are the others realy that evil?

[Im no Ser]

Because human societies in ASOIAF have found a way to co-exist with other sentient races (the giants, the COTF) that does not involve genocide.

The Others demonstrably have not.

Unless of course you believe, as many do, that the COTF are or have some connection with the Others. In which case they have managed to live in some degree of peace with their neighbors for the vast majority of human history, and are capable of negotiated settlement.

The bottom line is that we don't know enough about the Others to make substantive conclusions.

[Lamech]

I'm afraid after the ending of Season 2 of the show there is a strong visual image of the white walkers, herding a vast horde of wights towards the Fist. When reading the novels we only meet a white walker twice. At the first sighting they kill after been challenged (prologue AGOT). The second sighting is when Sam kills the one who dismounts from his horse, while it is not clear what he wants to do. The violence we read is done by wights. There is a strong suggestion by the tales of Old Nan, and now fortified by that image in the show, that the white walkers are responsible for the wightifying of those poor men and beasts. We haven't read proof though (although I think they are responsible for it).

I can't recall and I don't have the books near, but was it the humans or the others who struck first in each case? If we've only seen them twice and they weren't the ones that struck first? It doesn't really scream evil to me. Oh and the idea that they don't negotiate, and can't co-exist?

1) The night's king. I think this puts a kibosh on the claims that they never negotiate. Not only do they do exactly that, they marry humans.

2) Forcing Wildings out? Maynce has been gathering them.

3) Craster's sacrifices? This either a) kills the idea that they don't negotiate. Hard. or c) Craster has just been giving them stuff without any promting on their part. Oh and regardless it demonstrates co-existance.

Also have we seen any giant wights?

[FanTasy]

I can't recall and I don't have the books near, but was it the humans or the others who struck first in each case? If we've only seen them twice and they weren't the ones that struck first? It doesn't really scream evil to me. Oh and the idea that they don't negotiate, and can't co-exist?

1) The night's king. I think this puts a kibosh on the claims that they never negotiate. Not only do they do exactly that, they marry humans.

2) Forcing Wildings out? Maynce has been gathering them.

3) Craster's sacrifices? This either a) kills the idea that they don't negotiate. Hard. or c) Craster has just been giving them stuff without any promting on their part. Oh and regardless it demonstrates co-existance.

Also have we seen any giant wights?

About who struck first: Royce at the first sighting of a white walker (Prologue AGOT). Samwell had the pleasure of meeting the second white walker. What I recall is the guy dismounted and Sam did what Jon said to Arya: 'stick'm with the pointy end'. This resulted immediately in a blue puddle.

Giant wights: good question! I seem to remember there was one at the Fist attack but I'll have to check.

[Swordsaint]

By all means don't feel obligated to explain further if you don't want to, but I just wanted to let you know that your theory sounds really interesting! I'm wondering what "the truth of the Targs" could possibly mean. :P

Here's one of my ending theories. Only because I'm drunk, and I hope I forget it when I pass out.

in-short, I believe the Targs are decedents of R'hllor, it's what gave them their abilities, their sorcery, strongest steal, dragon control, etc. I believe the Starks are decedents of the Great Other via the Night King. That makes Jon a decedent of both gods. Because Jon will obviously be over-powered when he comes back I think it will be a while. I have a hundred ideas about what go's on from here. Most of which are sad because Jon coming back is not going to be free. Only life can pay for life. The differences between Jon and Drogo is that Jon can warg.

[Lamech]

About who struck first: Royce at the first sighting of a white walker (Prologue AGOT). Samwell had the pleasure of meeting the second white walker. What I recall is the guy dismounted and Sam did what Jon said to Arya: 'stick'm with the pointy end'. This resulted immediately in a blue puddle.

Giant wights: good question! I seem to remember there was one at the Fist attack but I'll have to check.

Wait, so if they didn't attack first... which means all the attacks have come from the wights. Of course, this raises a serious question: how do we know the others are making the wights, and not the children of the forest?

[FanTasy]

Wait, so if they didn't attack first... which means all the attacks have come from the wights. Of course, this raises a serious question: how do we know the others are making the wights, and not the children of the forest?

We don't ... although the white walkers are the 'usual suspects'.

Old Nan said they used the wights as their servants. She did not say they made them.

What else do we know? The white walkers are associated with a sudden coldness. And we know that 'cold preserves while fire consumes'.

Clearly something is preserving the wights.

As Sam tried to tell Jon it is not known if it gets cold because the white walkers appear or that they appear because it is cold.

It could be some other force that is responsible for the wightifying.

What is interesting is that you don't have to be killed by a white walker to become a wight.

People who are killed by other people can turn into wights, that's why corpses people that fall are killed in battle are burned.

[Vampire Squid]

Wait, so if they didn't attack first... which means all the attacks have come from the wights. Of course, this raises a serious question: how do we know the others are making the wights, and not the children of the forest?

Coldhands' eyes don't glow blue. The Others' eyes do. Assuming Coldhands is controlled by Bloodraven or one of the Children (or is self-willed and just on their side), there's a clear difference between him and other wights, and a clear similarity between hostile wights and the Others.

[the trees have eyes]

Yes, the Others are evil. You can quibble about "incompatability" and unexplained ulterior motives but they kill anyone and anything they can. The wildlings have lived beyond the Wall for 8,000 years as have the giants but they are all fleeing south to escape certain death.

In all of Jon's chapters with Ygritte and Tormund and Mance where do you ever get a sense of anything but implacable and unrelenting hostility? There is no attempt to coexist or communicate or negotiate only to destroy, Tormund tells Jon, "you killed a dead man? Mance killed a hundred. But how do you fight the cold, how do you fight a white mist? [sic]".

You can play devil's advocate and say its the COTF who made the wights, that men attack first (wrong - read the prologue of AGOT and the scene in ASOS where the Other is stalking the stragglers and kills Small Paul - they aren't coming to chat), that the Long Night is propaganda or a myth and the Others are just another faction but:

The whole story of the Long Night and Azor Ahai, the last hero, the legend of the Prince who was Promised and the War for the Dawn, the chilling scenes in the Prologue, in Mormont's Tower, on the Fist of the First Men, Melisandre's vision of Hardhome in her fires, Cotter Pyke's ominous letter from there "Dead things in the woods, dead things in the water", the whole purpose of the Wall and the Nights' Watch is a pretty big build up from GRRM that these guys are bad news.

Evil doesn't have to mean a mindless zombie and the Others appear to be intelligent and to have both a culture and magic. I expect their explanation to be an interesting one but I don't think it will alter the basic premise from the very start that they are evil.

[FanTasy]

You can play devil's advocate and say its the COTF who made the wights, that men attack first (wrong - read the prologue of AGOT and the scene in ASOS where the Other is stalking the stragglers and kills Small Paul - they aren't coming to chat), that the Long Night is propaganda or a myth and the Others are just another faction but:

Just checked what is in the books.

Prologue AGOT: Royce was the first one 'with sword in hand', he challenged the white walker "Dance with me then". In the show there is that bloody tableau of dead bodies and bodyparts and the child which was pinned upon a tree. In the novel there is none of such things, there are no dead bodies or bodyparts and there is no wightified scary girl.

ASOS Samwell I: Here we have the second and until now the last sighting of a white walker, this time a lone rider on a horse. It dismounts and stands on the snow. There is talk of its armour but nothing about a sword or other weapon. Small Paul "unslung the long-hafted axe strapped across his back" and challenges the white walker. He asks why it has hurt the horse, Mawney's horse. Then the sword of the white walker glows. It cuts off the head of the torch Grenn holds. Grenn flings what is left of the torch at the white walker, cursing, "as Small Paul charged in with his axe".

Then Small Paul is killed.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I can't recall and I don't have the books near, but was it the humans or the others who struck first in each case? If we've only seen them twice and they weren't the ones that struck first? It doesn't really scream evil to me. Oh and the idea that they don't negotiate, and can't co-exist?

1) The night's king. I think this puts a kibosh on the claims that they never negotiate. Not only do they do exactly that, they marry humans.

2) Forcing Wildings out? Maynce has been gathering them.

3) Craster's sacrifices? This either a) kills the idea that they don't negotiate. Hard. or c) Craster has just been giving them stuff without any promting on their part. Oh and regardless it demonstrates co-existance.

Also have we seen any giant wights?

ad 2). Mance has been gathering the wildlings to go south not out of a thirst for expansion, but out of desperation. The only reason why he wants to breach the Wall is because he knows that his people can no longer survive beyond it. If you ever read any of Jon's wildling chapters you get a very clear sense that they are driven by despair, not by a thirst for conquering the rest of westeros. They are fleeing. And pray tell, from what could they be fleeing so desperately? Sounds pretty much like "driven out by the Others" to me. (it is of course also possible that it's just the general awfulness of intensified winter and the Others are just a side-effect. See my mercy-killing theory. At any rate, coexistence is obviously no longer possible for the Wildlings).

ad 1, 3) yes, there have been instances of 'cooperation'. But what we've seen so far is more in line with a Quisling/Nazi-thing than with a sustainable arrangement based on mutual benefit and compromise. It's not so much that the Others have found a way to peacefully coexist with humans as that they have somehow managed to corrupt and instrumentalize some of them to get them to sell out their kin - not exactly an argument in favor of non-evilness. The Night-King legend might have been all lies and anti-Other-propaganda, but if the Craster-deal is any indication, I do indeed vote for "Nazi/Quisling" rather than "masters of diplomacy".

I mean, you would not exactly cite Sauron's 'cooperation' with the Nazgul as a promising sign for a diplomatic approach, would you? (Granted, I don't think that the Others are Mordor-levels of evil. I'm sure they will be more complex than that and also more carefully justified in their actions).

[Eyron]

First of all, I don't see the Others as a "force of nature". They have a language, a culture, maybe even some industry to make those swords.. they know what they're doing. In only a couple of years they killed over 95% of all the wildlings . Why? we have seen that the wildlings can live and fight together with another species, the giants, so they would have probably accepted the presence of the Others, but they weren't given that option. So, they kill when they don't have to, that makes them evil all the way!!

Can you give a reference for the bolded part please?

There has been a good 8000 years of peace with the Others wouldn't you say? We don't know why they have come now, or why they stayed away for so long, so we can't claim to know their motives.

The Other that fights Royce was in fact defensive. Waymar Royce is the one who challanges the Other to a fight.

Same with the Other that Sam kills, he did not attack first. Small Paul does though.

The Fist of First Men is correctly attacked by Others and wights, allthough in the books we only see wights attacking and the Others are lurking in the woods during. After the Night's Watch leave the Fist, the Others follow them outside the ring of fire. I believe the attack was orchestrated by the Others but in the books it is not crystal clear.

Killing when they don't have to... Yeah, just like almost every character in the series, shocking behaviour. They remind me of Tywin.

If you want to pretend the Others aren't evil, you need to consider the relationship the Others have with all other sentient species.

Obviously, they have a terrible relationship with humans that has forced a mass exodus of the Free Folk. Include to that the fact that they've also forced an exodus of giants, meaning that they've also been killing and terrorising them too. In addition, they've always warred, in the past, and at present, with the Children of the Forest. That's 0/3.

Now consider that even mankind has managed co-existence with the Children of the Forest and the giants for millenia, and you begin to get an idea of the Other's genocidal tendecies eclipse even that of mankind's. The only examples we have of cooperation between Others and non-Others are the Night's King, so old a tale as to be of dubious accuracy, and Craster's sons, in which case it's not clear exactly what's happening.

The Children always warred with the Others? I did not know that, where can I read that part?

According to Old Nan they appeared for the first time during the long night and have not been around much after that. She could be wrong but we don't know that.

The Children call the Giants their brother and bane, so not always peaceful relations here I assume.

The Others warred with humans for a generation which is the time between birth and having progeny, about 13-16 years in Westeros, and then they were gone for 8000 years give or take a millennia or two.

Sure they were terrible as enemies, but that was a brief period of time forever ago.

Because human societies in ASOIAF have found a way to co-exist with other sentient races (the giants, the COTF) that does not involve genocide.

The Others demonstrably have not.

Would you like to cite the history of the Others the last 8000 years to me, it seems I missed this bolded part.

The Children were almost slaughtered to extinction by the First men first, and then the Andals, the giants are almost extinct too (and according to the song The Last of the Giants, it was because of men).

ETA: I forgot, Leaf says that in the world Men made, there is no place for the Children or any of the Old races, not even the direwolves who will be the last to go.

The Others have negotiated with nobody ever.

Where did you read this? Do you know how the Last Hero saved humans from the long winter? Funny, you and GRRM would be the only ones. Perhaps Parris and his editor knows too of course.

However, I don't think the Others are kind, pleasant or good for humanity, but there is no need to exaggerate or make up false evidence really.

[Neo]

Yes, the Others are evil. You can quibble about "incompatability" and unexplained ulterior motives but they kill anyone and anything they can. The wildlings have lived beyond the Wall for 8,000 years as have the giants but they are all fleeing south to escape certain death.

In all of Jon's chapters with Ygritte and Tormund and Mance where do you ever get a sense of anything but implacable and unrelenting hostility? There is no attempt to coexist or communicate or negotiate only to destroy, Tormund tells Jon, "you killed a dead man? Mance killed a hundred. But how do you fight the cold, how do you fight a white mist? [sic]".

You can play devil's advocate and say its the COTF who made the wights, that men attack first (wrong - read the prologue of AGOT and the scene in ASOS where the Other is stalking the stragglers and kills Small Paul - they aren't coming to chat), that the Long Night is propaganda or a myth and the Others are just another faction but:

The whole story of the Long Night and Azor Ahai, the last hero, the legend of the Prince who was Promised and the War for the Dawn, the chilling scenes in the Prologue, in Mormont's Tower, on the Fist of the First Men, Melisandre's vision of Hardhome in her fires, Cotter Pyke's ominous letter from there "Dead things in the woods, dead things in the water", the whole purpose of the Wall and the Nights' Watch is a pretty big build up from GRRM that these guys are bad news.

Evil doesn't have to mean a mindless zombie and the Others appear to be intelligent and to have both a culture and magic. I expect their explanation to be an interesting one but I don't think it will alter the basic premise from the very start that they are evil.

Surely anyone can see that GRRM makes a point about things not being as simple as 'good' and 'evil'.

If the Others are an uncomplicated, generic, cliched force of all-encompassing 'evil' then it contradicts the complex character building that he has spent five books building up.

[the trees have eyes]

Surely anyone can see that GRRM makes a point about things not being as simple as 'good' and 'evil'.

If the Others are an uncomplicated, generic, cliched force of all-encompassing 'evil' then it contradicts the complex character building that he has spent five books building up.

Yeah, let's just tell Mother Mole and everyone dying at Hardhome to stop bitching about how bad things are becuase GRRM having developed interesting and complex human characters means extermniantion is a nuanced concept open to all kinds of different interpretations.

Dead is dead, surely?

[Eyron]

Yeah, let's just tell Mother Mole and everyone dying at Hardhome to stop bitching about how bad things are becuase GRRM having developed interesting and complex human characters means extermniantion is a nuanced concept open to all kinds of different interpretations.

Dead is dead, surely?

Have you missed the interviews where George says he hates the clichéd mindless evil antagonists and this is something he would never put in a story? (I think he mentioned Sauron at some point)

In his mind the Others are beautiful, elegant, ethereal. If they came to reclaim their lands or fight humans so be it, but we don't know that they want to exterminate all humans. I thought they did too, but then I read up on what really happened at the encounters we know of.

Tormund says to Jon that the real enemy is the cold, the cold that makes it heard to breathe. And his son was killed by the cold, and rose as a wight infront of him. He also says that his trek was followed by Others, that they seemed to take those that strayed or fell behind, they didn't attack the whole group. And as Fantasy said above, we don't know if the cold comes with the Others, or if the Others come when it is cold.

[Summerqueen]

Will lost sight of the Other. He simply doesn't have the vantage to see if the Other had a sword out—in fact, he describes the sword as difficult to see. Royce put both hands on his sword and gave warning. The Other then advanced with sword raised, and Royce raised his sword to meet the Other's. The Other advanced with sword raised. Royce can't meet a sword that isn't coming forward. It seems clear enough to me that the Other was the aggressor here. He could have just stayed in the shadows. He could have heeded Royce's warning and not advanced. He could have come forward with his sword down. The Other did none of those things.

[Vampire Squid]

He could have heeded Royce's warning and not advanced.

How? Others and humans don't speak the same language.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Have you missed the interviews where George says he hates the clichéd mindless evil antagonists and this is something he would never put in a story? (I think he mentioned Sauron at some point)

In his mind the Others are beautiful, elegant, ethereal. If they came to reclaim their lands or fight humans so be it, but we don't know that they want to exterminate all humans. I thought they did too, but then I read up on what really happened at the encounters we know of.

Tormund says to Jon that the real enemy is the cold, the cold that makes it heard to breathe. And his son was killed by the cold, and rose as a wight infront of him. He also says that his trek was followed by Others, that they seemed to take those that strayed or fell behind, they didn't attack the whole group. And as Fantasy said above, we don't know if the cold comes with the Others, or if the Others come when it is cold.

Beautiful and ethereal does not necessarily mean non-evil. But I think that this discussion about morality is a red herring anyway. It is quite possible that the Others are fairly decent as species go, no worse than human at least, and still peaceful coexistence is impossible.

So maybe it's true, maybe it's the cold that is the real enemeny, the cold that cause the Others, not the other way round....I really like that theory, I'm not a fan of unmotivated evil for evil's sake à la Sauron either .... that still excludes the Others as potential allies. They need the Cold and humans can't bear it.

[NotSoSilentSister]

How? Others and humans don't speak the same language.

Well, some things can be inferred from context. Someone shouting and grasping a weapon is a pretty universal way of getting across the message of "Don't come near or I will use this".

[Eyron]

Royce

Will lost sight of the Other. He simply doesn't have the vantage to see if the Other had a sword out—in fact, he describes the sword as difficult to see. Royce put both hands on his sword and gave warning. The Other then advanced with sword raised, and Royce raised his sword to meet the Other's. The Other advanced with sword raised. Royce can't meet a sword that isn't coming forward. It seems clear enough to me that the Other was the aggressor here. He could have just stayed in the shadows. He could have heeded Royce's warning and not advanced. He could have come forward with his sword down. The Other did none of those things.

No, the Other did not raise his sword, he had it in his hand, that is all the text say. It was Royce who said "Dance with me then" and raised his sword. Then the Other halts, and looks at Waymars sword. After this the Other swings his sword.

[FanTasy]

This is in my version of AGOT, Prologue:

Waymar calls out for Will, he is <suddenly wary, his sword in hand>.

A shadow emerges, armor is described, no weapon.

Royce warnes: "Come no farther" and he <threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands.>

The white walker slides forward.<In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen.>

Ser Waymar: "Dance with me then" <He lifts his sword high over his head, defiant.>

The white walker fixes his eyes on Royces sword, held high.

Then Will sees the pale sword, shivering though the air. Ser Waymar meets it with his steel.

I guess the white walker could have gone away, and not fight. So could Royce.