Aegon is Legitimate: It's Obvious, Right? (Long OP)

[mcb]

Is there any examples of a female carrying the line in ASOIAF?

Maege Mormont and her daughters.

[Jem]

If Robert Arryn dies, Harry Hardyng, not Harry Arryn, will be Lord of the Vale. The Arryn line will have died with Robert, and thus rises the Hardyng.

Females don't carry the line.

Harry (or any other heir from the female line) would change his name to Arryn. Thus continues the House of Arryn.

And why is Harry the heir and not some other random person? Because his mother's mother was an Arryn.

[butterbumps!]

Danny is a product of incest, and will marry into incest. The Targaryens are above the laws of Gods and men, something that's been pointed out throughout this series.

Is there any examples of a female carrying the line in ASOIAF?

Q. Why do you think Robert blew a gasket when he learned Dany was pregnant with Drogo's kid? A. The kid would have a Targaryen claim for the throne through his mother's line.

Also, since Dany is a product of incest and will marry into incest, how do you explain the fact that Illyrio sold her to Drogo, who was to the best of my knowledge, not related to her?

[Dragonfish]

Tyrion is a good choice when identifying the physical characteristics of a Targaryen,

That's...not difficult. They have purple eyes and silver-blond hair. And so did the Blackfyres. And so do plenty of people in Essos.

since he's shown he's very much learned in Dragonlore, but based on how he acts, the decisons he makes, and those he chooses for company, I'm hesitant to trust his opinions of ones character. Least your forget, Tyrion wasn't a fan of Griff either, yet readers know Griff's intentions are just, and many fans have enjoyed reading his chapters.

I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

You yourself said he's "one of the most clever and learned characters" in the books, and you described his figuring out Aegon's "true" identity as one of the most damning pieces of evidence in the books. I'm sorry you can't see why you're assertion that he nonetheless can't be trusted to judge when another person is lying to be hilariously contradictory on your part.

I hardly see how Tyrions speticisms prove the "pact" was and is a ruse.

I never said it did. All it does is discredit one of your "damning" pieces of evidence that Aegon is real.

And though Tyrion may be a skeptic, he treats and councils the boy as if he were legit.

Well, he actually characterizes the advice he gives to Aegon as "bait," which implies that he was actually trying to lead Aegon astray. But even if this weren't true, it wouldn't matter: Tyrion doesn't care about restoring the Targaryens to the throne, he cares about getting revenge on his family, and he'll use whoever he thinks is useful to do that.

Well, the primary reason things that have been deemed untrue or "lies" is because the text completely and utterly smashes any Blackfyre theories.

The text also "smashes" R+L=J, until you read between the lines.

Moreover, I've stated multiple times that it's more than what the characters say, but what they do. Regardless of what Varys or Illyrio have said, or what people think of them, the vast majority of their actions have aided the Targaryens in some fashion.

How have they aided the Targaryens? They let them travel unprotected from city to city, patron to patron, for thirteen years. They married Daenerys to a Dothraki horselord, which Illryio expected would lead to her death. They allowed Viserys to go with her as well, far, far away into the Dothraki sea, away from any sort of protection they could offer him. Varys even sent an assassin after Dany. If their aim was to help the Targaryens, they failed miserably.

Aegons actions imply that he truly believes himself Rheagars son, as do Connington's.

So? Aegon and Connington are getting their info from Varys and Illyrio.

[Jem]

Danny is a product of incest, and will marry into incest. The Targaryens are above the laws of Gods and men, something that's been pointed out throughout this series.

Yes, the Targaryens are different. They absolutely ban female inheritance unless there is a male relative around to do the job. It doesn't seem to matter how distantly the male is related to the main line - if he has a dick, he will do (there is even some debate about whether or not a male from a female line is ahead of a female of the direct line, but I believe that this is unclear).

In the other houses, a daughter of the direct line inherits over her uncle or male cousins. In such a case, the daughter and her husband and their children will take the female's last name and her children will inherit after her. Hence, those children will have inherited via the female line.

[KyleLitke]

I apologize if this was already brought up, it's a long thread at this point...if it has, let me know and I'll go looking.

What exactly was the plan for Aegon when Viserys was still around?

With Dany, sure, Aegon could marry her (which seems to be the plan) and they could rule together. But Viserys? What exactly did Varys and Illyrio think would happen when they spent all this time prepping Viserys, got the Dothraki on his side, and then revealed Aegon, who (if legitimate) would have a better claim than Viserys to the throne? They'd essentially be creating a second Dance in all likelihood. Makes me wonder if Aegon was more a "backup plan" to Viserys, especially since they didn't really have any idea what Dany was at that point. If so, it would imply Aegon might not legitimately be Aegon. Or, I suppose, Viserys could have been the backup plan (who happened to be ready first).

[Jem]

I apologize if this was already brought up, it's a long thread at this point...if it has, let me know and I'll go looking.

What exactly was the plan for Aegon when Viserys was still around?

With Dany, sure, Aegon could marry her (which seems to be the plan) and they could rule together. But Viserys? What exactly did Varys and Illyrio think would happen when they spent all this time prepping Viserys, got the Dothraki on his side, and then revealed Aegon, who (if legitimate) would have a better claim than Viserys to the throne? They'd essentially be creating a second Dance in all likelihood.

I believe that Viserys was to invade Westeros with the Dothraki while Aegon rode in and became a hero by killing Viserys and driving back the Dothraki, thus saving Westeros.

[Bravely Done]

Where do you get this idea that The Golden Company didn't know Aegon existed

In the text.

"Thank you, but no", said Griff. "We will drink water."

Strickland: "As you prefer." The captain-general smiled up at the prince at the prince. "And this must be your son?"

Griff: "Does he know?" Griff wondered. How much did Myles tell him? The plans that he and Illyrio had made with Blackheart had been known to them alone. The rest of the company had been left ignorant. What they did not know they could not let slip.

That time was done, though. "No man could have asked for a worthier son, "Griff said", "but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstbirn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Ellia of Dorne... soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the sixth of his name, king of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the first men, and lord of the seven kingdoms.

Silence greeted his accouncement.

They know, Griff realized then. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. "When did you tell them?"

Strickland: The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath "When we reached the river". The company was restless, with good reason. we walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?

when the books make several points of showing that the leadership of the Golden Company is well aware of Aegon. Toyne was in on the plan from the begining and he told Strickland who it is revealed told the other leaders after they had broken contract.

Toyne wasn't in it from the begginning, he was the coinmaster. The only people within the campany that had knowledge of the pact when it happened was Blackheart and Connington.

They didn't break contract to serve Dany. They were serving Aegon and hoping to marry him to Dany. If Dany was their focus then they would not have followed Aegon to Westeros.

So you're going to continue to disregard the text so you can hold onto some ludicrious theory?

Tyrion: "I admire your powers of persuasion," Tyrion told Illyrio. How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?

Illyrio: Illyrio brushed away the objection as if it were a fly. "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maels the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of house Blackfyre. And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

At this point the company did not know Aegon existed per the above quotes.

And later...

Strickland: She is in Meereen and we are here, where the Volantenes grow daily more unhappy with our presence. We came to raise up a king and queen who would lead us home to Westeros, but this Targaryen girl seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming her father throne.

....

Tristan Rivers: All the more reason we muct reach her quickly, I say. If Daenerys will not come to us, we must go to Daenerys.

Lysono Maar: I tell you again, we cannot reach the Silver Queen by sea.

...

Strickland: One broken contract is stain enough upon our honor. Let me remind you, it was Myles Tone who put his seal to this secert pact, not me. I would honor the agreement if I could, but how? It seems plain to me that the Targaryen girl is never coming west. Westeros was her fathers kingdom, Meereen is hers.

[Dragonfish]

So you're going to continue to disregard the text so you can hold onto some ludicrious theory?

Tyrion: "I admire your powers of persuasion," Tyrion told Illyrio. How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?

Illyrio: Illyrio brushed away the objection as if it were a fly. "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maels the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of house Blackfyre. And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home."

At this point the company did not know Aegon existed per the above quotes.

:bang:

Do. Not. Trust. IILYRIO!

God, I need a drink.

[DurararaFTW]

Varys may believe that the upbringing that Aegon has had, has the greatest possibility to produce a capable monarch, but one things for sure, the one that he put Dany and Viserys through didn't. You say he is the one that warned Jorah about the asssassination attempt; Varys is the one spying on Dany, Varys is the one that brough tidings to Roberts council, varys sided against Ned and Barristan in eliminating her, Varys was the one that put out the order for her assassination and Jorah only decided to switch sides just then.

Varys and Illyrio did nothing to save or prepare Dany and Viserys when they were among the Dothraki and in fact probably didn't expect them too.

[KyleLitke]

I believe that Viserys was to invade Westeros with the Dothraki while Aegon rode in and became a hero by killing Viserys and driving back the Dothraki, thus saving Westeros.

Oh, I didn't even think of that one. That's a good thought, actually, especially since Illyrio and Varys could clearly see Viserys was not exactly ideal king material.

[Bravely Done]

Maege Mormont and her daughters.

Because Jorah was exiled and The Old Bear was LC. Special case, and you knew that.

Q. Why do you think Robert blew a gasket when he learned Dany was pregnant with Drogo's kid? A. The kid would have a Targaryen claim for the throne through his mother's line.

It had nothing to do with her childs claim, Viserys was alive and she wasn't the heir. He was worried about war, and what would happen should Danny or her child want to cross the narrow sea.

Also, since Dany is a product of incest and will marry into incest, how do you explain the fact that Illyrio sold her to Drogo, who was to the best of my knowledge, not related to her?

Butterbumps, I'm no going to respond to if you're going to continually ignore facts. You and I both know Illyrio didn't sell Danny to Drogo, that was Viserys. He thought he traded Danny for Drogo's army and loyalty, hence his persistence on being crowned.

[Bravely Done]

:bang:

Do. Not. Trust. IILYRIO!

God, I need a drink.

Why? What he said was true, evident by the following quotes of GC members.

[Jem]

In the text.

Toyne wasn't in it from the begginning, he was the coinmaster. The only people within the campany that had knowledge of the pact when it happened was Blackheart and Connington.

Toyne is Blackheart.

[nothatso]

You guys have been going at this for 16 hours straight.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[KyleLitke]

Varys may believe that the upbringing that Aegon has had, has the greatest possibility to produce a capable monarch, but one things for sure, the one that he put Dany and Viserys through didn't. You say he is the one that warned Jorah about the asssassination attempt; Varys is the one spying on Dany, Varys is the one that brough tidings to Roberts council, varys sided against Ned and Barristan in eliminating her, Varys was the one that put out the order for her assassination and Jorah only decided to switch sides just then.

Varys and Illyrio did nothing to save or prepare Dany and Viserys when they were among the Dothraki and in fact probably didn't expect them too.

Well, I won't disagree with your first point about creating a capable monarch, but I'm not sure the rest is fair to use against Varys. As far as we know, he only gave up information that would have come out anyway, so Jorah spying for him doesn't mean he's not also on her side. Naturally he was in favor of eliminating her...there was no chance that the motion to let her go free was going to carry, that was pretty clear just going by the people on the Council and the fact that the King was gung ho about killing her. Ned and Barristan can easily be written off as "honor", but if Varys votes to keep her alive, he looks very suspicious.

I will give you that Varys could, in theory, have not given an order to have her assassinated at all, and just told Robert he did, it's unlikely it would have somehow gotten back to Robert that he didn't. I do think his explanation had some merit, that a failed assassination attempt alerted the Dothraki to the possibility, and kicked them into action (although it didn't end up mattering, the failed attempt was what set Drogo off).

[mcb]

Because Jorah was exiled and The Old Bear was LC. Special case, and you knew that.

And replacing the ruling dynasty is bound to be a special case, and you knew that.

I have half a mind to add you to my 'ignore' list. Not decided yet.

[Dragonfish]

Because Jorah was exiled and The Old Bear was LC. Special case, and you knew that.

So? It's still an example of a female line continuing the family name when they lack heirs from the male line. And there not the only example, either. As I said in a previous post, the Starks descend from a female line, if the story of Bael the Bard is to be believed.

It had nothing to do with her childs claim, Viserys was alive and she wasn't the heir. He was worried about war, and what would happen should Danny or her child want to cross the narrow sea.

He's worried about Viserys, but he's also worried about Dany's baby, because it could continue the Targaryen line and therefore trouble him and his descendants for generations.

Why? What he said was true, evident by the following quotes of GC members.

Because the author himself said not to take anything as gospel. Because Tyrion, whom you described as "one of the most clever and learned characters" in the books, and whose deduction of Aegon's "true" identity you cited as one of the most damning pieces of evidence proving his legitimacy, says he has a hidden agenda.

[KyleLitke]

Did Tyrion even deduce who Aegon was? I thought he won the information in a game of Cyvasse.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

I gotta add one more thing:

Bittersteel was serious about the rightful King of the iron throne. It was the exact same situation that Stannis was in during the war of five kings. Its another example of the cyclical nature of Westeros history.

They say Bittersteel and Daemon claimed Daeron II was a bastard born of Aemon the DragonKnight.

Bittersteel has a reputation of being true to his word and honorable, so I will take him for his word.

Aemon became KG at seventeen and later LC for his brother king.

He was in love with the Queen, his sister. A KG in love with his Queen/sister? They were accused of incest?

He was once a mystery knight to claim her the honor in a tourney (Sounds like honoring beauty never works...Rhaegar)

Then the legitimized, now the oldest trueborn son of Aegon IV, claims his right to the throne. (Awesome that I now support the Blackfyre rebellion and the rightful King Daemon Blackfyre, first of his name....damn KG incest Kings they never work out)

And so, like Stannis and Ser Massey:

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

Ser Justin put one hand on his sword hilt. "On my honor as a knight, you have my word."

-by the way thats a spoiler from tWoW Theon chapter...you've all read that, right?

Bittersteel was a man of honor only wanting the rightful King on the throne, acting just as Ser Massey is commanded in the above quote. He did not give the sword to Daemon II (I'll also assume Daemon II wasn't the oldest living Blackfyre, I hope its true) So he only ever cared about sitting the RIGHTFUL king to the throne.

Now jump to the War of the Ninepenny Kings

Once the male line of Blackfyres ended, who was the RIGHTFUL heir to the throne? Was it the living female Blackfyre and her sons? or was it the only other Targaryens left?

I'll assume that the commander of The Golden Company decided it was the living Targaryens sitting on the throne. This is obviously a very debatable decision and it could be used as evidence to support either case... :fencing:

The GC then work on building their rep and wait for a chance to help an exiled rightful heir to the throne....luckily they get their opportunity

This doesn't prove my point so much as questions the possibilities of Faegon Mopatis being the rightful heir to the throne:

1. That a daughter of Maelys married Illyrio, and then when she is over forty she gives birth to Faegon

2. That Maelys had a sister who had a daughter who married Illyrio and gave birth to Faegon

Any other splice of the Blackfyre blood would be too far removed for anyone to seriously give them a claim

And although the living line of Targs are the line of Aemon the KG dragonknight and his Queen/sister, She was still a Targaryen Queen and he was King Aegon IV's brother.

So...........Aegon is real! Whip out those cloth dragons we got! All hail Aegon "Mummer's Dragon" Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne :bowdown: