Syrio Forel, dancing master, mistake maker

[Masamune]

Why do people jump to the conclusion that Syrio is dead when there isn't a shred of proof?

[Errant Bard]

You are playing dumb. You know why. The shreds of proof are numerous.

[nQthing]

id love for syrio to be alive. but i doubt it. he shows more honor in that one scene than most characters do in the entire series

the only thing working for syrio to be alive is- trant would never admit to anyone that a 'dancing master' defeated him and got away

[Masamune]

You are playing dumb. You know why. The shreds of proof are numerous.

Ready when you are.

[Aegon's Landing]

I see Trant being the type that would never admit getting his ass kicked with a broken wooden sword, for sure. Even if Syrio was a FM, the purpose of the SF ID was fulfilled when Arya escaped...that identity will never be heard from again, and as good as dead anyway. It's fun to think there is a link between SF and JH, but I don't see GRRM going with that program...IMO.

[Errant Bard]

Ready when you are.

• Two men walk in a room and fight, we see only one alive and totally unharmed afterwards, and it's not Syrio.
  
• Syrio doesn't actually appear at all afterwards in AGOT nor in the four following books.
  
• We are shown Syrio unarmed having to use his stick to actually parry. The stick is gone with that parry, what will he do next he needs to parry?
  
• The whole scene works to show us Arya's lesson: "see with your eyes". That means not being blinded by your expectations. When Arya is told to leave, she sees: Syrio is going to be toast, so she runs and our PoV goes with her.
  
• The whole Red Keep was closed. Syrio cannot walk through walls.
  
• We have two good demonstrations of armoured versus elite unarmoured guys, in Jorah versus bloodriders and Barristan versus Krazz. Armour wins, even when the unarmoured guy is actually armed. Bronn versus Egen... heh, bronn not only was armed but also was lightly armoured and had a buckler and a statue... and his opponent didn't get out unharmed. Also, coincidentally, Krazz & co can make short work of unarmoured, poorly trained people like the gold cloaks.
  
• Cersei knows he interfered. Then they look only for a girl alone, and then assume she died in the streets of KL. Really, that's strange assumption if there is a known adult protecting the girl that managed to escape.
  
• Did I say he did not resurface for five books? because he did not.

You can play disingenuous all you like, but all you have is claiming that anything not officially confirmed must be false, which is a fallacy in itself, and cannot stack against the "shreds" of proof existing to point at his demise. Some of us don't need to have everything fed to them before drawing conclusions that seem the most probable.

I see Trant being the type that would never admit getting his ass kicked with a broken wooden sword, for sure.

Yet Cersei knows he got stopped by a "dancing master". I'm not sure Trant really cares, or Cersei, after that dancing master died. If Trant cared, Cersei would either not know or would believe he was not a dancing master. (though of course italian masters from the renaissance often did both dancing and dueling lessons)

Even if Syrio was a FM, the purpose of the SF ID was fulfilled when Arya escaped...

That would be ludicrous to suggest that FM know the future with enough precision to plant a guy in advance so Arya can escape, but not enough to spare her stuff like, I don't know, Gregor Clegane capturing her, which is worse that a Trant capture, and don't actually make her leave with them before the coup takes place (or don't help Ned, when they are at it).

[King of the Road]

I'd love to see Syrio be revealed as either Jaqen or The Kindly Man. It could happen, we never saw the body, and it does sound like a GRRM plot device.

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking...

[Mulled Wino]

If Forel escaped, he would have to seriously maim or kill trant WITH NO WEAPON AS HIS STICK WAS DESTROYED. Trant was not dead or maimed, therefore, Syrio is most likely deceased.

[Michael Snow]

I suppos any time a character's death happens off screen, a certain percentage of their fans will hold out hope that they're still alive. Makes sense, since GRRM has pulled so many sneaky returns and not-quite-deads on us. But yeah, looks like Syrio is dead.

[Masamune]

1. Yet we hear no word from Trant or anyone else connected in KL about Syrio's death nor any other evidence whatsoever.

2. And? That's not PROOF that he's dead. It's proof that GRRM hasn't brought him back into the fold yet.

3. I would wager this isn't the first time the First Sword of Braavos has ever been caught in a bind without his blade.

4. I would object with that interpretation. Syrio tells Arya in his little parable that admittedly while there were greater and stronger swordsmen than himself, it was his 'seeing' that allowed him to become the First Sword of Braavos. Arya missed the point...which is what happens when you have a 10 year-old unreliable narrator.

5. Yet Arya was able to escape.

6. That wasn't a problem for Syrio against Trant's men.

7. And this would be based on Trant's account of proceedings, correct?

8. See 2.

You can play disingenuous all you like, but all you have is claiming that anything not officially confirmed must be false, which is a fallacy in itself, and cannot stack against the "shreds" of proof existing to point at his demise. Some of us don't need to have everything fed to them before drawing conclusions that seem the most probable.

Except the first rule of fiction: no body no death. Why do you think that's become such a running joke with ASOIAF now? You're entitled to believe Syrio died but I see no evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he's a goner. GRRM has had plenty of opportunities both in and out of the books to confirm Syrio's death and he hasn't taken a single one. All you have is circumstantial evidence, at best.

[Michael Snow]

Case in point, ^ this guy! You must really like Syrio. Sure, I'll grant it's possible Syrio is still alive. But it seems incredibly unlikely at this point.

[richard_ba]

GRRM is very direct towards death, if we see mention there is a probability, but if there is body, then it is death

[Targaryen Northman]

syrio killed him and put on his face

[StarkWhite]

• Two men walk in a room and fight, we see only one alive and totally unharmed afterwards, and it's not Syrio.
  
• Syrio doesn't actually appear at all afterwards in AGOT nor in the four following books.
  
• We are shown Syrio unarmed having to use his stick to actually parry. The stick is gone with that parry, what will he do next he needs to parry?
  
• The whole scene works to show us Arya's lesson: "see with your eyes". That means not being blinded by your expectations. When Arya is told to leave, she sees: Syrio is going to be toast, so she runs and our PoV goes with her.
  
• The whole Red Keep was closed. Syrio cannot walk through walls.
  
• We have two good demonstrations of armoured versus elite unarmoured guys, in Jorah versus bloodriders and Barristan versus Krazz. Armour wins, even when the unarmoured guy is actually armed. Bronn versus Egen... heh, bronn not only was armed but also was lightly armoured and had a buckler and a statue... and his opponent didn't get out unharmed. Also, coincidentally, Krazz & co can make short work of unarmoured, poorly trained people like the gold cloaks.
  
• Cersei knows he interfered. Then they look only for a girl alone, and then assume she died in the streets of KL. Really, that's strange assumption if there is a known adult protecting the girl that managed to escape.
  
• Did I say he did not resurface for five books? because he did not.

You can play disingenuous all you like, but all you have is claiming that anything not officially confirmed must be false, which is a fallacy in itself, and cannot stack against the "shreds" of proof existing to point at his demise. Some of us don't need to have everything fed to them before drawing conclusions that seem the most probable.

Yet Cersei knows he got stopped by a "dancing master". I'm not sure Trant really cares, or Cersei, after that dancing master died. If Trant cared, Cersei would either not know or would believe he was not a dancing master. (though of course italian masters from the renaissance often did both dancing and dueling lessons)

That would be ludicrous to suggest that FM know the future with enough precision to plant a guy in advance so Arya can escape, but not enough to spare her stuff like, I don't know, Gregor Clegane capturing her, which is worse that a Trant capture, and don't actually make her leave with them before the coup takes place (or don't help Ned, when they are at it).

None of that is proof. It's pure conjecture. I don't know if he's dead or alive but I prefer to think we haven't heard the last of him. By the way you're pretty cocky and Not that I think you should care, I wanted to say I find it quite unappealing. There, I feel better

[StarkWhite]

syrio killed him and put on his face

Great theory! I'm going with that.

[Mulled Wino]

1. Yet we hear no word from Trant or anyone else connected in KL about Syrio's death nor any other evidence whatsoever.

2. And? That's not PROOF that he's dead. It's proof that GRRM hasn't brought him back into the fold yet.

3. I would wager this isn't the first time the First Sword of Braavos has ever been caught in a bind without his blade.

4. I would object with that interpretation. Syrio tells Arya in his little parable that admittedly while there were greater and stronger swordsmen than himself, it was his 'seeing' that allowed him to become the First Sword of Braavos. Arya missed the point...which is what happens when you have a 10 year-old unreliable narrator.

5. Yet Arya was able to escape.

6. That wasn't a problem for Syrio against Trant's men.

7. And this would be based on Trant's account of proceedings, correct?

8. See 2.

Except the first rule of fiction: no body no death. Why do you think that's become such a running joke with ASOIAF now? You're entitled to believe Syrio died but I see no evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he's a goner. GRRM has had plenty of opportunities both in and out of the books to confirm Syrio's death and he hasn't taken a single one. All you have is circumstantial evidence, at best.

4) she missed the point at first. He explained it go her and she clearly figured it out.

Much more evidence exists that points toward his death. Obviously there's an outside chance he's still alive, but even GrrM has to draw the line somewhere.

If he took my op advice, id have a different stance.

Oh and im sure the first sword of braavos was caught w/o a weapon before, not sure how many times he was without one vs a dude in full armor. Big difference.

[Errant Bard]

Masamune: you're being ridiculous. You claim you don't understand why people come to some conclusions when there isn't a shred of proof, I provide some of those shreds of proof that make people come to that conclusion and all you can do is plug your ears and shout "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU", metaphorically speaking.

The defense that because everything is possible, then we can toss away any sort of logical thinking, or deduction based on the elements we have is so out there that I will ignore you before you start spouting stuff about how pigs fly in ASOIAF because we were not shown that they do not.

None of that is proof. It's pure conjecture.

No, it is pure cold facts, from which conclusions can be drawn on the probability of one scenario or another. Happens Syrio dying is way more plausible given those elements, except if you are willing to jump through hoops to find some farfetched theory with no relevance for the narrative, just so some minor support character can "live" past his narrative usefulness and ruin his exit scene.

[valyrian_steel]

Syrio is 100% dead there is no doubt about it I asked several times in the other thread for proof that he and the FM were the same person and nothing of use was given. The guy is dead and people have to learn to live with it. Him being alive is about as ridiculous as the "Ned is alive" theory that is out there.

As for the fight, Syrio wouldn't have had a chance against Trant with any sword not even his own Bravo sword. He simply was trying to distract the men long enough for Arya to escape which was successful.

• Two men walk in a room and fight, we see only one alive and totally unharmed afterwards, and it's not Syrio.
  
• Syrio doesn't actually appear at all afterwards in AGOT nor in the four following books.
  
• We are shown Syrio unarmed having to use his stick to actually parry. The stick is gone with that parry, what will he do next he needs to parry?
  
• The whole scene works to show us Arya's lesson: "see with your eyes". That means not being blinded by your expectations. When Arya is told to leave, she sees: Syrio is going to be toast, so she runs and our PoV goes with her.
  
• The whole Red Keep was closed. Syrio cannot walk through walls.
  
• We have two good demonstrations of armoured versus elite unarmoured guys, in Jorah versus bloodriders and Barristan versus Krazz. Armour wins, even when the unarmoured guy is actually armed. Bronn versus Egen... heh, bronn not only was armed but also was lightly armoured and had a buckler and a statue... and his opponent didn't get out unharmed. Also, coincidentally, Krazz & co can make short work of unarmoured, poorly trained people like the gold cloaks.
  
• Cersei knows he interfered. Then they look only for a girl alone, and then assume she died in the streets of KL. Really, that's strange assumption if there is a known adult protecting the girl that managed to escape.
  
• Did I say he did not resurface for five books? because he did not.
  

You can play disingenuous all you like, but all you have is claiming that anything not officially confirmed must be false, which is a fallacy in itself, and cannot stack against the "shreds" of proof existing to point at his demise. Some of us don't need to have everything fed to them before drawing conclusions that seem the most probable.

Yet Cersei knows he got stopped by a "dancing master". I'm not sure Trant really cares, or Cersei, after that dancing master died. If Trant cared, Cersei would either not know or would believe he was not a dancing master. (though of course italian masters from the renaissance often did both dancing and dueling lessons)

That would be ludicrous to suggest that FM know the future with enough precision to plant a guy in advance so Arya can escape, but not enough to spare her stuff like, I don't know, Gregor Clegane capturing her, which is worse that a Trant capture, and don't actually make her leave with them before the coup takes place (or don't help Ned, when they are at it).

U cant put forth the supposition that Syrio is dead because there is no proof he is a live. Proof cuts both ways. What do we actually know?

1. Syrio was alive when Arya and her POV left the room.

2. At the time Arya left, Syrio had been disarmed.

3. Trant and the others had been sent to get Arya not to kill the dancing master. This cuts both ways as they also have no reason to keep him alive.

4. Syrio is not mentioned again which is no proof either way. When Martin leaves something open ended it is my experience that he has a reason.

5. Another man, Jaqen Hagar appears soon after Syrio disappears and both men have ties to Bravos.

6. If Syrio had been captured alive he would have ended up in the cells.

7. Jaqem came from the cells.

8. Jaqem knows that Hari is Arya Stark of Winterfell

The fact that Syrio believes the best way treat with Death is to tell him Not Today indicates to me he would have tried to survive. Trant had all the advantage when we left the scene. He likely either killed or knocked Syrio unconscious. Syrio might have also ran, as Trant in his heavy plate was unlikely to pursue, only to be captured by other guard less blood thirsty. U also have to consider how a FM, who is both a skilled assassin and master of disguise ended up in the cells to begin with. We may never know the truth.

[Mulled Wino]

They weren't sent to kill Syrio but when he kills or maims 5 Lannister guards, dont you think the mission changes?

[A wilding]

They weren't sent to kill Syrio but when he kills or maims 5 Lannister guards, dont you think the mission changes?

And how many other Stark retainers were not killed? Outright non combatants such as Varyon Poole and Septa Mordane didn't survive.