"Corn" and other American-isms in ASoIaF

[Silmarien]

Didn't GRRM use the term, "Shart" when Strong Belwas let loose his bowels after beating Mereen's champion?

Also, Direwolves were found in north and south America. Some of the folks he describes look native American . . but I think it is good hopefully ASoIAF can become what it already possibly is, an American Mythology.

:lol: I have never heard shart used as a form of shit before in the US. I think GRRM made it up.

[Silver Spearwife]

He said 'shat' surely?

I just checked, yes he did.

Also, Direwolves were found in north and south America. Some of the folks he describes look native American . . but I think it is good hopefully ASoIAF can become what it already possibly is, an American Mythology.

I just checked and yes, you are correct. However, they died out at about the same time that civilization started, so they're not really a part of anyone's culture. Also of note is that dire wolves (the real thing, spelled with two words) are smaller and have a different build than Martin's direwolves. Like, direwolves are enormous, leggy creatures that, according to what resources I could find, are nearly as tall as a small person when full grown. Dire wolves, on the other hand, were very large for wolves but not to the levels of direwolves. I own domesticated dogs the same size as dire wolves were.

In other words, they're different, plus they were from a long time ago.

:lol: I have never heard shart used as a form of shit before in the US. I think GRRM made it up.

It's a slang term for shit-fart. It's ridiculous, but people use it, lol.

[Silmarien]

I just checked, yes he did.

I just checked and yes, you are correct. However, they died out at about the same time that civilization started, so they're not really a part of anyone's culture. Also of note is that dire wolves (the real thing, spelled with two words) are smaller and have a different build than Martin's direwolves. Like, direwolves are enormous, leggy creatures that, according to what resources I could find, are nearly as tall as a small person when full grown. Dire wolves, on the other hand, were very large for wolves but not to the levels of direwolves. I own domesticated dogs the same size as dire wolves were.

In other words, they're different, plus they were from a long time ago.

It's a slang term for shit-fart. It's ridiculous, but people use it, lol.

Ewww.

I thought Direwolves in ASOIAF only grew to be the size of ponies?

[Silver Spearwife]

Ewww.

I thought Direwolves in ASOIAF only grew to be the size of ponies?

*shrug* Like I said, the resources are contradictory at times. You're probably right.

[Alester Florent]

There were viking public meetings known as the 'thing' in dark ages Europe. Never heard they elected kings there but the 'kings moot' might be based on that.

In England for a long time the only way to become king was to be selected by the Witanagemot (or Witans' moot - Witan being the title of those with a stake in society; earls, thegns, clergy, etc.) It tended to follow dynastic lines, but not necessarily agnatic primogeniture. For instance the brother of a king might be elected over the previous kings' sons (who could then be elected in turn later on).

I'm not sure who the last king to be elected by the Witan was. I think it was Henry I, although by that stage its power was basically only symbolic anyway.

In any case, elected rulership was very definitely a thing (DYSWIDT) in medieval Europe, as you say.

the whole migration of the first men over what is now the stepstones is an obvious reference to migration over the Bering strait during the ice age.

It could also refer to the migration of various peoples to Britain prior to the flooding of the land bridge. Or even the migration of humans to Australia via New Guinea.

Didn't GRRM use the term, "Shart" when Strong Belwas let loose his bowels after beating Mereen's champion?

In my edition at least it's "shat", which is the/an accepted past tense of "shit".

[Valkyrja]

I think the Greeks may have invented that one. But the Kings Moot is also an election of sorts, and its not Hellenic in flavor at all. I wonder where GRRM got that idea... it must be based on something historic

Amongst the Anglo-Saxons, a folkmoot (Old English folkmote 'meeting of the people') was a meeting of all the free members of the tribe or district. Tolkien used the word 'moot' to describe the (rare) meeting of the Ents (the Entmoot). Though in this case I think GRRM's kingsmoot is meant as reference to both the Anglo-Saxon moot and the Norse 'Thing', at which laws were read, disputes settled, and chieftains and kings could be elected.

So, no......not an Americanism. :P

[sharkhawk]

Someone upthread mentioned tobacco, although there is no smoking, the innkeeper with the good ale between riverrun and Kings landing had red teeth due to chewing sour leaf. Also Genna's husband chewed it. Maybe they just haven't thought to dry it and smoke it.

[danm_999]

Here's one that's not really an Americanism, but more an Earthism, that I can't find any reason for. When characters like Littlefinger and Cersei discuss the game of thrones, they talk about people as "pawns".

It has the same implication as it does in our society; a low piece that's used and sacrified to advance the game, but that has some chance to become an actual player (by making it's way across the board). But we get the idea from chess, where are the Westerosi getting it from?

There's no chess in Westeros, and the closest game to Chess, Cyvasse, is only a recent introduction to Westeros, and does not have a piece called a pawn.

[Independent George]

I'm not sure how it's translated in other editions, but GRRM delineates distance in 'feet', 'miles', and the more archaic 'leagues' in the American editions.

Of course, it was the Brits who gave us this stupid system in the first place, so it's not technically an Americanism.

[Lord Ben]

Here's one that's not really an Americanism, but more an Earthism, that I can't find any reason for. When characters like Littlefinger and Cersei discuss the game of thrones, they talk about people as "pawns".

It has the same implication as it does in our society; a low piece that's used and sacrified to advance the game, but that has some chance to become an actual player (by making it's way across the board). But we get the idea from chess, where are the Westerosi getting it from?

There's no chess in Westeros, and the closest game to Chess, Cyvasse, is only a recent introduction to Westeros, and does not have a piece called a pawn.

I thought the reason we call them pawns in chess is because the term existed beforehand personally. Chess didn't invent the basic phrase pawn any more than it invented bishop or castle or knight.

Etymology

Though the name origin of most chess pieces is obvious, the pawn's etymology is fairly obscure. Since chess became prevalent in mainstream society, many new uses have derived from the word. "Pawn" is often taken to mean "one who is easily manipulated" or "one who is sacrificed for a larger purpose". The word pawn actually is derived from the Old French word "paon" which comes from the Medieval Latin term for foot soldier, and is etymologically cognate to peon.

Because the pawn is the weakest piece, it is often used metaphorically to indicate unimportance or outright disposability, for example, "He's only a pawn in their game."

In most other languages, the word for pawn is similarly derived from paon or some other word for foot soldier. Exceptions are, for example, the Irish fichillín, which means "little chess". The German "Bauer" means "farmer".

[danm_999]

I thought the reason we call them pawns in chess is because the term existed beforehand personally. Chess didn't invent the basic phrase pawn any more than it invented bishop or castle or knight.

Etymology

Though the name origin of most chess pieces is obvious, the pawn's etymology is fairly obscure. Since chess became prevalent in mainstream society, many new uses have derived from the word. "Pawn" is often taken to mean "one who is easily manipulated" or "one who is sacrificed for a larger purpose". The word pawn actually is derived from the Old French word "paon" which comes from the Medieval Latin term for foot soldier, and is etymologically cognate to peon.

Because the pawn is the weakest piece, it is often used metaphorically to indicate unimportance or outright disposability, for example, "He's only a pawn in their game."

In most other languages, the word for pawn is similarly derived from paon or some other word for foot soldier. Exceptions are, for example, the Irish fichillín, which means "little chess". The German "Bauer" means "farmer".

I know the word predates chess as meaning foot soldier, but there are specific conotations attached to pieces in a game that this original meaning doesn't yield.

Edit: looking at it now, Littlefinger uses the word "piece", so I guess my point is pointless after all.

[sumpthy]

"Mom" rather than "mum".

[The Hempflower Knight]

Could you just see the Night's Watchmen smoking pot? The Others show up at the gate and they're all, "Hey, man, got any Doritos?"

First of all, its Hempflower. Second of all, some strains these days dont really have the classic narcotic effects, and can give energy and clarity believe it or not. Especially those bad-ass sativas from the Summer Islands. Also, you should look up the etymology of the word assasin and rethink this.

[Silmarien]

First of all, its Hempflower. Second of all, some strains these days dont really have the classic narcotic effects, and can give energy and clarity believe it or not. Especially those bad-ass sativas from the Summer Islands. Also, you should look up the etymology of the word assasin and rethink this.

Ah yes, hashishin = assassin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins

[Seasick Drake]

I'm pretty sure he uses "butt" which always seems a bit out of place to me compared to a word like "arse".

[Buried Treasure]

Is this a joke.

Athens anyone? Certainly known of in medieval Europe.

The kingship of Jerusalem was elective, (in theory) in medieval Europe. The college of Cardinals elected the Pope. Cathedral chapters 'elected,' subject to certain restrictions, their bishops. The Holy Roman Emperor too.

Edit: Khal Pono just beat me to it.

This. Plus, the NW system is much more democratric now that the Watch is small enough to be mostly gathered in one place that in would have been for most of it's history. When there were thousands of men spread across 20-odd forts then the majority of voting power would have been in the hands of the 20-odd commanders voting on behalf of their absent garrisons. It would still have been more democratic than most of Westeros and low-born but capable men could still have risen on merit, but it would have allowed the (probably mostly highborn) garrison commanders to pick the LC from within their own club - IMO very like the college of Cardinals.

I'm not sure how it's translated in other editions, but GRRM delineates distance in 'feet', 'miles', and the more archaic 'leagues' in the American editions.

Of course, it was the Brits who gave us this stupid system in the first place, so it's not technically an Americanism.

Imperial measurements are still in common use for non-technical and informal measurements in the UK, so for us Brits there is nothing strange in reading about feet or miles. They're a much more intuitive measurement, I have a sense of when I have walked half a mile or a mile but not if I have walked a km. And I guess we would be complaining about the awful 'frenchisms' if GRRM wrote in metric.

"Mom" rather than "mum".

Yeah, when Sweetrobin asked for his 'mommy' it really knocked me out of the moment. But 'mum' would be just as bad for americans to read. Maybe 'mam' would be better, as that gets regional use in the old world and the new.

[Khal Pono]

I'm pretty sure he uses "butt" which always seems a bit out of place to me compared to a word like "arse".

Good one--I noticed that as well; I don't have my Oxford English Dictionary handy, but I wonder when and where they started using "butt" for "buttocks".

I'm sure etymologically it is just short for buttocks but I agree it does seem out of place.

[Alester Florent]

Imperial measurements work much better in fantasy, in my experience. The metric system is a much more recent and scientifically-based system; it's well-suited to sci-fi, but jars in fantasy worlds.

Also, contrary to what I see on American TV and the like, we Brits aren't all about the metric. We use both systems fairly interchangeably and will probably continue to do so indefinitely now that the EU has given up trying to get us to conform to a European standard. Most people I know will quote their height and weight in imperial, and road distances (and speeds) are still officially measured in mph.

I did get the impression in AGoT, though, that GRRM was confused about what a "league" was, although he seems to have corrected himself later. When rereading AGoT I mentally imagine his "league" as a third of a mile, rather than three miles, and the geography makes more sense.

[Khal Pono]

Imperial measurements work much better in fantasy, in my experience. The metric system is a much more recent and scientifically-based system; it's well-suited to sci-fi, but jars in fantasy worlds.

Also, contrary to what I see on American TV and the like, we Brits aren't all about the metric. We use both systems fairly interchangeably and will probably continue to do so indefinitely now that the EU has given up trying to get us to conform to a European standard. Most people I know will quote their height and weight in imperial, and road distances (and speeds) are still officially measured in mph.

I did get the impression in AGoT, though, that GRRM was confused about what a "league" was, although he seems to have corrected himself later. When rereading AGoT I mentally imagine his "league" as a third of a mile, rather than three miles, and the geography makes more sense.

Good post. You Brits are even more hardcore about Imperial units than we are. Americans are like WTF is a STONE??????

And those parts in the book where GRRM messed up the meaning of league drove me crazy. Dorne is ten thousand LEAGUES From the wall??? So like farther than the entire circumference of the world? That's crazy far.

[gougef]

"Shart" = fart with a surprise