What if Jon really IS dead?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe Martin should have wrapped up (or seemed to wrap up) some of Jon's more obvious threads before "killing" him, if only so people would actually believe he's dead.

I can sort of agree with this — but that assumes that GRRM actually wants people to believe he's dead. I think we're expected to believe that Jon was betrayed and is in bad shape and will need help getting out of it, but I don't think we're actually meant to believe he's dead. Not because GRRM's pulling one over on us — like you said, it'd work better if it hadn't been done before and had more closure involved — but because Jon legitimately isn't dead. His amusement at and borderline chiding of the EW writer for thinking Jon was killed off points to this: We're not meant to actually believe Jon's dead.

[DragonAge93]

I don't think he is truly dead, that'd be like Martin killing Tyrion. Though Martin may be famous for killing off characters, I think we can assume people like Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, and maybe Jaime will be safe till at least the final book. They've come too far and become main characters for GRRM to just kill off unlike someone like Ned who was killed in the first book, and we didn't get that deep into his character.

Though if Jon does die, I'll actually like it (even though he's my second favorite behind Ned), because it shows that no one, not even MAJOR characters, are safe.

[Faint]

Yeah, why not? The author should kill of Tyrion and Daenerys too. And, while he's at it, he should get rid of Arya, Bran and Sansa. I'm sure the story won't suffer as a result.

[Hear Us Roar]

I would love it if he died. Would not expect that at all

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would love it if he died. Would not expect that at all

But you don't get brownie points as a writer for including the biggest "up yours" cheap plot shock.

[The Snowman]

I never believed he was dead. I think GRRM purposely placed Jon's storyline ahead of everyone else's so that no outside POV can hear about it and make it look like he's dead. Also I don't believe George has killed anyone as their POV (and they stayed dead eg:Cat)

I'll be honest Jon is my favourite POV of the series and I'only warmed up to Daenerys right at the end of AGOT then stopped liking her til the house of the undying mainly because of all the hints and clues for everything else that we got and then there was Dracarys and then nothing again. Maybe I;m just tired of being in the head of a teenage girl with the self entitlement of the world. Anyway that was off topic, back to Jon, I think we'll find the Night's Watchmen at Castle Black to under the command of Tormund with those that stabbed Jon to be strung up. I only say this because the plot needs to be quickened if we are to get an ending within the next 2 books and that's the easiest way to do that.

Having Jon dead cripples the plot in my opinion, we keep getting this build up and Jon has been at the Wall since the beginning(almost) and sure it'd be shocking if he was dead but how does it help the story afterwards? Ned's death set off the War of the Five Kings(sorta) but it got Robb crowned as King in the North, so in a way it had its purpose other than showing that honour can kill you. Robb's death was shocking but he was in a bad position anyway, its not like he was winning the war any more. Also to add to Robb's death, Balon Greyjoy died(bringing Vic and Euron into the picture) Joffrey died (Thank God) which set Tyrion onto killing Tywin and then going onto his current arc, LF got Sansa out of KL and then killed Lysa and Jon was proclaimed LC of the NW.

Its not like Robb's death was the end of all things in ASOS. Also with the battle of winterfell to come and its aftermath (letter) to be cleared up and Rickon coming back, Jon being there would be added assurance that it is indeed Rickon. Also I think Jon's 'death' may serve as a way for Jon to change a little more and also might just say to hell with the watch and go and fight for rickon.

Anyway thats my 2/20 cents on the topic

[Blisscraft]

In a literary sense, Jon entered the the belly of the whale when he went into the shield hall to give his speech about riding out after Ramsay Snow. The shield hall is a long dark cavernous space with rows of wooden rafters and benches, like the ribs of a whale. George reminds us to look for the belly of the whale by having Davos go into a tavern with this actual name earlier in the book.

The belly of the whale is when the hero enters the most dangerous part of his quest, the journey into the underworld. So yes, Jon has to "die" next. But it doesn't have to be literal. It can be metaphorical, as in a personality change. Or a near miss, as in a serious injury.

But the step after the "death" is the return, bearing the boon which will redeem or rescue his world. So his story is not over. No way.

This is a great point. The belly of the whale is a metaphorical equivalent of rebirth. It's as if god, as in the Jonah story from which it derives, swallows up the hero to redirect his or her goal from individual to agent of god. It's a sacrifice.

[Scipio Africanus]

It would blow because Jonny is R+L=J. And he never found out about it which Martin promised he would.

The only thing I fear is that he becomes a zombie or the next Night King.

Poster Teal made a nice catch though about the whole belly of the whale thing.

[Golden&Crimson]

But the wounds of Jon (if i remember correctly: in the neck, back and belly) could be mortal? He would die for the loss of blood and possibly some pierced internal organs...

[The Snowman]

But the wounds of Jon (if i remember correctly: in the neck, back and belly) could be mortal? He would die for the loss of blood and possibly some pierced internal organs...

Think about how much fur and clothing they have on around their chest and especially top of their back and neck (he was stabbed in the stomach and shoulder blades. His words were "He didn't feel the fourth (dagger) and then the cold." not totally right but its basically the same. So maybe the fourth never connected. The Wildings and the major part of the watch were with Jon and trying to kill the Lord Commander is comparable to treason.

He will need to be attended to quite quickly but I think he'll be okay. He has kind of an insurance policy by being able to warg Ghost but he will need a body to come back to and Jon needs to be able to keep moving or the plot would be in danger of stangnating and George can't have that if he's going to finish this series in Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring

[Gurkhal]

The more I think about it, the more I like it, honestly. Anyone else feeling this way?

I like it too, ALOT. I hope he's dead and his ashes gets throw to the winds from the Wall.

[lakin1013]

This is just argument for the sake of it and you even state in your own post that this might not be best for the narrative. For gosh sakes, why not stick to your guns and see how far the argument can go. Because it seems like you are arguing something like .... I don't like this character so sh/he should die or you are arguing ...When something seems commonly established, what if we looked at it from another angle? In the case of the former, if this were the rule, what happens to the idea of narrative, the author's intent, and the power of the reader? In the case if the latter, isn't that critical analysis? Because then the question becomes .. if Jon is dead, then what does that mean to the story? the tower of joy? his parentage and so on.

[The Frosted King]

If Jon is dead, then the show is doomed 6 six seasons in, because he's the last tangible STARK advocate around.

Bran is doing garden stuff, Rickon is awol, Sansa trapped in the vale, in a base identity, and Arya is a murderess in the free city of braavos.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a great point. The belly of the whale is a metaphorical equivalent of rebirth. It's as if god, as in the Jonah story from which it derives, swallows up the hero to redirect his or her goal from individual to agent of god. It's a sacrifice.

And I could have sworn that we have some kind of important-ish prophecy thingie that specifically references the rebirth of someone. Oh well, I'm sure it's not that big of a deal.

[Kittyhat]

This is just argument for the sake of it and you even state in your own post that this might not be best for the narrative. For gosh sakes, why not stick to your guns and see how far the argument can go.

I don't know. Perhaps I get tired of being accused of arguing for the sake of arguing or just wanting characters dead because I don't like them. Can get a bit wearying after a while, you know? ;)

Really though, it was just a thought, the sort of thought you share in a "what do you think of this?" sense and not something I'm deeply married to (despite the fact that the notion is compelling to me to some extent). Must every thread carry the weight of deep personal conviction and attachment? Can't we sometimes just pose a question, ask something that intrigues us but isn't of extreme importance to us?

On reflection, though, I suppose to work it would really need to be something Martin planned all along, something he'd meant to do from the start. If he simply changed things so that Jon was suddenly dead instead of alive as originally planned, it would be a cheap move, much as others here have suggested.

But if you want to take this further ... then what if Martin had planned for him to die all along? What if his whole story and his apparent Main Character Hero status were one massive red herring, and perhaps in some way that in itself were the main point of his entire arc? In fairness, you could replace Jon with Daenerys and pose the same question, and perhaps for those who love Jon and dislike Dany, it would be easier to consider the question in that way, though of course currently at least, it's Jon and not Dany who's at least seemingly been "killed."

Presumably, in such a scenario, Martin would already have plans in place to tie everything together after the fact, so that Jon (or alternatively Dany, if you prefer) would indeed turn out to be far less integral to the story than originally imagined. What would that mean for the story as a whole? Would this kind pf playing with our expectations, with what we "know" about heroic fantasy, be worth it in the end, provided it were indeed planned from the start and not merely tacked on as a "troll"?

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

As to the rest, well, we'll see. I'm not even saying it would be the best thing narratively, and perhaps ultimately it is for the best that his survival is a foregone conclusion. But heavens, I can't help thinking the dropped jaws would be worth it somehow.

I think there would have been a lot more dropped jaws if he killed Jon quickly and confirmed his death right away, similarly to what Martin did with Ned and Robb. As it stands now, it will be years before Jon's death is confirmed or denied, giving every fan ample time to come to terms with the fact that Jon might be dead. I know a lot of people think Jon will be fine, but I think even the biggest Jon fan in the world would be lying if they said that they haven't contemplated what the series would be like going forward without Jon.

[Teal'c]

And I could have sworn that we have some kind of important-ish prophecy thingie that specifically references the rebirth of someone. Oh well, I'm sure it's not that big of a deal.

Return from the underworld and apotheosis. Coming soon!

[Kittyhat]

I think there would have been a lot more dropped jaws if he killed Jon quickly and confirmed his death right away, similarly to what Martin did with Ned and Robb. As it stands now, it will be years before Jon's death is confirmed or denied, giving every fan ample time to come to terms with the fact that Jon might be dead. I know a lot of people think Jon will be fine, but I think even the biggest Jon fan in the world would be lying if they said that they haven't contemplated what the series would be like going forward without Jon.

But the way he did it made it seem certain that Jon is fine. Look around these forums, and try to find people who believe Jon is really dead. Try to find threads that discuss him as if he weren't still alive.

Then come back here and say this.

The way he's been presented and the way he was "killed" make it "obvious" he's still alive ... and that's why the impact would be so profound if, in fact, he weren't. Especially after all those years of assuming he must be fine.

[bloodymime]

And I could have sworn that we have some kind of important-ish prophecy thingie that specifically references the rebirth of someone. Oh well, I'm sure it's not that big of a deal.

Sam is emerging from the whale that was his body and cowardice and he'll certainly cry enough wihle being bathed in the smoke of Aemon's funeral pyre.

[Wise Fool]

I don't know. Being stabbed a bunch of times does tend to have lethal consequences. Sure, there are narrative and mythical reasons why it shouldn't be, but there are medical reasons why it should. I tend to agree however that he'll receive some sort of resurrection relating to his warginess, but at the same time I'm kind of tired of hearing from his POV.