How did the female characters in GRRM books inspire the most...shall we say fervor?

[Fantôme]

She frames it as a question because she's still afraid of him, but we know, Sansa knows, and Tyrion knows that she means NEVER. That's why he climbs off the bed and talks about whores being there for him. Tyrion doesn't give Sansa permission to not sleep with him - don't be preposterous. It's Sansa's statement that makes Tyrion react the way he does. He still wants her to come to him during the marriage and bring her joys, sorrows and lust as he puts it, but he knows she won't. That is defiance.

That's actually exactly what he does. He tells her she's not forced to have sex with him, I'm sorry but it's exactly what it is.What he wants is irrelevant. He clearly gives her a choice.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

You know what Sansa is? I normal middle school school. We know her, we can empathize with her, we understand she is in an awful situation, but what has she done? Most of her acts have been driven by self-motivations. Speaking up for Dontos and couple other things were nice gestures but she is yet to really put herself on the line the way Cat did, the way Arya did, the way Dany did, the way the Dornish women do.

I think this is probably the core of the reasonable criticism for Sansa. She's a realistic portrayal of a little girl living the life she's lived. However, we don't want to read about realistic people. Most of us want to read about Dragon Queens, and Warlords, and ass kickers and schemers. Sansa is none of these things yet. She gets abused for like 5k pages. That's frustrating because reasonable people recognize that she doesn't deserve it. On the other hand there is a core fandom that does want to read about characters like this, and we're constantly disagreeing on the merits of this character.

[Ser_Patreck]

She frames it as a question because she's still afraid of him, but we know, Sansa knows, and Tyrion knows that she means NEVER. That's why he climbs off the bed and talks about whores being there for him. Tyrion doesn't give Sansa permission to not sleep with him - don't be preposterous.

I guess I must have dreamed about the "I won't sleep with you untill you're ready" part, or the part where Sansa tenses up for sex without even thinking about resisting.

It's Sansa's statement that makes Tyrion react the way he does. He still wants her to come to him during the marriage and bring her joys, sorrows and lust as he puts it, but he knows she won't. That is defiance.

No, that's an abused and terrified girl walling up inside herself. Big difference. BIG difference.

When Cersei is talking to Sansa about her own marriage struggles she too connects it to the wider issues of how women are not empowered in patriarchal societies. On that wedding night, Sansa confronts the very real issue of being forced into a marriage and having absolutely no desire for one's husband. By choosing not to give in, she's not only prioritising her true feelings, but directly undermining patriarchal dominance within the home. She's defying the all powerful male desire here, and it's a nice touch how she assumes a female gaze and subjects Tyrion's body to a thorough analysis where he comes up lacking. To deny the presence of these larger issues is a spectacular failure to understand the themes Martin is exploring related to womanhood and sexuality in the novels.

She did choose to give in. She did tensed up and tried to desire him. She couldn't get excited and Tyrion decided not to go through with it. Only a very biased reading could misconstrue a biological reaction and a third party's decision as active defiance.

[Castel]

I think this is probably the core of the reasonable criticism for Sansa. She's a realistic portrayal of a little girl living the life she's lived. However, we don't want to read about realistic people. Most of us want to read about Dragon Queens, and Warlords, and ass kickers and schemers. Sansa is none of these things yet. She gets abused for like 5k pages. That's frustrating because reasonable people recognize that she doesn't deserve it. On the other hand there is a core fandom that does want to read about characters like this, and we're constantly disagreeing on the merits of this character.

That is a perfectly valid meta argument, and it should stay as such. If people try to turn it into an argument in-story against Sansa and not Martin, it doesn't hold up as well.

[brashcandy]

That's actually exactly what he does. He tells her she's not forced to have sex with him, I'm sorry but it's exactly what it is.What he wants is irrelevant. He clearly gives her a choice.

No. What Tyrion says is that he will not touch her until she wants him to. This is no true allowance for desire as there is the natural assumption within his words that one day she will want him. It is Sansa who then makes the real act of defiance by stating that it will be never. She is the one who draws the line in the sand. Tyrion's desires are still very relevant, hence why he bitterly comments that whores are for men like him.

[Ashg]

But Jaquen offed Weese for Arya...thus giving her the headway to escape, as her new boss was a drunk weakling.......

So he DID set it up for her.

No he didn't. I think you're getting mixed up with the timeline of her story. After Weese was killed Arya was under Pinkeye but it wasn't until Roose came and took over and she was working for him that she escaped. Jaquen was long gone by this time.

[Monica21]

She frames it as a question because she's still afraid of him, but we know, Sansa knows, and Tyrion knows that she means NEVER. That's why he climbs off the bed and talks about whores being there for him. Tyrion doesn't give Sansa permission to not sleep with him - don't be preposterous. It's Sansa's statement that makes Tyrion react the way he does. He still wants her to come to him during the marriage and bring her joys, sorrows and lust as he puts it, but he knows she won't. That is defiance.

When Cersei is talking to Sansa about her own marriage struggles she too connects it to the wider issues of how women are not empowered in patriarchal societies. On that wedding night, Sansa confronts the very real issue of being forced into a marriage and having absolutely no desire for one's husband. By choosing not to give in, she's not only prioritising her true feelings, but directly undermining patriarchal dominance within the home. She's defying the all powerful male desire here, and it's a nice touch how she assumes a female gaze and subjects Tyrion's body to a thorough analysis where he comes up lacking. To deny the presence of these larger issues is a spectacular failure to understand the themes Martin is exploring related to womanhood and sexuality in the novels.

To the OP, the above is why. Conversations about female characters (and Sansa specifically) never fail to turn into the beginnings of a Women's Studies paper.

I love Sansa. She has, IMO, one of the best character arcs in the book. I will never however, buy into this idea that she's defying the patriarchy or that her story arc is about sexual agency. That's the preposterous thing. GRRM is writing a story about a adolescent/teenage girl who very quickly learns the pain of naivete. And, brashcandy, do you have evidence that Martin is exploring these themes or are you exploring them for him?

[Monica21]

No. What Tyrion says is that he will not touch her until she wants him to. This is no true allowance for desire as there is the natural assumption within his words that one day she will want him. It is Sansa who then makes the real act of defiance by stating that it will be never. She is the one who draws the line in the sand. Tyrion's desires are still very relevant, hence why he bitterly comments that whores are for men like him.

There is no natural assumption for Sansa, even if there might be for the reader. Sansa believes she is given a choice and responds to that choice. And her answer to that question is not defiance.

[Kittykatknits]

Opportunity squandered is still opportunity squandered.

No, it was a smart decision. He was a broken man at that point.

You missed the part where she is unable to see Dontos' motives and foils the plan single-handedly by letting Littlefinger, and thus the Lannisters, know about it.

Dontos has given her reasons to trust him. She saved his life and later tried to protect her from being beaten.

Since we are making assumptions, I will go ahead and assume that Tyrion would free her from their marriage once they reached Braavos.

That's a mighty big assumption especially since he previously thought on how he wants her and WF. We also see absolutely zero mention in Dance that he is thinking of giving her an annulment.

[Natalie_S]

By the way Tyrion himself does not perceive it as defiance, since he thinks that his dutiful wife would consummate the marriage if only he asked her to. He clearly knows that he could do it if he wanted to, but willingly decides not to.

Dontos had given her every reason to trust him. Funny, earlier in this thread she's punished for not trusting enough people. Now, she's punished for trusting someone.

He offered her this the same day as her escape plan. Why would she want to go with Tyrion to the Free Cities when she could take a risk and actually be free of him?

Sorry, but I think that Dontos's story was unbelievable from the start.

Only Sansa, with her love for songs and chivalry, could believe that the love for her would inspire him to become a "real knight". Come on!!!

I think that Sansa was much better off with Tyrion, who had proved that wouldn't touch her if she wasn't willing, rather than with Dontos, who was a drunkard and had already tried to creepily kiss her in the Godswood. When Brienne asks people if they had seen a fair maid of thirteen etc, everybody answers that she's probably not a maiden anymore, and if it was up to Dontos they'd probably be right.

Instead she ended up stripped of her identity (and therefore protection: as for Arya, it's much more easy to assault/rape/murder Nan or Alayne than Arya or Sansa of Winterfell) and at mercy of a creep who treats her as his daughter/potential lover. Ewww.

[Ser_Patreck]

To the OP, the above is why. Conversations about female characters (and Sansa specifically) never fail to turn into the beginnings of a Women's Studies paper.

And, brashcandy, do you have evidence that Martin is exploring these themes or are you exploring them for him?

/thread.

By the way Tyrion himself does not perceive it as defiance, since he thinks that his dutiful wife would consummate the marriage if only he had asked her to. He clearly knows that he could do it if he wanted to, but willingly decides not to.

Actually, what I perceive here (I might be wrong, tough) is a consistent desire to deny Tyrion's morally sound decision. Like, saying it's not really his merit, that it was Sansa who decided not to go through with the bedding ritual. That his only part is that of a bitter watcher.

[The Fallen]

` So, was I right about the ferocity of female posters coming to the defense of female characters leading to very long threads? I went to bed after my post and there was just my reply. I wake up the next day and there's 100.

I haven't read every post, but I can understand women getting upset and aggravated about the attitude some men have towards female characters. I've also noticed the dismissive attitude some male posters have against some of the plight of the female characters. But on the flip side, some women take any criticism of a female character to be slanderous against all women and then dig in for a battle.

It's too easy to dismiss how the women feel by simply pointing out that these are fictional characters, because there is a legitimate point being made by the women when they say that those same dismissive attitudes some male posters have towards female characters are the same ones that men have towards women in the real world.

Ultimately, there's a delicate balancing act when discussing female characters with females. I try to pick my battles and concede points that are not as important to my overall argument (i.e. Sansa being strong.) while sticking to my guns on other points (Sansa hurting the Starks cause more than Ned). I know that some posters, both male and female, will never concede a point against the character that they're defending and we have to agree to disagree, or in some cases I just end the debate to avoid turning it into a pissing contest where no one benefits.

BTW: As I'm typing this I've watched about 20 responses go off.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

I never said any of the characters are anything to do with Women's rights and etc.

So I agree with you on that, Mr. Darcy :)

But I do think that I get defensive over some of em. I just can't understand why age and situation isn't factored into feeling bad rather than disliking Sansa.

[brashcandy]

To the OP, the above is why. Conversations about female characters (and Sansa specifically) never fail to turn into the beginnings of a Women's Studies paper.

I love Sansa. She has, IMO, one of the best character arcs in the book. I will never however, buy into this idea that she's defying the patriarchy or that her story arc is about sexual agency. That's the preposterous thing. GRRM is writing a story about a adolescent/teenage girl who very quickly learns the pain of naivete. And, brashcandy, do you have evidence that Martin is exploring these themes or are you exploring them for him?

The textual evidence speaks for itself. If you follow Sansa's arc closely, you realise that these are the very issues Martin is exploring. I'm frankly not surprised that there are some who continue to want to see her as a victim with no agency or authority at any point in her story.

There is no natural assumption for Sansa, even if there might be for the reader. Sansa believes she is given a choice and responds to that choice. And her answer to that question is not defiance.

Of course Sansa realises the natural assumption, why do you think she then responds by stating never. Tyrion isn't expecting this and he continues to feel bitter about it throughout the marriage, but Sansa remains committed to her decision.

By the way Tyrion himself does not perceive it as defiance, since he thinks that his dutiful wife would consummate the marriage if only he asked her to. He clearly knows that he could do it if he wanted to, but willingly decides not to.

Right. This is the Tyrion who also thought that his "dutiful" wife was going to the godswood to pray. Is it not obvious to all that people radically underestimated and misread Sansa's character?

I think that Sansa was much better off with Tyrion, who had proved that wouldn't touch her if she wasn't willing, rather than with Dontos, who was a drunkard and had already tried to creepily kiss her in the Godswood. When Brienne asks people if they had seen a fair maid of thirteen etc, everybody answers that she's probably not a maiden anymore, and if it was up to Dontos they'd probably be right.

A man who wants to fuck you and keep you captive vs. a man who just looks for sloppy kisses and is helping you escape. Hard choice.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

A man who wants to fuck you and keep you captive vs. a man who just looks for sloppy kisses and is helping you escape. Hard choice.

Ugh, Dontos is a serious creeper. C'mon baby, you make me a better man, how about a kiss?

Even as a guy that makes my skin crawl. I think Tyrion was a safer bet honestly.

[brashcandy]

Ugh, Dontos is a serious creeper. C'mon baby, you make me a better man, how about a kiss?

Even as a guy that makes my skin crawl. I think Tyrion was a safer bet honestly.

Dontos is a drunk fool. He genuinely wants to help Sansa and feels valued by her trust in him. On the night of their escape the poor man dresses up like a knight because he feels heroic. As for the sloppy kisses I'm amused that they've even been brought up. Dontos was not a threat to Sansa like LF or Tyrion and Natalie's claim that Sansa would have lost her maidenhood in Dontos's company is just another one in a long line of absurd points she's made in her endless attempt to whitewash Tyrion.

[Monica21]

The textual evidence speaks for itself. If you follow Sansa's arc closely, you realise that these are the very issues Martin is exploring. I'm frankly not surprised that there are some who continue to want to see her as a victim with no agency or authority at any point in her story.

This "textual evidence" is apparently widely misinterpreted. The textual evidence is this:

Tyrion: We don't have to have sex if you don't want to.

Sansa: What if I never want to?

Tyrion: That's what whores are for.

Reading anything into that other that what is on the page is nothing more than overreading and hoping there is more to those lines than is actually on the page.

Of course Sansa realises the natural assumption, why do you think she then responds by stating never. Tyrion isn't expecting this and he continues to feel bitter about it throughout the marriage, but Sansa remains committed to her decision.

You've conveniently left out her "What if?" She never says "I will never have sex with you." Ever. Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and the results in the bedroom have far less to do with Tyrion and Sansa than the circumstances surrounding them. What does she think? "They've made me a Lannister." She's not sleeping with him because she's defying the patriarchy, but because she hates her circumstances and she trusts that Dontos will soon make her marriage irrelevant anyway.

Right. This is the Tyrion who also thought that his "dutiful" wife was going to the godswood to pray. Is it not obvious to all that people radically underestimated and misread Sansa's character?

Why wouldn't he think that? She is of the North and everyone knows the Starks keep the Old Gods. I don't think people underestimate Sansa's character, but I definitely think there are a handful of people who overestimate her motivations.

A man who wants to fuck you and keep you captive vs. a man who just looks for sloppy kisses and is helping you escape. Hard choice.

Tyrion just wants to fuck her and keep her captive? Where is that in the text? Yes, Tyrion wants to have sex with his wife. He wants her to desire him. He also wants her to bring him her joys and sorrows. He wants the whole package. He wants a wife not just in name only.

[Garlan Marius]

Actually, what I perceive here (I might be wrong, tough) is a consistent desire to deny Tyrion's morally sound decision. Like, saying it's not really his merit, that it was Sansa who decided not to go through with the bedding ritual. That his only part is that of a bitter watcher.

This is vital to the discussion of that bedding scene. It's disingenuous to the text to take what is explicitly stated and refuse to acknowledge it because it does not fit with one's preconceived desire to make it mean something else.

[Natalie_S]

so, if the choice was up to sansa, if for a dramatic change of character tyrion had asked her to consummate the marriage, what do you think she'd done? Kick him in the balls and run to the godswood?

As to dontos "genuine desire to help her", i think you might have missed the part in which sansa discovers that he was working for LF for gold, and he just put the sloppy kisses in for personal amusement.

[Kittykatknits]

To the OP, the above is why. Conversations about female characters (and Sansa specifically) never fail to turn into the beginnings of a Women's Studies paper.

I love Sansa. She has, IMO, one of the best character arcs in the book. I will never however, buy into this idea that she's defying the patriarchy or that her story arc is about sexual agency. That's the preposterous thing. GRRM is writing a story about a adolescent/teenage girl who very quickly learns the pain of naivete. And, brashcandy, do you have evidence that Martin is exploring these themes or are you exploring them for him?

If you look at the story arc at the story arcs for every single female character within ASOIAF, the same themes keep emerging, love, sex, marriage, and agency. Asha ran away from a proxy marriage and wants to marry Qarl. Brienne rejected suitors. Dany gave up her desires for an arranged marriage and her feelings afterwards are painful to read. Cersei vocalizes and brings all these arguments together for the reader. Sansa is no exception to this rule. Sansa, unlike any other female character in the story, has met and interacted with a large variety of women who have all taken control or are attempting to take control of their lives. This includes her mother, Cersei, Arya, Mya, Randa, and more. Not only that, the issue of Sansa's sexaulity comes up multiple times in her final Feast chapter. Of all those themes that I mentioned earlier, Sansa is the only character arc that contains every single one of them.

There are many themes within Sansa as a character. She's lost her agency and is growing up so we see that transformation from child to adult. There is also her growing political role which is usually described as her becoming a player in the game. But, if we only focus on those aspects, then readers are missing out on quite a bit else that is happening with her.

These themes are again reflected in many other symbolic ways as well. Its shown in the food she eats, ripe fruit with the juice falling down. It's in the clothes she wears, the colors and styles reflecting which themes are currently most dominant in her arc.

By the way Tyrion himself does not perceive it as defiance, since he thinks that his dutiful wife would consummate the marriage if only he asked her to. He clearly knows that he could do it if he wanted to, but willingly decides not to.

Tyrion's opinion does not make something fact so that does not mean anything. There are numerous examples in the text where he is drawing conclusions about Sansa that are wrong.

Sorry, but I think that Dontos's story was unbelievable from the start.

Only Sansa, with her love for songs and chivalry, could believe that the love for her would inspire him to become a "real knight". Come on!!!

I think that Sansa was much better off with Tyrion, who had proved that wouldn't touch her if she wasn't willing, rather than with Dontos, who was a drunkard and had already tried to creepily kiss her in the Godswood. When Brienne asks people if they had seen a fair maid of thirteen etc, everybody answers that she's probably not a maiden anymore, and if it was up to Dontos they'd probably be right.

Instead she ended up stripped of her identity (and therefore protection: as for Arya, it's much more easy to assault/rape/murder Nan or Alayne than Arya or Sansa of Winterfell) and at mercy of a creep who treats her as his daughter/potential lover. Ewww.

She chose to trust the man who would help her escape from KL and get away from the Lannister,s the family that destroyed hers rather than stay with the man who helped to keep her a prisoner. The man that she does not want to be married to.

Why is it so hard for people to respect the fact that she doesn't want to be married for Tyrion?