Best trained soldiers?

[Free Northman]

Equal army numbers? How many armoured knights? Are the men Northern or Westermen or Dornish or others? Clearly they dont have a good general. Mostly foot, with archers and freeriders? Any sellswords?

All this aside the Dothraki would probably win, although their lack of armour remains a big question mark for me.

Agreed. It all depends on the tactics adopted. If the Westerosi knights charge the Dothraki head on, the Westerosi are toast.

If they draw them to defensive positions with stakes and knights with plate armor and heavy shields protecting the longbowmen, then it will get interesting.

[The Promised Prince]

My work here is done.

[Free Northman]

Oh really? Would you agree that Ned Stark has knowledge of almost all of the military powers of westeros? Now why would Ned tell Robert that he will only fear the Dothraki once they cross the narrow sea?

Come on. You're taking that statement to mean that the Westerosi have no hope against the Dothraki?

Ned is a cautious man. The Dothraki are a threat. If they land in Westeros, the best case scenario is that they will kill tens of thousands of common folk, burning villages, towns and holdfasts for months before a decisive battle can take place in which they are defeated. Of course they should be feared.

[Fire and Blood!]

Overall though, I think it would vary from generation to generation. In the time of Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf who was always at war the North would have had a much more effective army than in the time of Edrick Snowbeard, who grew so feeble that he couldn't even defend his own shores from the Slavers from the Stepstones..

Then came his son Brandon Ice Eyes, and stealth marches in the depths of Winter, the hanging of Slavers entrails on Heartrees. At other times, the North was raided by Reavers from the Three Sisters. And then followed the Rape of Sisterton, where the North suddenly got its shit together.

Under Tywin Lannister the Westerland armies were well drilled and in top shape, but under his father they were probably useless.

It all depends on the Lord in charge.

I agree with that.An army's strength depends largely on it's commander.

Personaly I would say the Golden Company or the Unsullied as they are professional soldiers unlike the majority of westerosi armies.

[Batman]

My work here is done.

First thing that came to my mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecW0B5rELyo

[Scipio Africanus]

There are many conditions under which the Dothraki would win a battle. It is the task of the Westerosi commander to ensure that these conditions are not met.

In short - Mace Tyrell against Khal Drogo - I give it to the Dothraki.

Randall Tarly or Eddard Stark against Khal Drogo - the Dothraki are toast.

I'm sorry but if Dothraki were really like the Mongols it wouldn't matter what commander they faced, they'd be toast. Not only were the Mongols experts in cavalry warfare but they were experts at siegecraft as well and made use of blackpowder weaponry.

Fortunately the Dothraki are nothing like the Mongols so yeah, massed pike formations on high ground and let them charge into your lines, all the while your own archers peppering them with arrows.

Even Mace Tyrell could figure that one out and the Dothraki are about as dumb as bricks or so they appear in the books.

[Talleyrand]

I don't think they could fire more than 10 arrows in an open field. By the time they release their first the dothraki is already charging at them at full speed on horseback, of course westerosi archers would only release their first arrows when the dothraki enters the longbows' effective range which is about 160 meters which is a very short distance for any man to reach while on horseback plus once the westerosi archers are in range of them the dothraki of course would release their own volley of arrows.

Its an amateur's idea of a charge that you just gallop straight at an enemy. That knackers your horses and buggers your're formation. You only go full pelt for the final wee leg, the rest of the time you are building up speed and making sure you're still maintain a line. Longbows can hit them plenty of times as they do this.

Well, I would say the Unsullied, yes, they practice all their life, with all types of weapons, sword, The Mongols crushed the medieval Hungarian and Polish armies, so why not the Dothraki??

Because the Mongols had heavy cavalry, siege engines and a tactical genius as a leader (Subatai) The Dothraki have none of these.

[Jon Flowers]

The Dothraki and the Unsullied are unparalleled at what they do but both lack the flexibility to win a large set piece battle against a composite force under an able commander. The Dothraki's potential can be seen in the Mongol invasions of Europe and China and yet they plainly lack the nous that the Mongols possesed, as seen at Qohor. The Unsullied are closest to Alexanders phalangites, light armor, small shields and relieant entirely upon cohesion and discipline for effectiveness; and therefore unable to advance over broken ground or stand unsupported against a more mobile force with a preponderance of missile troops. The real edge in any battle of roughly equal forces would be with the superior commander.

[Jon Flowers]

Its an amateur's idea of a charge that you just gallop straight at an enemy. That knackers your horses and buggers your're formation. You only go full pelt for the final wee leg, the rest of the time you are building up speed and making sure you're still maintain a line. Longbows can hit them plenty of times as they do this.

Because the Mongols had heavy cavalry, siege engines and a tactical genius as a leader (Subatai) The Dothraki have none of these.

Absolutely. Also, the Westerosi clearly have the tactical awareness to protect their bowmen with stakes, caltrops and spear formations as seen in the books.

[Gurkhal]

As unusual as it is I think that I will have to support the Free Northman on this one.

As I see it the Dothraki will have an ok chance against a Westerosi field army, and that army might be forced to engage the Dothraki on the open field to prevent them from destroying the countryside. Just as the Riverlords were forced to spread out by Gregor and Robb and Tywin were forced to return to their home territories to defend them against the attacks upon them, the Westerosi would probably be forced into a field battle when the nomads are ravaging, plundering and raping at will across the continent. If the Westerosi are ready for the Dothraki and have a good commander then the Dothraki would be hard pressed to win, but if the nomads manages to arrive before the Westerosi are ready for battle it could well turn into an extermination battle for the Westerosi army.

Due to the terrain of Westeros which would probably work against the Dothraki everywhere except possibly in the Reach, my money is on the Westerosi armies as I wonder how effective the horsemen would be in forests or where they could hope to find grasslands enough for their mounts.

Something that would be very interesting to see would be Drogo vs Robb Stark. But maybe that's just me.

[Scipio Africanus]

As unusual as it is I think that I will have to support the Free Northman on this one.

Just as the Riverlords were forced to spread out by Gregor and Robb and Tywin were forced to return to their home territories to defend them against the attacks upon them, the Westerosi would probably be forced into a field battle when the nomads are ravaging, plundering and raping at will across the continent.

Wasn't it mentioned by someone in the book that it wasn't wise that Edmure Tully sent his troops all over the shop to protect the smallfolk beause it left those troops vulnerable to be picked off one by one?

At any rate as far as I interpet things the situation in the Riverlands quickly turned into siege warfare. Which is how the majority of medieval warfare tended to be fought.

Dothraki may in the beginning be succesful but once the smallfolk evacuate and there's little in supplies left to plunder, the Dothraki would be forced into siege warfare which unlike the Mongols they're not capable of.

[Barty]

Agreed. It all depends on the tactics adopted. If the Westerosi knights charge the Dothraki head on, the Westerosi are toast.

If they draw them to defensive positions with stakes and knights with plate armor and heavy shields protecting the longbowmen, then it will get interesting.

Why?? Assuming equal number of knights and dothraki, its the dothraki who are toast. Knights begin training at a very early age and train for the rest of their lives. Plus the Armor makes for a huge advantage, the Dothraki arakh is a more of a slashing weapon and slashing weapons were never effective against plate or even chainmail.

[Swordsaint]

Depends on the situation, but for all terrain I'd take the North Men any day of the week. "It was the dragons they bowed to" Dorne wasn't a real army. They used gorilla tactics and the mountains. I think of it like a boxing fight were one boxer is clearly stronger then the other. The [weaker] boxer at that point doesn't fight to win, he fights to survive. The North men even with smaller numbers have always kicked ass. They know how to ride horses (except Manderly haha) fire bows, have great scouts, can sword fight, siege, defend castles, use land to their advantage, etc.

Dothraki are basically the Iron Born of the land (bullies). They talk a great game, but they've never actually defeated a real fighting army that I can remember reading about.

Stormlanders are great, but as Cat said "They're the Knights of summer"

[Jon Flowers]

Why?? Assuming equal number of knights and dothraki, its the dothraki who are toast. Knights begin training at a very early age and train for the rest of their lives. Plus the Armor makes for a huge advantage, the Dothraki arakh is a more of a slashing weapon and slashing weapons were never effective against plate or even chainmail.

That sounds about right considering the way in which the Dothraki fight. If they fought like the Mongols however, knights would never catch then. And you're right about the chainail as well. With bodkin type arrowheads, a bow can be very effective against chainmail, but sabers never will be.

[E-Ro]

I disagree with anyone who says dothraki, we are not talking about mongols here, we are talking about barbaric fools. First of all they dont use armor, second the weapons they use are useless against plate the arakh is a curved sword plate is immune to slashes, plate can withstand a longbow im sure it can withstand whatever shortbows the dothraki are using from horesback. They lack any discipline discipline trumps skill, ferocity, it is very important. My vote goes to a westerosi army, be it tywins, robbs, or the stormlords.

[Lord Hound]

Battle of Qohor. Enough said.

[Lord Hound]

Plus Jorah killed a bloodrider, supposedly one of the best warriors in a khalasar.

But he's got armor on! - Hot Pie

[peterbound]

USMC

/thread

[Inara]

Best soldier training - Unsullied without a doubt. Man to man, an Unsullied trumps any other single soldier anywhere else.

Army to army - The Golden Company. They've got the best of both worlds - great battle commanders, a mix of several elements (heavy cavalry, archers, elephants), and disciplined men. Their only "problem" is a lack of numbers, so I don't know how they'd fare against the combined forces of Westeros. But in a single battle, definitely the Golden Company.

I'm not sure why so many people assume that northmen are tougher due to the harsh living conditions. Unless it's winter, the North is perfectly livable. Plus sometimes years and years will go by before winter hits, so a good portion of the fighting population (those in the late teens and early 20s) haven't faced the sub-Arctic conditions that we are starting to see in DwD. And if northmen are so tough in part due to winter, than it can be argued that Dornishmen are just as tough due to the harsh desert (which, unlike winter, never goes away), or the Iron Islands, where everything is harsh.

Robb won battles thanks to good strategic acumen and the fact that Tywin Lannister was too arrogant to take the wolf pup seriously, but it's a stretch to assume Robb and his men would have had the same results against Tarly or Stannis. I'm not saying that it's not possible, but I don't get this blanket assumption I see on occasion that northern soldiers > rest of Westeros.

[E-Ro]

No, robb was so succesful becaus he knew what he was doing and had some top notch counsellors, he was able to gauge his opponents strengths and weaknesses and exploit them.

Really the dothraki are the biggest joke, they charged a phalanx head on, seriously? Cavalry excells at taking out rigid formations that are easily flanked and the dothraki failed, what a bunch of morons.