandor has become the only man, in her memory and to some extent in truth, that she could trust to defend her and be honest with her. It's rather sad that the only man Sansa remembers as being so dependable in her years of captivity and abuse, the man she has quasi-sexual feelings for and dreams about, was also a man who threatened Sansa to the point of terror.

And then there was the wedding and wedding night with Tyrion, which made a travesty of every hope that Sansa had ever cherished about wedding a man she could admire and respect and then participating in a sexual initiation with him. And having to sleep in the same bed, for weeks, with the wedded husband who she knew wanted to have sex with her.

If all that wasn't bad enough, along comes Littlefinger who adopts Sansa as his long-lost fantasy daughter and mentors her as a father mentors a daughter, at the same time pressing and then soliciting un-daughterly kisses from her. Ick.

I do think Sansa's sexual development from a little girl to young woman has been compromised; but not to the point of no return. With the right man (who is not necessarily Sandor Clegane, and definitely not Littlefinger or Tyrion), someone who is patient and perceptive, I think Sansa could have a healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship, if that's what she wants. And I do think she will want it, in time.

[ElizaMartell]

How on earth does a girl coiling at the idea of marriage somehow mean that she's back to her usual self, star-eyed and happy with the notions of romance?

[jarl the climber]

Actually at this point I do think Robert Arryn is in love with Sansa and would not care about her claim to Winterfell

[brashcandy]

Actually at this point I do think Robert Arryn is in love with Sansa and would not care about her claim to Winterfell

Jarl, you're not serious. :) SW is looking for a maternal figure in Sansa and has managed to develop some strange boyish infatuation with her. Even if it's love, he's hardly old enough or in the right frame of mind to consider what her claim would mean and if he doesn't want it.