Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[Daemul]

Jon Snow is not dead. At page 1060 DWD, after reading "Ramsay Snow's" letter, Jon and his loyal mates, Horse and Rory, replace Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch.

"With me," John told them, when the time came."

This is ambiguous, but I think it means that Jon, at least, went into the armoury and possibly came out wearing some sort of concealed armour - at least on his back.

The attack scene on page 1064, says that the first strike was deflected and barely cut his skin. The second, was prevented. The third in the belly, admittedly, sounds serious:

"He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it."

When Jon pulls the dagger out, there is no mention of blood (as was the case with the neck scratch): " In the cold night air the wound was smoking" Just body heat escaping into the cold air?

And lastly : "He never felt the fourth knife." Certainly not if he was wearing armour.

I think another clue that Jon is armoured comes from the mention of the Shieldhall (page 1060) as the site for the highly controversial meeting.

I agree with this, Jon was stabbed a maximum of 2 times, I know people who have survived much more numerous stabbings. I never even thought for a second that Jon Snow was dead until I joined this forum a couple of days ago and found people who thought he was, which was a huge surprise to me. If he was stabbed with a sword then it would have crossed my mind, but not with a dagger, even though they can do huge damage, a sword would be a certain death weapon.

£10 his wound(s) aren't even that bad to begin with.

[mrlukeduke]

I agree with this, Jon was stabbed a maximum of 2 times, I know people who have survived much more numerous stabbings. I never even thought for a second that Jon Snow was dead until I joined this forum a couple of days ago and found people who thought he was, which was a huge surprise to me. If he was stabbed with a sword then it would have crossed my mind, but not with a dagger, even though they can do huge damage, a sword would be a certain death weapon.

This doesn't add up for me personally.

"“When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”"

Why would he ask why if he knew of or pre-planned the attack? Also the first slash almost cut open his throat! That's some pretty risky planning. Kill move. Surely we can discount pre-knowledge or planning.

OK. Possibly he was going on hunch because of Mel's prophecy, to which at last he hearkens, for some unknown, totally out-of-character reason. Fine. But then why chain up Ghost? Why not summon guards.

If he didn't know at all (as I suspect), was it pure coincidence he was supposedly in armour? I doubt he'd have dressed for the march to Winterfell yet! And... he definitely bled. Twice! He was slashed, then brutally stabbed.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt

Martin likely uses "smoking" the second time around because it's cold, and hot blood causes "smoke" (steam). Also you can't say "blood" too much, it's obvious and would be poor writing. You have to use synonyms or, as he does here, indirect description. He was in great pain too.

Look I'm not saying he's definitely dead. No-one knows ofc. I just don't like the reasoning employed for his "obvious" survival when that single passage there seems to me to negate it pretty strongly

[rohit39]

I know the topic has been there for quite sometime, and its gone on for 9 pages, but i have to say that the title for this post Resurrecting Jon Snow (Spoilers) is the worst title ever. I mean, you might as well not give a spoiler warning at all. Is it possible for any of the mods to change the title now? I'm lucky to have been done with the books. But others who might not have gotten past aDWD yet, might have real bad luck and come across this title right on the forums home page, which is where i saw it.

[mrlukeduke]

I thought it was in The Winds of Winter section?

[rohit39]

It is, but the problem is the most recently commented topic shows up on the forum homepage right, from personal experience i can tell you that the possibilities of spoilers from that are extremely annoying. Hence the appeal to make sure the titles are not a dead giveaway to the plot.

[Babeldygob]

I believe that after Jon's death Melisandre will at some point believe he is Azor Ahai. Since his body is preserved in an ice cell she will have no choice but to try and ressurect him. She'll no doubt want King's Blood for this ritual and Shireen seems like a viable candidate. I believe however that since Shireen has greyscale and her blood is therefor not pure, something will go wrong with the ritual and Jon might come back to life, but he won't be as before, there will be some kind of nastyness. Remember I don't think we will have unJon, because this would not be a simple Firekiss like the one Thoros used on Beric, but true King's Blood, which means that Jon will be alive like before, but as I said there will be some kind of handicap.

[mrlukeduke]

I don't think the AA prophecy will play out so literally, if at all, but if it does then I'd like it to be the greatsword of Dawn, using the blood of Danaerys (sorry Dany fans).

It is, but the problem is the most recently commented topic shows up on the forum homepage right

Hmm, then the forum admins might want to consider putting TWoW into its own location outside of ADwD.

[davekd]

Maybe Jon will be resurrected as a wight, and shuffle his way down to King's landing and strangle Cersei. The prophecy does say she will have the life choked out of her by a valonquar, and Jon just happens to be Robb's little brother.

Or maybe a sentient wight, like his uncle, Cold hands.

Or Melisandre will breathe life into him again like Thoros of Myr does with Beric.

[mrlukeduke]

Or Catelyn.

[Mace Cooterian]

(The stone dragon part will come later when he is in the crypts of Winterfell and re-emerges from them with the truth of his parents; haven't quite worked this one out yet but that's what I'm leaning towards, not an actual stone dragon).

I do like the notion about the stone dragon not being an actual stone dragon. There is precedence in the dreams descriptions of dragons; at least two come to mind from the Dunk & Egg novellas.

In the Hedge Knight, (IIRC) one of Maekar's sons dreamed of a black dragon falling on a battle field. The reference was not to an actual black dragon, but to Baelar Breakspear who fell on the tourney grounds (can't remember the actual location). The second reference comes from The Mystery Knight, where someone dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls. The reference is not to a real dragon, but rather to Aegon (Egg), who revealed himself and apparently...his dragon had woken.

[Budj]

Not to be nit picky because I think the correction adds more to your point, but the dream was that a dragon that Dunk killed fell on him and he got out from under it unharmed. The end of the story Baelor Breakspear falls onto / into Dunk's arms after the tourney when they are talking off the battlefield.

The Targ 'dragon' dreams are often pretty literal (your second example is another great one). Which is why I find Aemon's dreams of a dragon flying over snow at the wall so tragic. If R+L=J that was a sign the whole time and I think out of anyone in the series Aemon would be happy to find another living 'dragon.'

[Mace Cooterian]

Not to be nit picky because I think the correction adds more to your point, but the dream was that a dragon that Dunk killed fell on him and he got out from under it unharmed. The end of the story Baelor Breakspear falls onto / into Dunk's arms after the tourney when they are talking off the battlefield.

The Targ 'dragon' dreams are often pretty literal (your second example is another great one). Which is why I find Aemon's dreams of a dragon flying over snow at the wall so tragic. If R+L=J that was a sign the whole time and I think out of anyone in the series Aemon would be happy to find another living 'dragon.'

@Budj

Good reponse and thanks for clarifying the falling dragon. After a re-read and with quite a bit of time on my hands before TWOW, I sought out for the Dunk & Egg novellas at our local library. I have the 3rd one on my end table (Warriors), which needs to be returned and was only recollecting the dream from the Hedge Knight.

Would ask that you post the reference on Aemon's dream about the dragon flying over snow. I think that would be a good one to parse over again.

[Budj]

I'll try and find it.... I think he mentions it while on the ship with Sam.

[jongtu]

Someone mentioned the sacrifice. AA plunged the sword into his wife. Someone really close to him. If Jon were to be AA he would metaphorically no longer be a stark(ice).

For the sacrifice. I see Jon plunging the sword into Ghost. I believe that is the one thing that is close to him currently. It seems just right for Jon to give up this old life and fulfill his destiny.

[sumant30]

Someone mentioned the sacrifice. AA plunged the sword into his wife. Someone really close to him. If Jon were to be AA he would metaphorically no longer be a stark(ice).

For the sacrifice. I see Jon plunging the sword into Ghost. I believe that is the one thing that is close to him currently. It seems just right for Jon to give up this old life and fulfill his destiny.

That is absolutely not possible.

[armidil0]

That is absolutely not possible.

Why not? I personally think that Jon might have to sacrifice ghost. It's horrible and I will cry and squeal like a little bitch but I can see it as possible. Like if Jon really is dead (don't believe it, but assuming), he Ghost might be a sacrifice to bring him back to life. Like if the three forging of Lightbringer are Jon's identities. Bastard->LC of the NW-> AA.

Especially if Jon does end up getting a dragon. I don't think he can have both a direwolf and a dragon. One would take up his whole time to train and concentrate on anyway. Also having a direwolf would be useless if you could hop on a dragon and fly.

That's why I don't want Jon to get a dragon. Idc if R+L=J or not, just don't give him a dragon.

[Elohssa]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but at the wall dead people tend to be burnt right away to prevent them coming back. The way I see it Jon hops into Ghost. Mel does her fire magic dance thing but instead of Jon being all good he’s more Khal Drogoish, cause his soul (whatever) is stuck in Ghost. They put him somewhere until Jon, with the help of Bran figures out how to get back into himself. And if you must armidiI0, Jon might need to kill Ghost in the process.

PS – during all that Jaime is hanging out with Uncatelyn and we see just how messed up and UN-Catelyn she has become but don’t worry Jon will be right as rain.

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

Ok some interesting theories here. My 2 cents is that Jon is dead, he took multiple stab wounds, there was an obvious motive and it works well to release him from his oath to the Nights Watch which is handy if GRRM wants to give him title or marry him off at the end to have little Targ/Stark hybrid babies with some wench (Possibly future kings/queens??). Anyway, back on topic, Jon being dead, Mel can revive him... involves fire, he comes out all changed and badass, all the dudes who stabbed him and the rest of the folk up at the wall bow down because its now badass revived Jon Snow (Targ), oh yeah but I also believe he will warg into ghost for a wee bit because that would be cool and there has been big build ups to that (sorry cba citations)... then basically Jon takes the lead in the game of "Who wants to be AA" and kicks some chilly-zombie (Other) ass. I think it will all tie in neatly with him learning his lineage (Targ/Stark) and his sword may go all burning, or he could get a new one, don't know but yeah I think he is dead, will come back, and generally be a more kickass version of my second fave character (of course after our beloved imp).

Thanks for reading, and no, I am not this illiterate, usually! I just couldn't be bothered writing this 'all proper like' so deal with it. :)

Oh yeah, this is my second post but forgot my login details so it is the first on this account, yay me!

[Budj]

The issues I have with Mel resurrecting Jon is that there are hints she is actually like UnCat. That would require her to give up her life to save Jon and I'm not sure she would be willing to do that since she still believes Stannis is AA.

Additionally...how can the red kiss bring someone back to life when their life is already in another creature? (Ghost)

Unless Mel knows the same spell MMD used on Drogo I don't think she will be the one to help.

Now if Jon is wounded I would like to hope that the remaining wildlings take Jon's body away from the wall. We don't need a Victarion situation on our hands with Jon. I'd rather he heal up naturally and re-enter his body without the help of Mel. I think this scenario is less likely though because I think Jon coming back will be a grandiose gesture via rising from a fire that will really grab people's attention / spread like wild fire (bad pun intended) because if his 'identity reveal' is going to be powerful at all it will need some gusto to prevent nay saying. (If it actually matters to the plot....which I think it will)

[Ser Alasdair the Bard]

The issues I have with Mel resurrecting Jon is that there are hints she is actually like UnCat. That would require her to give up her life to save Jon and I'm not sure she would be willing to do that since she still believes Stannis is AA.

Additionally...how can the red kiss bring someone back to life when their life is already in another creature? (Ghost)

Unless Mel knows the same spell MMD used on Drogo I don't think she will be the one to help.

Now if Jon is wounded I would like to hope that the remaining wildlings take Jon's body away from the wall. We don't need a Victarion situation on our hands with Jon. I'd rather he heal up naturally and re-enter his body without the help of Mel. I think this scenario is less likely though because I think Jon coming back will be a grandiose gesture via rising from a fire that will really grab people's attention / spread like wild fire (bad pun intended) because if his 'identity reveal' is going to be powerful at all it will need some gusto to prevent nay saying. (If it actually matters to the plot....which I think it will)

I like your ideas but I am all for him dieing and being resurrected I think it fits more with the various prophecies, allows him to leave the nights watch "legally" as he would have died and come back so thus free of obligation (in future thus can be king or lord). Also I can see a wounded Jon one, stagnating the story up at the wall, we only have a few books left and GRRM is know for dragging things on in some regards, not that I have had any problem thus far (love long books) I can forsee if he has to heal up naturally it will take ages, will have low impact in terms of people learning about him, it could kill any lineage reveal and generally isnt as epic if he is "reborn in fire" or something akin to that.