are the others realy that evil?

[NotSoSilentSister]

Hm, it is called a Dream of Spring, so there will at least be hope for a spring to come, and perhaps even signs of it. A dream suggests to me that it has not come yet. I think it could suggest that the Others will return to theirs or be defeated, but that winter will remain a while, it is a natural season after all.

The point is that winter will turn out to be surviveable for humanity in its current condition, so a hypothetically benevolent mission of the Others will be unnecessary.

[the trees have eyes]

The duel is clearly a one-on-one battle. The surrounding Others watch without interfering, only to join in once Royce is beaten. You call this 'butchery' but it can easily be interpreted as putting Royce out of his misery.

GRRM seems to intentionally make things unclear and open to interpretation. I certainly don't think things are as clear-cut and simplistic as the Others being 'evil' as this would pretty much contradict everything he stands for as a fantasy writer.

Yes, the fight is one on one. But the protagonist can easily put Royce out of his misery with one thrust. There is no reason for the otheres to get involved - and to laugh about it - unless they are enjoying it. The fact that he is surrounded by men who join in killing him doesn't sound like an act of mercy. They still intend to kill him - be it a one-on-one or group fight - unless you think there is some other purpose to it? I really can't see it and GRRM wrote the scene to show Royce being caught unawares, surrounded, attacked and when beaten, slaughtered and after that, becoming a wight. didn't look very friendly to me.

It would be just as bad to dismiss those myths as it would be to place blind faith in their reliability.

GRRM has said himself that there is dispute as to their accuracy. They are myths that are steeped in over 8,000 years of history. I think it would be difficult to use them as irrefutable proof about the nature and morality of the Others.

Also, you keep mentioning Hardhome, but we don't actually know what is going on there. It is all very vague at this point.

Yes, I very much doubt Azor Ahai ever plunged a sword through his wife's heart or forged it for forty days and nights or whatever! I'm doubtful he even existed at all. But what I mean is that this residual folk memory (Old Nan's tales) and myth is a very strong one. When backed up by prophecies which very intelligent people take seriously (Aemon, Marwyn, Rhaegar) and the incontrovertible evidence that something hugely momentous actually did happen - otherwise why build something as massive as the Wall? - then to deconstruct the Others into somehting more ambiguous and less hostile doesn't strike a chord with me.

[the trees have eyes]

That said, we don't really know about the sincerity of the COTF's motives when seemingly protecting Bran against the Others - it might well be a just a trick - but the Giants at least seem to be quite sincere about their preference of men. Then again the Giants may be simply mistaken about what's in their best interest. If we don't assume that they are intrinsically more stupid than other races, their preference however should indicate at least a little bit about the Other's potential for peaceful coexistence.

We don't, no, but right from AGOT we have the three-eyed crow warning Bran of a danger in the far north, the land of always winter. The thee-eyed-crow turns out to be a human and the last greenseer who is very much in league with TCOTF. I think we can infer a common purpose in Brynden and TCOTF in wanting Bran to be a champion of the living races against whatever threat or danger is brewing in the far north, the threat that made Bran cry out in his dream in AGOT, that made the three-eyed crow tell him "now do you see why you must live?", and that made him call his direwolf Summer in direct antithesis to that threat.

I think that threat is the Others. I know, I know, I'm Captain Obvious. Whether the threat is much bigger and the Others are only one manifestation of it I doubt, though time will tell, maybe there will be a Great Other to contend with. But hey, GRRM doesn't like the Sauron thing, so what did make Bran cry out?

[NotSoSilentSister]

We don't, no, but right from AGOT we have the three-eyed crow warning Bran of a danger in the far north, the land of always winter. The thee-eyed-crow turns out to be a human and the last greenseer who is very much in league with TCOTF. I think we can infer a common purpose in Brynden and TCOTF in wanting Bran to be a champion of the living races against whatever threat or danger is brewing in the far north, the threat that made Bran cry out in his dream in AGOT, that made the three-eyed crow tell him "now do you see why you must live?", and that made him call his direwolf Summer in direct antithesis to that threat.

I think that threat is the Others. I know, I know, I'm Captain Obvious. Whether the threat is much bigger and the Others are only one manifestation of it I doubt, though time will tell, maybe there will be a Great Other to contend with. But hey, GRRM doesn't like the Sauron thing, so what did make Bran cry out?

Well, the Three-Eyed-Crow could have been lying to Bran ... or misframing things a bit.... "You are a servant of the Great Other meant to lead that host of inhuman ice creatures" would be a bit of hard sell, maybe he wanted Bran to ease into things a bit. Kind of a bait-and-switch-strategy.....

Not tremendously likely though, I guess. Personally, I also expect the COTF to be basically sincere about their agenda. They seem to have more in common with humans than with the Others after all, concerning their tolerance of the cold. Warm-blooded creatures unite! Makes sense for me. (they can still be somewhat sinister in as much as they are obviously planning to make Bran a tree, which might not be in Bran's best interests right now. I think a main plot point will be that all the baby Starks who are now on the verge of losing themselves, will have to reaffirm their Stark idenity and that will have to involve some emancipation from the COTF for Bran).

I also think that the bigger threat, if there is one, won't be some Sauron like pure evil or something. It's probably something more abstract and alien and complicated. Maybe it's just some cosmic event that caused the return of magic and thus the return of the dragons and the harbringers of the Long Night, but there's no actually agency behind it, just something that happened, just random chance.

[Summerqueen]

Royce

No, the Other did not raise his sword, he had it in his hand, that is all the text say. It was Royce who said "Dance with me then" and raised his sword. Then the Other halts, and looks at Waymars sword. After this the Other swings his sword.

Will can't see because he is in a tree until the Other steps out of the shadows with a sword in hand. But his difficulty in seeing seems like an open acknowledgement that he can't see the sword, and specifically how it looks in the moonlight that is falling on it, if it isn't up and center to the Other. He wouldn't be able to see the sword if it were down (moonlight couldn't fall on it) or at his side(it would be completely in shadow). At least, this seems obvious to me, but I admit that the scene could be read differently, as this isn't spelled out.perhaps GRRM doesn't really think about light and vantage angles?

[Lamech]

Hardhome was first destroyed with fire, and the current people are eating their dead. The first is very clearly not the others, and the second is simple starvation. Those people are dying without any help from the others.

After the Fist of the first Men the survivors are fleeing to safety. No one stops because if they stop and fall behind outside the ring of torches they die. Sam's pov is "every now and then a terrible sceam rang out from behind [sic]". It's pretty obvious if you fall behind you die and when Gren, Small Paul and Sam do fall behind it's an Other that comes upon them. Why do you think the Other approaches them? To help? He kills Small Paul easily enough and without trying to fight defensively at all, it's a straightforward one thrust kill and he lops the head off Gren's torch. It's pretty obvious the Others and / or wights are stalking the NW, picking off the stragglers. Seems really strange to me to think their intentions are something different. It's really looking for something that isn't there.

We aren't sure what happens, but Sam's group wasn't attacked. And screams would likely happen if the others were dragging them to saftey, or even just walked by. As they would happen if the people decided to try and attack the others. We aren't sure why the other approached Sam's group but again, he didn't attack.

What we've seen so far is more in keeping with knights who kill peasents who try and attack them. Others get attacked by someone who has "no chance", and Other kills the attacker.

[danm_999]

The Children always warred with the Others? I did not know that, where can I read that part?

• The Children fought against the Others in their first appearance on the side of men during the Long Night.
  
• Since then, the Children provided the Night's Watch with obsidian daggers every year, as Sam finds from ancient Night's Watch records at Castle Black. Obsidian daggers are used to kill Others, and the fact they're continuing to do this after the War for the Dawn proves which side of the conflict they're on.
  
• Since their return, the Children have been supporting Bloodraven, who also opposes the Wights and the Others, demonstrated by his first scene with Bran as the Three Eyed Crow, where he points him to the Lands of Always Winter, and tells him that is why he must live, because "Winter is Coming".
  
• Bloodraven wargs Mormont's raven and gives Jon critical advice, for example; how to kill the wight that attacks Mormont (Burn! Burn! Burn!).
  
• The Children's cave wards off Wights, and Leaf burns the Wights pursuing Bran's group.
  

The Children call the Giants their brother and bane, so not always peaceful relations here I assume.

That's my whole point though, they have in part an antagonistic and cooperative relationship. Like with men, they're capable of conflict, but they're also capable of co-existence.

The Others have not demonstrated an ability to co-exist with any other race, except through the extremely unclear baby-sacrifice with Craster (and then, it's not clear if the Others are leaving Craster alone for this reason, or if they're bothering with him at all yet).

Of the four sentient races in ASOIAF, they're the only race to have failed to do this. In fact, they're appearance historically and presently causes the formation of a coalition of every single other sentient race against them.

Would you like to cite the history of the Others the last 8000 years to me, it seems I missed this bolded part.

The history of the Others stretches from the War of the Dawn, to their reappearance in the present. There's no evidence of them treating in that.

The Children were almost slaughtered to extinction by the First men first, and then the Andals,

The Children and men actually made peace long before either side was wiped out, hence the Pact at the Isles of Faces. The men learnt magic from the Children and adopted their religion and spiritual practices.

After the Andals, Leaf states the Children made their withdrawal into the forests of the North, so they were only driven from the South (and even then, maybe not entirely, the Ghost of High Heart is likely one of the Children).

They've survived for 12000 years, which proves humans are very bad at wiping them out if that's they're intent.

Nor the giants are almost extinct too (and according to the song The Last of the Giants, it was because of men).

And there's a song about a bear and a maiden fare that's got sexual subtext.

Same rule as the Children; giants have survived for millennia, there's no coordinated campaign in place to wipe them out, or never participate in diplomacy with them. They cooperate quite ably with the Free Folk in a way the Others don't. Jon manages to get Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun to work with the Night's Watch, but I doubt he could do the same of an Other.

They make common cause with Mance Rayder for goodness sake! The fact they're siding with humans against the Others demonstrates how humans are the lesser of two evils.

ETA: I forgot, Leaf says that in the world Men made, there is no place for the Children or any of the Old races, not even the direwolves who will be the last to go.

The Children have been living, by Leaf's words, in that cave for a thousand, thousand years, and have never been numerous. They once lived all over Westeros, but were driven North by the Andals, but that doesn't explain why they'd continue to go extinct beyond that point, as they're no longer interacting with men.

We know men aren't breaking in there and killing them, since men haven't seen Children openly for thousands of years, so men aren't responsible for what's killing the Children, the changing world is.

Their type of magic is dying in the world (which is why she also talks about unicorns, mammoths and dire-wolves; it's not about genocide, it's about a new era) and giants and Children are magical creatures. She's not referring to an actual campaign by humans to kill Children.

Where did you read this? Do you know how the Last Hero saved humans from the long winter? Funny, you and GRRM would be the only ones. Perhaps Parris and his editor knows too of course.

The account is in the text. Sam finds a record of how the "Last Hero" drove the Others back using a dragonsteel blade, which they could not stand against. Then, in consultation with the Children, men raised the Wall and created the Night's Watch to prevent an invasion ever again. No peace treaty mentioned. The militarisation of unprecedented scale suggests no pact was reached.

See, there are records of the treaty made between men and the Children of the Forest 12000 years ago (the Long Night was 8000 years ago). We know where it was made, we know it's details, we know some of the conditions, so it's not a "lost to the mists of time" issue if Westeros can remember a treaty from 4000 years earlier.

However, I don't think the Others are kind, pleasant or good for humanity, but there is no need to exaggerate or make up false evidence really.

Sorry, this is a ridiculous accusation given your entire post is basically speculating that maybe the Others made all these secret peace treaties with races that we've never heard of, and for some reason have never been recorded or talked about.

And I'm the one making up false evidence?

[Lamech]

There's no diplomatic history then. Hence the Others have demonstrably never practised diplomacy.

...

The races of COTF and giants made peace, and both these races survived and cooperated with men. The Others have not done this.

There are records of the treaty made between men and the COTF 12000 years ago. There aren't any of a peace made between the Others and humanity. Not to mention the Night's Watch and the Wall demonstrate the Long Night ended antagonistically.

Except for the Night's King and Craster. Which means that the Other's do make peace, and they do negotiate. At least when people don't attack them on sight.

[Zabuza]

Since we know that seasons are extended in this world, what about the arctic seasons? Could the land of always winter have a equivalent of 6 months of darkness, something like 600 years of darkness? Like a long-night?

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Don't they laugh mockingly before killing Weymar Royce in the prologue to AGOT? If so, that's not nice.

Yes, they toy with people. They did the same to Small Paul and Sam.

To me this shows that they have no respect for human life, they're just future wights.

[danm_999]

Except for the Night's King and Craster. Which means that the Other's do make peace, and they do negotiate. At least when people don't attack them on sight.

Yeah I've edited my post to include Craster, but we don't ever get confirmation as to whether or not the baby sacrifice is actually related to the Others at all (except through the TV show, but that's not exactly canon, since it shows inconsistencies like Others appearing during the day, or Daenerys being actually fireproof).

Jon assumes Craster has been left alone thus far because he's leaving his sons out in the woods, which keeps the Others away. This is a correlation not casuation fallacy, or put in a funnier way by the Simpsons:

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm

Lisa: That's specious reasoning. By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: Oh, how does it work?

Lisa: It doesn't work.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.

Homer: Uh-huh.

Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?

The Others are the tigers, and Craster's abandoning sons in the woods is the tiger rock. Considering that Craster has been dumping his sons in the woods loooong before the present (he's an old dude, and he has no sons, so it's an ongoing practice), I'm afraid I can't agree with Jon's assessment until more evidence is revealed.

As for the Night's King:

• It blurs the line between legend and history. They don't even know the identity of the guy.
  
• It's never explicitly confirmed the woman he fell in love with was an Other, merely that her skin was white and cold, and eyes blue.
  
• If she was an Other, how did the Night's King get her into the Nightfort? Others can't pass that barrier.
  
• It may just be a tale to demonise Lord Commanders who are faithless with their vows, and over the millenia grew into a supernatural tale, as oral histories are liable to do that.
  

Unlike the evidence I gave above, which is largely based on documents Sam finds, or events we observe first hand in the books, or ancient history based on written evidence or things like the Isles of Faces, the Night's King is an oral history, there's no confirmation the Others are involved. It might be true, but it seems very bad evidence until we get more information.

[Mulled Wino]

They most certainly are evil to your average human.

[Mulled Wino]

Except for the Night's King and Craster. Which means that the Other's do make peace, and they do negotiate. At least when people don't attack them on sight.

You mean like with the wildling horde?

[Lykos]

What we know from the text:

The White Walkers speak a language Waymar Royce didn´t understand.

The White Walkers killed two humans when they were attacked, Waymar Royce and Small Paul.

Arya allone killed five and I´m not sure she´s evil.

*****

Sam thinks that the Others come when it gets dark or else it gets dark when the Others come - same with the cold. My question is - does death come with the Others or else do the Others come when there is death?

[Lamech]

Sam thinks that the Others come when it gets dark or else it gets dark when the Others come - same with the cold. My question is - does death come with the Others or else do the Others come when there is death?

Right. The others might come whenever the killing frost comes out, or people start dying to wights for whatever reason. (They hunt wights, they like the cold ect.) Or they might cause the cold. The first option gives you somewhat alien creatures, who might not be able to coexist with humanity, but haven't done any evil so far. The second option gives you the enemy of humanity, threatening the world.

[Mulled Wino]

What we know from the text:

The White Walkers speak a language Waymar Royce didn´t understand.

The White Walkers killed two humans when they were attacked, Waymar Royce and Small Paul.

Arya allone killed five and I´m not sure she´s evil.

*****

Sam thinks that the Others come when it gets dark or else it gets dark when the Others come - same with the cold. My question is - does death come with the Others or else do the Others come when there is death?

We know the make Wights.

[Harle The Handsome]

I'd say their as evil as Zombies. Reanimated Corpses that kill with no prejudice, as far as i've read (part way through aFFC) no one's spoken with an other, so It seems as if they are mindless, however that doesn't mean they are or aren't.

To clarify, the others are not undead, but can reanimate and enslave the dead. They are sentient beings biologically unlike any other humanoid species.

Coldhands' eyes don't glow blue. The Others' eyes do. Assuming Coldhands is controlled by Bloodraven or one of the Children (or is self-willed and just on their side), there's a clear difference between him and other wights, and a clear similarity between hostile wights and the Others.

It has been speculated that Coldhands might actually be the Night King. I am not sure but it does sound plausible.

[FanTasy]

I think that threat is the Others. I know, I know, I'm Captain Obvious. Whether the threat is much bigger and the Others are only one manifestation of it I doubt, though time will tell, maybe there will be a Great Other to contend with. But hey, GRRM doesn't like the Sauron thing, so what did make Bran cry out?

GRRM is not telling ... on another thread I suggested Bran could be as terrified as he was because the three-eyed crow showed him what he (Bran) is to become. Bran looked into the heart of winter, and maybe he saw himself there - and he didn't like what he saw or what he became.

It is right after this vision Bran names Summer. Apparently this vision was needed to understand why he should name his wolf as he did.

[FanTasy]

We know the make Wights.

Could you please give some reference in the text for this? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested where this is stated in the novels.

[Swordsaint]

I wouldn't call what the Other's have with ole Crastor a co-existence. Think Old Nan stories and you'll know how that deal go's......