Aegon is Legitimate: It's Obvious, Right? (Long OP)

[butterbumps!]

Because Jorah was exiled and The Old Bear was LC. Special case, and you knew that.

It had nothing to do with her childs claim, Viserys was alive and she wasn't the heir. He was worried about war, and what would happen should Danny or her child want to cross the narrow sea.

Butterbumps, I'm no going to respond to if you're going to continually ignore facts. You and I both know Illyrio didn't sell Danny to Drogo, that was Viserys. He thought he traded Danny for Drogo's army and loyalty, hence his persistence on being crowned.

It's really rich that you accuse me of "ignoring facts", when for the entire duration of this thread you persist in using conveniently cropped quotes (and you still don't put that Varys sentence into that quote you keep using, which is misleading), you selectively decide which POV's you deem worthy of consideration (or flat out ignoring), and more, you arbitrarily decide how to define "facts" as they contribute or detract from your cause. In terms of "facts" I have shown you to be incorrect about no less 5 than issues on here, including but not limited to Illyrio's payoff, Illyrio's providing Varys his little birds, reading between Illyrio's lines, that the PtwP and AAR are the same according to GRRM, and that the Free cities bribe the Dothraki to not invade and pillage. I have backed my corrections up with fully quoted passages from the text and SSMs. All you do is keep referring to the same 4 (mis) quotes, removed from context, and displaying a categorical disregard for anyone who is pointing out textual evidence that counters your points. You keep negating anyone who uses evidence or logic to conclude something that you don't like that you don't agree with the veracity of the evidence that they're providing, which is honestly kind of like foot-stamping.

But since you're accusing me of not factually supporting anything I'm saying, here's some support:

The Dothraki invasion was part of it, but Robert wanted Dany dead because:

"This child will soon enough spread her legs and start breeding more dragonspawn to plague me."

Also, I already provided you with evidence of Illyrio's selling Dany to Drogo-- Illyrio received horses and slaves, as per GoT, Dany II.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of this. I and many others have offered you a good deal of textual support, which you are categorically ignoring and simultaneously making accusations that we are not basing our points in evidence.

[Bravely Done]

That's...not difficult. They have purple eyes and silver-blond hair. And so did the Blackfyres.

Aegon was disguised.

And so do plenty of people in Essos.

No, they don't, only the Lysene. Though I will pose a question; if so many people in Essos carry the blood of the old freehold, why exactly is Aegon running around disguised?

You yourself said he's "one of the most clever and learned characters" in the books, and you described his figuring out Aegon's "true" identity as one of the most damning pieces of evidence in the books. I'm sorry you can't see why you're assertion that he nonetheless can't be trusted to judge when another person is lying to be hilariously contradictory on your part.

You can be intelligent while also being a poor judge of character. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I never said it did. All it does is discredit one of your "damning" pieces of evidence that Aegon is real.

He was a skeptic, naturally, but based upon his dialogue, even after he'd separated from Griff and Aegon, he believed the boy a prince.

Well, he actually characterizes the advice he gives to Aegon as "bait," which implies that he was actually trying to lead Aegon astray. But even if this weren't true, it wouldn't matter: Tyrion doesn't care about restoring the Targaryens to the throne, he cares about getting revenge on his family, and he'll use whoever he thinks is useful to do that.

Well, his future will alomost certainly involve him aiding a Targaryen sit the Iron throne. Otherwise he'll be someones but buddy in Essos.

The text also "smashes" R+L=J, until you read between the lines.

No, it doesn't. It leaves it a mystery.

How have they aided the Targaryens?

Why ask? You'll only ignore it and pretend it didn't happen after I post it.

Ships, provisions, Dragons, Selmy, Belwas, armies, shelter and protection, etc.

They let them travel unprotected from city to city, patron to patron, for thirteen years.

Why do you guys keep saying this.

DANNY AND VISERYS WERE WARDS OF SER WILLEM DARRY. He smuggled them off Dragonstone, and took them to Bravos, where they lived happily, for years. Nowhere in the text does it suggest that Illyrio and Varys were aware of those two's movements and motivations until they stumbled into Pentos. Since that time, Illyrio has done nothing but assist them.

They married Daenerys to a Dothraki horselord

Viserys. Look at the name, and understand that it was he that sold Danny(As she's pointed out in both the novels and televison series), not Illyrio.

which Illryio expected would lead to her death.

You guys love to take the book out of context. He thought she'd die because she was WEAK AND FEEBLE, AMONGST AN ARMY OF RAPPERS AND MURDERERS.

They allowed Viserys to go with her as well, far, far away into the Dothraki sea, away from any sort of protection they could offer him.

Are you series? Illyrio flat out stated VISERYS COULD REMAIN A GUEST IN PENTOS UNTIL DROGO WAS READY TO CROSS THE NARROW SEA.

Viserys insisted that he be brought along.

Varys even sent an assassin after Dany. If their aim was to help the Targaryens, they failed miserably.

Varys warned Jorah of the attempt, WHICH JORAH STATED WAS THE CASE, and remained in contact with Varys up until they left Qarth.

So? Aegon and Connington are getting their info from Varys and Illyrio.

Not quite sure what you're point is. Are you implying that only Varys and Illyrio know Aegon is a Blackfyre? Doesn't that mean for all intents and purposes that he's a Targaryen, since you know, he belives it? A fail to see what Varys and Illyrio gain by convincing Aegon he's a Targaryen, as opposed to a Blackfyre.

[Bravely Done]

And replacing the ruling dynasty is bound to be a special case, and you knew that.

I have half a mind to add you to my 'ignore' list. Not decided yet.

Except there's no more Blackfyres, because there was no one to carry on the line.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm too lazy to go through and reread everything, except to say that I 100% believe that Aegon is not legitimate and is probably a Blackfyre. Not counting the Gift Chapter, the Blackfyre Rebellion has gotten about 16-ish mentions in the series, two-thirds of them in ADWD, the book in which Aegon appears. Curious, no?

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but in AFFC, there's the dragon sign that washes out black and comes back red — a Blackfyre that comes back disguised as a Targaryen. Once you pick up on the thematic evidence, it's pretty damn clear.

Viserys. Look at the name, and understand that it was he that sold Danny(As she's pointed out in both the novels and televison series), not Illyrio.

Viserys may have benefited from it (in theory, eventually getting the army), but it was Illyrio who brokered the deal and it was, I believe, Illyrio whom Drogo paid.

[Vympel]

If Robert Arryn dies, Harry Hardyng, not Harry Arryn, will be Lord of the Vale. The Arryn line will have died with Robert, and thus rises the Hardyng.

Females don't carry the line.

Yes they do. The entire reason Harry is the Heir is because he's an Arryn descendant. Whether he actually takes the Arryn name on his ascent (which is completely unknown, but the fact Petyr calls him "the Young Falcon" should clue you in -House Hardyng does not take a falcon as their sigil, House Arryn does) is completely irrelevant to that point.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes they do. The entire reason Harry is the Heir is because he's an Arryn descendant. Whether he actually takes the Arryn name on his ascent (which is completely unknown, but the fact Petyr calls him "the Young Falcon" should clue you in -House Hardyng does not take a falcon as their sigil, House Arryn does) is completely irrelevant to that point.

That, and we know that at certain times in history, the Starks have had to rely on female-line descent to carry on.

ETA: If Harry became the Lord of the Vale, he would in all likelihood take the Arryn name. Just like the Tallhart boy would take the Hornwood name if he was allowed to inherit it through his mother.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I'll quote myself since its relevant and its already buried after ten minutes

I gotta add one more thing:

Bittersteel was serious about the rightful King of the iron throne. It was the exact same situation that Stannis was in during the war of five kings. Its another example of the cyclical nature of Westeros history.

They say Bittersteel and Daemon claimed Daeron II was a bastard born of Aemon the DragonKnight.

Bittersteel has a reputation of being true to his word and honorable, so I will take him for his word.

Aemon became KG at seventeen and later LC for his brother king.

He was in love with the Queen, his sister. A KG in love with his Queen/sister? They were accused of incest?

He was once a mystery knight to claim her the honor in a tourney (Sounds like honoring beauty never works...Rhaegar)

Then the legitimized, now the oldest trueborn son of Aegon IV, claims his right to the throne. (Awesome that I now support the Blackfyre rebellion and the rightful King Daemon Blackfyre, first of his name....damn KG incest Kings they never work out)

And so, like Stannis and Ser Massey:

-by the way thats a spoiler from tWoW Theon chapter...you've all read that, right?

Bittersteel was a man of honor only wanting the rightful King on the throne, acting just as Ser Massey is commanded in the above quote. He did not give the sword to Daemon II (I'll also assume Daemon II wasn't the oldest living Blackfyre, I hope its true) So he only ever cared about sitting the RIGHTFUL king to the throne.

Now jump to the War of the Ninepenny Kings

Once the male line of Blackfyres ended, who was the RIGHTFUL heir to the throne? Was it the living female Blackfyre and her sons? or was it the only other Targaryens left?

I'll assume that the commander of The Golden Company decided it was the living Targaryens sitting on the throne. This is obviously a very debatable decision and it could be used as evidence to support either case... :fencing:

The GC then work on building their rep and wait for a chance to help an exiled rightful heir to the throne....luckily they get their opportunity

This doesn't prove my point so much as questions the possibilities of Faegon Mopatis being the rightful heir to the throne:

1. That a daughter of Maelys married Illyrio, and then when she is over forty she gives birth to Faegon

2. That Maelys had a sister who had a daughter who married Illyrio and gave birth to Faegon

Any other splice of the Blackfyre blood would be too far removed for anyone to seriously give them a claim

And although the living line of Targs are the line of Aemon the KG dragonknight and his Queen/sister, She was still a Targaryen Queen and he was King Aegon IV's brother.

So...........Aegon is real! Whip out those cloth dragons we got! All hail Aegon "Mummer's Dragon" Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne :bowdown:

[Bravely Done]

So? It's still an example of a female line continuing the family name when they lack heirs from the male line. And there not the only example, either. As I said in a previous post, the Starks descend from a female line, if the story of Bael the Bard is to be believed.

That is the one example, and it's a particulraly speacial example do to the rareity of the happenstance. No one believes the Bael the Bard story but Mance and Wildlings. There's no certainly that it's true.

He's worried about Viserys, but he's also worried about Dany's baby, because it could continue the Targaryen line and therefore trouble him and his descendants for generations.

Danny could have had a hundred children and none of them would have been an heir so long as Viserys was alive. Nullyfying your example of the Targaryens being carried by a female line.(coincidence that her child died, right? Right. When she does concieve again, it'll be with someone of Dragon blood)

And now that Aegon's alive, she still isn't the heir.

Because the author himself said not to take anything as gospel.

Therefore I should right everything off as a lie.

Because Tyrion, whom you described as "one of the most clever and learned characters" in the books, and whose deduction of Aegon's "true" identity you cited as one of the most damning pieces of evidence proving his legitimacy, says he has a hidden agenda.

Again, you can be intelligent while also being a poor judge of charcater. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Bravely Done]

Viserys may have benefited from it (in theory, eventually getting the army), but it was Illyrio who brokered the deal and it was, I believe, Illyrio whom Drogo paid.

As I said, Blackfyre advocates just make stuff up. At no point in the book was it implied that Illyrio received a payment for Danny(what exactly would they pay him with, horses?), nor did Viserys "benefit". Viserys thought that by selling his sister, he would in turn receive an army, which would allow him to win back his fathers throne. Hence his persistance on being crowned, and receiving what he was owed.

[KyleLitke]

As I said, Blackfyre advocates just make stuff up. At no point in the book was it implied that Illyrio received a payment for Danny(what exactly would they pay him with, horses?), nor did Viserys "benefit". Viserys thought that by selling his sister, he would in turn receive an army, which would allow him to win back his fathers throne. Hence his persistance on being crowned, and receiving what he was owed.

It may not have technically been payment due to how the Dothraki handle these "transactions" (giving of gifts), but yes, he ABSOLUTELY benefited. It's not implied, it's flat out stated. When he gives Dany her eggs, she thinks that he can afford to be lavish because he "collected a small fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo".

[Bravely Done]

That, and we know that at certain times in history, the Starks have had to rely on female-line descent to carry on.

ETA: If Harry became the Lord of the Vale, he would in all likelihood take the Arryn name. Just like the Tallhart boy would take the Hornwood name if he was allowed to inherit it through his mother.

When "Arya" Stark married Ramsay Bolton, did he become a Stark, or she a Bolton? When Tyrion married Sansa, did she become a stark, or a Lannister? And in both cases, had they conceived and had sons, what would their sons be named?

[Toccs]

As I said, Blackfyre advocates just make stuff up. At no point in the book was it implied that Illyrio received a payment for Danny(what exactly would they pay him with, horses?),

Yes that is exactly what they paid him. A fortune in horses and slaves. You're right it's not implied in the books, it is flat out stated.

[Bravely Done]

It may not have technically been payment due to how the Dothraki handle these "transactions" (giving of gifts), but yes, he ABSOLUTELY benefited. It's not implied, it's flat out stated. When he gives Dany her eggs, she thinks that he can afford to be lavish because he "collected a small fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo".

So his motivting factor behind selling Danny to Drogo, which he didn't do, was to collect a small fortune in horses and slaves?

[Bravely Done]

Yes that is exactly what they paid him. A fortune in horses and slaves. You're right it's not implied in the books, it is flat out stated.

Again, the motivating factor behind selling Danny to Drogo was so he could earn a small forture in horses and slaves?

[KyleLitke]

So his motivting factor behind selling Danny to Drogo, which he didn't do, was to collect a small fortune in horses and slaves?

Huh? Where did I say anything of the sort? You claimed the text never even implied he collected anything and sarcastically asked if they paid in horses. Yes they did and it's flat out stated. I was letting you know, I know I don't remember every little thing in the text and forget things a lot, I just happened to remember that line. No, I definitely don't think that was his motivating factor, but to claim he collected no payment at all is simply not true.

[Toccs]

So his motivting factor behind selling Danny to Drogo, which he didn't do, was to collect a small fortune in horses and slaves?

You're being deliberatley obtuse. His motivating factor in selling Dany to Drogo was to get Drogo's khalasar no one suggested otherwise. The fact that he was the one Drogo paid for his bride is evidence that the deal was between Illyrio and Drogo and it was not Viserys doing the selling.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When "Arya" Stark married Ramsay Bolton, did he become a Stark, or she a Bolton? When Tyrion married Sansa, did she become a stark, or a Lannister? And in both cases, had they conceived and had sons, what would their sons be named?

Not the same situation at all — Ramsay holds Winterfell because of his marriage to "Arya," but it's the Bolton name that's now paramount in the North, not the Stark name, and we don't know what the plan was for Tyrion and Sansa's children. What we're saying is that a female can pass along her family name if she's the heir designate. Dorne does it all the time. Rhaenyra Targaryen sure as hell passed her name on, considering that virtually every Targaryen since descends directly from her.

But hey, be belligerent and accuse me of making things up, it really strengthens your argument. :rolleyes:

ETA: "It (the dragon eggs) was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo."

Illyrio brokered the deal.

[Vympel]

Did anyone notice how Bravely Done says "Blackfyre advocates make stuff up" and when he's proven wrong in that regard (again, calling into question whether he actually reads the books as much as he chides others for not doing so) at no point does he admit error, he pivots to a new argument like it never happened? :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did anyone notice how Bravely Done says "Blackfyre advocates make stuff up" and when he's proven wrong in that regard (again, calling into question whether he actually reads the books as much as he chides others for not doing so) at no point does he admit error, he pivots to a new argument like it never happened? :)

T-r-o-l-l?

[Bravely Done]

Not the same situation at all — Ramsay holds Winterfell because of his marriage to "Arya," but it's the Bolton name that's now paramount in the North, not the Stark name, and we don't know what the plan was for Tyrion and Sansa's children.

Yes, we do. Tyrion was supposed to get her pregnant in order that the Lannisters could hold dominion over Winterfell.

What we're saying is that a female can pass along her family name if she's the heir designate.

Ok.

Dorne does it all the time. Rhaenyra Targaryen sure as hell passed her name on, considering that virtually every Targaryen since descends directly from her.

Dorne is the only Kingdom of the 7 that allows for women to be crowned. Their woman actually can carry on a line.

But hey, be belligerent and accuse me of making things up, it really strengthens your argument. :rolleyes:

You're excused.